[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Meiffert]

I am not sure what you mean by that. Haste affects our GCD, yes, but for many abilities it also affects their individual cooldowns.

In fact, not many, but all basic rotational abilities (CS, Judgment and Blade of Justice) have their CDs reduced by the same margin.
It probably makes it easier to imagine if you think about your rotation not in terms of seconds, but in terms of GCDs.
You get a charge of CS every 3 GCDs, the cooldown of BoJ is 7 GCDs and the cooldown of Judgment is 8 GCDs. This doesn't change with haste.

Zeal/baseline CS recharge at 30% haste is ~3.46 seconds.

This is correct and since your GCD at 30 % haste is 1.1538, it takes 3 full GCDs to get another charge of Zeal.
Similarly, you get more Blade of Wrath procs per minute, but if measured per GCD, the amount is the same.


As a result, your "rotation" will stay the same in the sense that you use the same abilities. For example, let's say that somewhere in the middle of the fight, you get this sequence: CS - Judge - BoJ - TV - CS - empty (everything is on CD) - etc.
Increasing your haste will not change that, the entire sequence will be faster in terms of seconds, but the empty global cooldown will still be there at the same position.

It is also worth mentioning that in terms of seconds, the empty global is shorter, but there will be more of them.
For example: with 0 haste, you have 40 GCDs every minute, let's say that 37 of them are used and 3 of them are empty, that is 7.5 % or 4.5 seconds.
With 30 % haste, you will have 52 GCDs per minute, 48.1 on average will be used and 3.9 empty, leaving you with total wait time of 3,9 * 1.1538 = 4.5 seconds again.

[urw]

you not taking into account the -1 HP req on next TW/DS which for ex for me on last Guarm kill procced 16 times and gave ~5 "free" TW.

[Nition]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

guys, you noticed that versality was gimped for us? my 9% food buffed rip. Crit going to be beast now again and versality=haste, mastery ofc weakest?
Did any1 did the 7.1.5 stat weight simulation already?

Good lord I knew Convergence of Fates was going to be our best trinket, but not by that much. That's ludicrous.

[Snowfunk]

I dont remember the last time I had downtime during Crusade and I have 22% haste.

I've been beating at the dummies today and there's no way 22% is enough, I'm sitting at 24,23 and that's not enough.
Being forced to do a 3 HP TV (this mean's you're falling behind) or casting Judgement when it's not immediately needed to refresh the duration does not count. Both are sub-optimal plays.

Anyways, If you have the Cloak, there is no way Zeal beats out TFoJ.
If you don't, then there might be hope for this talent.

You'd need "high" haste for it, possibly 30%(+?). With high enough haste you could surely get a stronger Crusade performance, however the gain need to also make up for the loss during Crusade downtime, where TFoJ is stronger.

Tomorrow the cloak will get nerfed, but so will secondary stats. Weaker Cloak but also harder to stack haste. Probably won't change current conditions that much.
[/IMO]

[dnicks17]

I've been beating at the dummies today and there's no way 22% is enough, I'm sitting at 24,23 and that's not enough.
Being forced to do a 3 HP TV (this mean's you're falling behind) or casting Judgement when it's not immediately needed to refresh the duration does not count. Both are sub-optimal plays.

Anyways, If you have the Cloak, there is no way Zeal beats out TFoJ.
If you don't, then there might be hope for this talent.

You'd need "high" haste for it, possibly 30%(+?). With high enough haste you could surely get a stronger Crusade performance, however the gain need to also make up for the loss during Crusade downtime, where TFoJ is stronger.

Tomorrow the cloak will get nerfed, but so will secondary stats. Weaker Cloak but also harder to stack haste. Probably won't change current conditions that much.
[/IMO]

Do you have Liadrin's?

I know you think it's irrelevant, but it really isn't. It's almost the sole reason why Zeal is able to pull ahead of TFoJ when you don't have the cloak. The HoPo generation from it basically eliminates all downtime.

At least it did before today. The nerf to the ring may be the end of Zeal.

Blizz did a great job with diversifying ret talents. Everyone will be running 1112212 for everything.

[Deleted]

Good lord I knew Convergence of Fates was going to be our best trinket, but not by that much. That's ludicrous.

It doesn´t changes much compared to now. we are utterly depended on FCM until we get CoF. Since we will have just 2 (max 3) changes per week to get it the amount of effort we can put into getting this is comfortably smaller.
No more 5 hours sessions farming vaults just 2 raids per week. woho^^

- - - Updated - - -

I've been beating at the dummies today and there's no way 22% is enough, I'm sitting at 24,23 and that's not enough.
Being forced to do a 3 HP TV (this mean's you're falling behind) or casting Judgement when it's not immediately needed to refresh the duration does not count. Both are sub-optimal plays.

under crusade you don´t build to 5. you spend asap. I recommend thetes guide for you on this.

You'd need "high" haste for it, possibly 30%(+?). With high enough haste you could surely get a stronger Crusade performance, however the gain need to also make up for the loss during Crusade downtime, where TFoJ is stronger.

