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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Incorrect on both counts. I simply realize that long dead corpses who haven't occupied the land in 600 years have little stake in it, as opposed to people who were booted out of their homes in living memory.
    So how many generations need to pass before we can allow the Jews to call their homeland 'home' again? When you say "living memory", do you mean those who were alive in 1948? Does the conflict end once everyone from that period has died?

    I look forward to your usual glib 1 line response.

  2. #162
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    You have explained why the Arabs continue to hate Israel, that I can understand. But why everyone else? This just can't be more white man hate. And why is it predominately from the left?
    They generally don't "hate Israel". What they take issue with is Israel's current leadership, and some of their specific actions, like pushing illegal settlements into occupied territory, which is a war crime.

    We don't support war crimes, whoever's committing them. Israel doesn't get a free pass on war crimes because reasons. That's it.

    Whenever Israel attacks a missile launch site that Hamas has used from a kids school, the left are marching in the streets calling Israel murderers. Yet when Hamas bombs a civilian bus killing dozens on Israelis, there is not a march to be found. Why? Why the double standard?
    There is no double standard. Nobody is applauding the terrorism. We all agree it's terrible. There's no real discussion to be had; that bus bombing was awful, and not justified, and we all agree.

    You only hear about the other stuff because some folks, like yourself, will blindly side with Israel even when their actual actions are not defensible on their merits. We take issue with bombing the launch site because Israel killed innocent civilians, and generally failed to even hit their military target, because Hamas tends to not stick around. We don't have an issue with Israel taking out launch sites, we have an issue with them killing innocent Palestinians to do so.

    Look through these forums alone, you see plenty of leftist posters savage Israel and yet say nothing when Israelis are murdered, or worse, say they deserve it. The hypocrisy is sickening, and there is only one reason for it.
    There's no hypocrisy, at all. We don't wring our hands over every single child's death to cancer, but that doesn't me we don't care about dying kids, it means we all agree that's tragic but there's nothing we can really do about it, and nothing to be discussed.

    Your entire argument here is wildly irrational and horribly misguided. I can use your own rationale and ask you why you support pedophile rape-murders, because you haven't spoken out specifically against them here (by which I mean this forum, going by a quick search for some choice keywords I just ran). Is that accurate? You support pedophiles kidnapping, raping, and murdering children? Or have you just not spoken out against it because it's obviously terrible, and thus there's no reason to specifically condemn it?

    Obviously, I think that's an asinine argument to make. It's the equivalent of a "When did you stop beating your wife" question. You've presumed a straw man, and declared hypocrisy on everyone you disagree with because of that straw man. It's nonsense.


  3. #163
    I am Murloc! zephid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlWarrior View Post
    Illegal by whose standards again? yeah..
    According to the UN.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They generally don't "hate Israel". What they take issue with is Israel's current leadership, and some of their specific actions, like pushing illegal settlements into occupied territory, which is a war crime.
    Nope, the left were still 'taking issue' when Shimon Perez was leading Israel, and he won Noble Peace Prize. Not buying it, you can't blame this all on Ben Netanyahu.

    We don't support war crimes, whoever's committing them. Israel doesn't get a free pass on war crimes because reasons. That's it.
    I don't accept Israel has committed war crimes, but that's a whole other argument.

    There is no double standard. Nobody is applauding the terrorism. We all agree it's terrible. There's no real discussion to be had; that bus bombing was awful, and not justified, and we all agree.
    There is a complete double standard here. Israel is persecuted by the UN more than any other nation. Anyone coming to Earth from another planet would think Israel was the most evil empire the world has ever known. Why no UN resolutions for Turkey subjugating the Kurds? You can't even get a resolution to condemn Syria ffs, but you can to condemn Israel alright.

    You only hear about the other stuff because some folks, like yourself, will blindly side with Israel even when their actual actions are not defensible on their merits. We take issue with bombing the launch site because Israel killed innocent civilians, and generally failed to even hit their military target, because Hamas tends to not stick around. We don't have an issue with Israel taking out launch sites, we have an issue with them killing innocent Palestinians to do so.
    See, this is important. Look at your words, you are condemning Israel for the actions of Hamas. They deliberately use schools and playgrounds for this very reason. What is Israel supposed to do? Let their civilians be bombed? This is the most disgusting of all practices by Hamas, endangering their own people, yet you don't even mention it.