Under crusade there isn´t much of a difference between 30% haste or 20% haste baseline. the high amount of haste from crusade and the DR make the difference barely noticeable.

Tomorrow the cloak will get nerfed, but so will secondary stats. Weaker Cloak but also harder to stack haste. Probably won't change current conditions that much.
[/IMO]

The loss of stats is not that big with the scaling nerfs only when you start getting more nighthold gear you will notice that getting up to 30% haste is night impossible.

- - - Updated - - -

I know you think it's irrelevant, but it really isn't. It's almost the sole reason why Zeal is able to pull ahead of TFoJ when you don't have the cloak. The HoPo generation from it basically eliminates all downtime.

zeal is very competitive even without the ring. for me it is only a 200 dps less on patchwerk.

[dnicks17]

Justice Gazed HoJs critting for 600k during my WQs.

Get hype.

[Deleted]

Justice Gazed HoJs critting for 600k during my WQs.

Get hype.

it´s still worthless. if they push it to one hitting dungeon bosses then I might consider it. or allowing it to stun stun immune mobs and bosses. In that case and only then it might be worth considering this steaming pile of s%$*

[dnicks17]

it´s still worthless. if they push it to one hitting dungeon bosses then I might consider it. or allowing it to stun stun immune mobs and bosses. In that case and only then it might be worth considering this steaming pile of s%$*

Haha yeah.

At least I can go back to Liadrin's+Sephuz with the secondary stat buff on necks/rings.

[Snowfunk]

Do you have Liadrin's?

I know you think it's irrelevant, but it really isn't. It's almost the sole reason why Zeal is able to pull ahead of TFoJ when you don't have the cloak. The HoPo generation from it basically eliminates all downtime.

At least it did before today. The nerf to the ring may be the end of Zeal.

Blizz did a great job with diversifying ret talents. Everyone will be running 1112212 for everything.

Yes, I have both Cloak & Ring.
And obviously the ring isn't irrelevant, that's just me being stupid.
It could help you generate enough (to not get locked out and i'm sticking with, if you have the cloak there is no enough) HP during crusade, but to my finding, it does not. Maybe at really high haste.
And after the nerf, it's looking grim.

[Gloriandus]

I'm not that great of a player, but I am competent and know how to the Ret spec.

Post-patch my DPS is really down, like 100k-level down. I'm only doing dungeons and LFR, but the numbers I'm seeing are much lower, using the same gear from pre-patch (several crafted pieces now upgraded 10/10) and Liadrin's ring. I'm playing it the way I did yesterday and for months before, and my hands didn't suddenly fall off.

I know I should sim and all that to track this issue down; I just can't say much more than things just "feel" off from where they were just yesterday.

[Redblade]

it´s still worthless. if they push it to one hitting dungeon bosses then I might consider it. or allowing it to stun stun immune mobs and bosses. In that case and only then it might be worth considering this steaming pile of s%$*

Only way to make it useful outside of questing is to give it HP generation, without it there is no way to compete.

[Ryuji]

Only way to make it useful outside of questing is to give it HP generation, without it there is no way to compete.

Seems to be the only use is cheesing mobs in quests. Stun --> Wake --> JV to usually one-shot piddlies. Has beefy stats at least? Although mastery is bleh.

[dnicks17]

Fuck me. ES is simming 23k dps ahead of FV for me.

Ughh. I don't want to use this talent.

I guess it adds a little bit of a skill cap to our 3 button rotation, but man...

- - - Updated - - -

It looks like FCM is less effective with ES. You can actually equip a real trinket, so I guess it's got that going for it.

My 870 Eye, 880 Nightmare Eggshell and 895 Ursoc's Claw all sim about 4k higher.

[Lorelya]

Fuck me. ES is simming 23k dps ahead of FV for me.

Ughh. I don't want to use this talent.

I guess it adds a little bit of a skill cap to our 3 button rotation, but man...

- - - Updated - - -

It looks like FCM is less effective with ES. You can actually equip a real trinket, so I guess it's got that going for it.

My 870 Eye, 880 Nightmare Eggshell and 895 Ursoc's Claw all sim about 4k higher.

my 885 Ursocs (with gem socket) was even simming higher :/

[arrav]

Is the current iteration of simcraft working for 7.1.5?

[Redblade]

ES sims way higher for me but limited testing on dummy says simc might not be correct on that. Been a lot of debate on that subject today but so far no consensus reached as far as I can tell.

[Nition]

ES sims way higher for me but limited testing on dummy says simc might not be correct on that. Been a lot of debate on that subject today but so far no consensus reached as far as I can tell.

I'm assuming you made sure it always landed inside the judgement window?

[Redblade]

I'm assuming you made sure it always landed inside the judgement window?

As far as I could tell, was just a few quick tests so didn't set up any oversized bar or anything to make sure though. Will test it more later tonight if no consensus has been reached by then.

[Feenuxik]

After the first changes on PTR, I saw that my Crusade with belt was 6% haste and dmg per stack, but now on live I still see "only" 3,5% per stack but I have a buff that gives me those +20% in wings. Did they change this at some point to flat +20% increase?