    There's no hypocrisy, at all. We don't wring our hands over every single child's death to cancer, but that doesn't me we don't care about dying kids, it means we all agree that's tragic but there's nothing we can really do about it, and nothing to be discussed.
    So Israelis die, shit happens. But Palestinians die....



    Your entire argument here is wildly irrational and horribly misguided. I can use your own rationale and ask you why you support pedophile rape-murders, because you haven't spoken out specifically against them here (by which I mean this forum, going by a quick search for some choice keywords I just ran). Is that accurate? You support pedophiles kidnapping, raping, and murdering children? Or have you just not spoken out against it because it's obviously terrible, and thus there's no reason to specifically condemn it?

    Obviously, I think that's an asinine argument to make. It's the equivalent of a "When did you stop beating your wife" question. You've presumed a straw man, and declared hypocrisy on everyone you disagree with because of that straw man. It's nonsense.
    Wow really? You talk about paedophiles and rape then admonish me for straw man arguments? I never once said anyone supported terrorism, my point is the unfair and hypocritical persecution of Israel. Quite frankly, your point here is extremely weak and unbecoming.

  5. #165
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Nope, the left were still 'taking issue' when Shimon Perez was leading Israel, and he won Noble Peace Prize. Not buying it, you can't blame this all on Ben Netanyahu.
    I'm not. These issues predated Netanyahu, though he's not helping matters.

    I don't accept Israel has committed war crimes, but that's a whole other argument.
    Then you're just unaware of the facts, because it's a known fact that Israel has. They've been sanctioned multiple times by the UN over doing so. This isn't a question of "belief", any more than gravity is. It's seriously like a guy saying "oh, I'm not a murderer, I just kill blacks, and I don't believe blacks are people, so it can't be murder, see?" That just makes him factually wrong, it isn't a valid argument.

    See, this is important. Look at your words, you are condemning Israel for the actions of Hamas.
    False. Obviously false. That's just slander.

    They deliberately use schools and playgrounds for this very reason. What is Israel supposed to do? Let their civilians be bombed? This is the most disgusting of all practices by Hamas, endangering their own people, yet you don't even mention it.
    I literally mentioned it specifically. Why are you lying?

    As for what should Israel do; use tactics and methods that minimize collateral damage. They could, and don't.

    Wow really? You talk about paedophiles and rape then admonish me for straw man arguments?
    That's not "a straw man". That's called "an example". If I were actually making that argument, it would be a stupid and inflammatory straw man, but I wasn't; I was presenting it as an example of how dishonest your tactics were. Because that argument was structurally the same as your own. If you don't like it, then maybe you should rethink your own argument. That was sort of the point of that exercise.


  6. #166
    I stopped caring about those 2 terrorist states along time ago!

    And yes iam British and yes i do remember what happened before 1947!

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    False. Obviously false. That's just slander.

    I literally mentioned it specifically. Why are you lying?

    As for what should Israel do; use tactics and methods that minimize collateral damage. They could, and don't.
    Re-read what you posted. You said "Israel killing innocent civilians" twice. You are specifically saying Israel is the bad guy. Hamas deliberately shoot at Israeli civilians while deliberately hiding behind Palestinian children, and yet the only blame here is Israel. I don't know, wouldn't it be better for Hamas to maybe not hide behind children? Is there a small chance, that they are totally to blame here? I'm pretty sure Israel didn't ask Hamas to shoot at them from civilian buildings.

    And please, let us all know what these tactics are that Israel should be implementing to minimise collateral damage. Are they not doing enough?

    Methods of Avoiding Civilian Casualties

    The following are some ways the IDF uses in order to avoid civilian casualties. While these warnings ruin the element of surprise and can help the enemy escape or call for his neighbors to serve as human shields, the IDF believes that it must take these steps whenever possible in order to avoid harming innocent bystanders.

    1. Phone calls: During the last 24 hours of the operation, thousands of Israeli phone calls were made to residents of the Gaza Strip, warning them of IDF strikes in the area.

    2. Leaflets: The Israel Air Force has dropped leaflets over Gaza that warn civilians to “avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives.”

    The leaflets read in Arabic:

    “Important announcement for the residents of the Gaza Strip:

    For your own safety, take responsibility for yourselves and avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities and those of other terror organizations that pose a risk to your safety. Hamas is once again dragging the region to violence and bloodshed.

    The IDF is determined to defend the residents of the State of Israel. This announcement is valid until quiet is restored to the region. Israel Defense Forces Command.”

    3. Diverting missiles in mid-flight: During Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09, the IDF aborted many missions seconds before they were to be carried out, due to civilians being present at the site of the target. The following video is an example of an IAF airstrike that was called off as the missile was on its way to the target.

    4. Roof Knocking: “Roof knocking” is when the IAF targets a building with a loud but non-lethal bomb that warns civilians that they are in the vicinity of a weapons cache or other target. This method is used to allow all residents to leave the area before the IDF targets the site with live ammunition.

    5. Pinpoint Targeting: The IDF, whenever possible, singles out terrorists and targets them in a way that will endanger few or no bystanders. This can often be hard to do, since terrorists prefer to hide in crowded areas. Watch the pinpoint strike on Hamas leader Ahmed Jabari:

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    This is pretty boring. The dislocation of Palestinians is an ongoing event. I'm not terribly interested in people who just want to wait out the clock until they can stop caring about it. I find it pretty hard to fathom that people are really struggling to understand what should be a fairly intuitive point.
    On behalf of the Middle East conflict, I would like to apologise for boring you.

  9. #169
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Re-read what you posted. You said "Israel killing innocent civilians" twice. You are specifically saying Israel is the bad guy.
    And that's why you're struggling. This is world politics. There is nothing so simple as "good guys" and "bad guys". Pretty much every nation does bad things. Most also do good things. Those good things do not mean the bad should be waved off.

    By trying to figure out who "the bad guy" is, you're just looking to ignore all the good on one side, and ignore all the bad on the other. It's an obviously biased perspective, rather than a reasoned and informed one.

    Hamas deliberately shoot at Israeli civilians while deliberately hiding behind Palestinian children, and yet the only blame here is Israel.
    See, case in point. Nobody was defending that. You're claiming that we are, and that's a dishonest straw man. I already explained this.

    And please, let us all know what these tactics are that Israel should be implementing to minimise collateral damage. Are they not doing enough?
    Rather than firing rockets back, send in armed teams. It puts their military personnel at greater risk, which is why they don't want to do it, but that's what military personnel exist to do, take those risks to defend civilian lives.

    I'm going to ignore the cross-post from the IDF, since the argument wasn't that they make some efforts, it was that they don't make enough effort.


  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Rather than firing rockets back, send in armed teams. It puts their military personnel at greater risk, which is why they don't want to do it, but that's what military personnel exist to do, take those risks to defend civilian lives.

    I'm going to ignore the cross-post from the IDF, since the argument wasn't that they make some efforts, it was that they don't make enough effort.
    You are wrong. IDF stands for Israeli defence forces. not civilian defence forces or palestinian defence forces. They are expected to lay their lives on the line to defend israeli citizens. Not palestinian bystanders who may or may not be sympathetic towards them.

    Yes, civilian casualties are horrible, but if I was a father, I wouldn't risk my sons life to die at the hornets nest of gaza, to save the lives of those who want me to die. The IDF does more than any other military to avoid such casualties, all in the reasonable domain. Putting lives of soldiers at risk is not reasonable.

    And if you think Israel doesn't do enough to minimize civilian casualties, I encourage you to read the post written by Torto.
    Last edited by Eyechewer; 2017-01-10 at 07:02 AM.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    There is no double standard. Nobody is applauding the terrorism. We all agree it's terrible. There's no real discussion to be had; that bus bombing was awful, and not justified, and we all agree.
    You really should speak for yourself. While one may argue that this recent attack was on soldiers, even in the case of the Tel Aviv restaurant shooting last year where only civilians got killed about half of the posters in a similar thread were going like "suits you well" and "if someone has moved into my backyard, I'd do the same" bs. What exactly is that if not applauding terrorism? I'm glad you don't, many others do, if it's against the Jews/Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You only hear about the other stuff because some folks, like yourself, will blindly side with Israel even when their actual actions are not defensible on their merits. We take issue with bombing the launch site because Israel killed innocent civilians, and generally failed to even hit their military target, because Hamas tends to not stick around. We don't have an issue with Israel taking out launch sites, we have an issue with them killing innocent Palestinians to do so.
    Just curious, do you consider yourself to be a military expert? Don't you think that decisions of whether Israel does enough to prevent the civilian casualties on the enemy side should be made by neutral experts rather than by just a random guy that takes their info mostly from propaganda sites or from some biased and usually unprofessional organization sites? I'm too lazy to look up a link but I remember an international committee of experts coming to a conclusion that IDF went above and beyond to prevent the civilian casualties during the last Gaza war, and that the ratio of the civilian/combatant deaths was very similar to other war in the region despite the fighting happening in much harder conditions , however it went mostly ignored by world media as it doesn't suit their agendas.

    You are claiming in another post that IDF has a way to reduce the civilian deaths yet chooses not to. Have you ever asked yourself which side actually benefits from the Palestinian civilian deaths? Hamas, a terrorist group that has zero respect for human life on either side but gets massive PR points from Pal deaths, both among the Pals themselves and on international stage;or Israel who get no benefit whatsoever yet get their international reputation destroyed, and as a result are denied a chance at a decisive victory at such a war due to the world's pressure? Even the biggest Jew/Israel haters (not saying you are one) would agree that Jews are pragmatic people. Do you really think we'd deliberately hurt our international standing so badly? For what? Just for fun? Or you really think that killing around 2k people in a nearly 2m population Gaza would somehow weaken them significantly, especially as they are known to reproduce like rabbits, and are also more than happy to give up their lives for their religion/whatever? It'd seem that any reasonable person would realize that Hamas want to capitalize on those civilian deaths for political gains, while it'd be in Israel's best interest to reduce them. Did you, for example, know that many of the dead children presented by Hamas were actually 15-16 y/o armed combatants?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyechewer View Post
    You are wrong. IDF stands for Israeli defence forces. not civilian defence forces or palestinian defence forces. They are expected to lay their lives on the line to defend israeli citizens. Not palestinian bystanders who may or may not be sympathetic towards them.

    Yes, civilian casualties are horrible, but if I was a father, I wouldn't risk my sons life to die at the hornets nest of gaza, to save the lives of those who want me to die. The IDF does more than any other military to avoid such casualties, all in the reasonable domain. Putting lives of soldiers at risk is not reasonable.

    And if you think Israel doesn't do enough to minimize civilian casualties, I encourage you to read the post written by Torto.
    So I suppose defending Palestinian citizens should be left up to the Palestinian military? Oh wait, they don't have one, meaning that anyone who believes in defending Palestine from foreign aggression either has to just shut up and keep their head down, or join a terrorist group. This is

  13. #173
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandis View Post
    Just curious, do you consider yourself to be a military expert? Don't you think that decisions of whether Israel does enough to prevent the civilian casualties on the enemy side should be made by neutral experts rather than by just a random guy that takes their info mostly from propaganda sites or from some biased and usually unprofessional organization sites?
    Oh, come on. Are you supposedly an expert? I'm simply repeating known analyses;

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.642397


  14. #174
    I still don't understand how a news thread turned into another bash Israel thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Oh, come on. Are you supposedly an expert? I'm simply repeating known analyses;

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.642397
    How about you study about this before you publish other people's work.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    So yeah, terrorist attack in israel again.
    Resistance warriors. You know, illegal occupation of a country by a foreign army...
    What's the problem?
    -=Z=- Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek! -=Z=-
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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Phlegethon View Post
    Resistance warriors. You know, illegal occupation of a country by a foreign army...
    What's the problem?
    Sounds like terrorists, using schools, amulances, mosques etc etc to launch missles and store ammo or move terrorists around, human shields daily knife attacks, i can go on and on here. Recistance warriors, not doing so well now are they? reminds me of that fake picture of a hamas tank, a joke.

    Ramming a truck into 4 girls in the 20's who probably never even seen combat does not sound very warrior'ish to me, rather cowardly if you ask me, there is plenty more where they attack civilians with cars or knifes shouldnt they attack the army more?

    Yeah israel have hit alot of civilians with misslies usualy after hamas have just launched missles into civilian areas, israel also do alot to avoid casulties with leaflets and used recorded telephone messages anouncing the attacks, thats abit more then hamas does now isnt it?

    If they are resistance fighters then so are groups like the pkk who are labaled a terrorist group and should remain so.


    Again israel is not innocent but calling hamas recistance warriors is abit to much.

    The soldier who executed a palestinian for example will face charges, i would like to see the palestinians do that to their own instead of praising the attacks calling them martyrs and brainwashing the children into doing the same.,
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2017-01-10 at 03:23 PM.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Ramming a truck into 4 girls in the 20's who probably never even seen combat does not sound very warrior'ish to me, rather cowardly if you ask me, there is plenty more where they attack civilians with cars or knifes shouldnt they attack the army more?
    It was the army. 4 soldiers. 3 lived in west bank settlements. killed on land captured. Only reason they use trucks and knives is because thier missiles couldn't even hit the ground if it wasn't for gravity.

    I don't think Hamas claimed it, just praised it. (scummy thing to do for a general shithead act). Think the PFLP claimed it = marxists.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    It was the army. 4 soldiers. 3 lived in west bank settlements. killed on land captured. Only reason they use trucks and knives is because thier missiles couldn't even hit the ground if it wasn't for gravity.

    I don't think Hamas claimed it, just praised it. (scummy thing to do for a general shithead act). Think the PFLP claimed it = marxists.
    PFLP just riding the wave try to score bonus points for something they didn't do, general assumption right now is that it's ISIS, the neighborhood he came from "Jabel Muqaber" for a while had ISIS sentiment in the air so to speak.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And that's why you're struggling. This is world politics. There is nothing so simple as "good guys" and "bad guys". Pretty much every nation does bad things. Most also do good things. Those good things do not mean the bad should be waved off.

    By trying to figure out who "the bad guy" is, you're just looking to ignore all the good on one side, and ignore all the bad on the other. It's an obviously biased perspective, rather than a reasoned and informed one.
    And...voila, the heart of new-left, neo-marxist obfuscation. There is no real right or wrong, you can never take a side, when criticizing one side you must criticize the other equally, who are we to judge other cultures and civilizations we do bad things too...

    This is how you engineer a generation of moral dullards who can't tell the difference between using human shields and being deterred by their use. Who think building apartments is as criminal as firing rockets. Yes, yes, yes, of course every country isn't perfect, but North Korea is a hell of a lot shittier than France.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Sounds like terrorists, using schools, amulances, mosques etc etc to launch missles and store ammo or move terrorists around, human shields daily knife attacks, i can go on and on here. Recistance warriors, not doing so well now are they? reminds me of that fake picture of a hamas tank, a joke.

    Ramming a truck into 4 girls in the 20's who probably never even seen combat does not sound very warrior'ish to me, rather cowardly if you ask me, there is plenty more where they attack civilians with cars or knifes shouldnt they attack the army more?

    Yeah israel have hit alot of civilians with misslies usualy after hamas have just launched missles into civilian areas, israel also do alot to avoid casulties with leaflets and used recorded telephone messages anouncing the attacks, thats abit more then hamas does now isnt it?

    If they are resistance fighters then so are groups like the pkk who are labaled a terrorist group and should remain so.


    Again israel is not innocent but calling hamas recistance warriors is abit to much.

    The soldier who executed a palestinian for example will face charges, i would like to see the palestinians do that to their own instead of praising the attacks calling them martyrs and brainwashing the children into doing the same.,
    There. Are. No. Missiles. Or. Rockets. In. Palestine.
    That's just not true, nor is it possible. They hardly have water and just 1 or 2 hours of electricity per day. You know, because the extermination camp they set up just can't have that.

    There is also no link between hamas/IS and the attacker. The soldiers were part of the army, they signed up for that. The risk in occupying a country is that you die in the process.

    Also, Israel is not a country, it should not exist.

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