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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    The annoying thing is there's really no reason they shouldn't be able to teach biology, but for whatever reason, people who deny evolution tend to be really determined to understand it as poorly as possible.
    Reminds me of the south park episode!

    or the dumb responses to evolution.

    "If we evolved from monkeys, why are they still around!! CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!"

  2. #122
    Given what many allegedly 'moderate' Muslims are prone to denying (women's rights/LGBT rights/etc, if Pew Research and others are anything to go by), never mind those of a more hardline persuasion, evolution is the least of our worries.

  3. #123
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    You think faith is made after relgions, but not that faith existed when the first human were born.

    It dropped again.

    How can you be human without having faith in what you are doing or believe in?
    No, I don't. The above is what you think I said, because you don't understand the topic. Faith is not exclusive to religion. When you quote me say faith, don't assume I mean religion.

    Simple, the same way you do a mindless job for 8 hours a day...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  4. #124
    [QUOTE=Jakisuaki;44115949My religion teacher was an atheist.[/QUOTE]
    OT, but I think that's super positive tbh. It gives the teacher a better foundation to teach objectively about religion

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Well, here is the funny thing.

    People who are not reading(or reading manipulative newspapers), tends to relay thier idenity on 1 thing. Science. If they ask them about thier relgion guess what, atiesm.

    Im talking about how stupid people are.
    that usually means that people believe what is proven, instead of what some fairy tale book tells them. why exactly is that stupid? Oh, and atheism isnt a religion. it is literally the absence of religion. because atheism doesnt tell you crazy fairy tales that contradict science, atheists accept science easier.

  6. #126
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    At no point have I condoned xenophobic rhetoric, so how is any of this relevant to me? I have said that nothing should be beyond scrutiny, as allowing scutiny means that we can enact pragmatic policy to deal with problems.
    You are bitching about xenophobia stoping the debate and you have the gull to ask how it applies to you? Maybe stop bitching about...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Great, but in Germany the members of other major religios groups DO NOT have a siginificant problem with evolution. Thus I make this about the major group that stands out, muslim students aspiring/training to be teachers. Those belonging to the free church group do not make up a significantly high enough part of the population or student body to make an impact, but part of the concerns I have about this trend apply to them all the same.

    The question remains: Why is the percentage that reject scientific theory of evolution in that group so high? What needs to be done to change this in the long term? How can negative effects for the education of future students due to this trend be prevented?
    The solution is quite simple, education is the answer. That doesn't mean people have to believe what is being taught, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught. That is exactly why one can make comparisons to other religions and countries. The more you subject people to data, the more you inform them. If they choose to be ignorant, that's on them.

  8. #128
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If you want to debate, so others don't shut down the conversation, do it by actually involving your self in the conversation, instead of repeating that it's irrelevant. How many Christian students don't believe in evolution? How many Jews don't? Is the issue not believing evolution or Muslims not believing evolution? Because it seems like you keep repeating xenophobia is a distraction, instead of responding to a guy active in this thread denying evolution, who I doubt is Muslim... so, what is the issue?
    I have already pointed out religious beliefs conflicting with science should not come into consideration in education.

    I picked up on that poster saying "People outside EU:This is how the majority is in EU. They suffer from xenofobia and it's really bad." and that attitude is what I am criticising now.

    You joined in with that line of conversation, if you don't like it then hey ho.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    That is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. The problem isn't even that they ask that question, but you answer it and they continue asking it the next day. It's just stubborn refusal to learn, which if earlier posts in this thread are to be believed, is based on some truly bizarre belief that understanding something is the same as believing in it.
    The main problem is their definition of "Theory", where they believe its just a guess, whereas its actually:

    "a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science." - scientific theory.

    And even with all the evidence there is, there is no silver bullet so to speak to point at the exact moment we evolved from the lesser creature into what our definition of homo sapien is. We keep finding fossils that edge us closer and closer, but finding that exact moment is hard to do. Although, I feel even with that, it wouldn't be enough.

  10. #130
    Denying evolution is on the same level as believing that earth is flat. Evolution is so much more than just a weak theory, there is evidence everywhere. I don't know why being religious means you have to ignore hard facts. Just because god didn't create everything just as written in the bible that does not mean there is no god. Blindly believing in myths/stories/whatever is never a healthy thing.

  11. #131
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You are bitching about xenophobia stoping the debate and you have the gull to ask how it applies to you? Maybe stop bitching about...
    I am not being xenophobic, so it has no relevance to me. The other poster was trying to say that people debating this are xenophobes, which is a tactic to stifle debate by demonising the opposition.

  12. #132
    In many places lately, it really doesn't matter what they think, they have to teach the cirriculim and cannot express their opinions in the classroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bigzoman View Post
    Meant Wetback. That's what the guy from Home Depot called it anyway.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    https://fowid.de/meldung/akzeptanz-e...nd-und-tuerkei

    While >70% of muslim students reject evolution as a scientific theory, the same does not hold true for other major religious groups in Germany such as catholics and evangelical christians. Among these groups >80% accept evoltion. Only the freechurch group had similarly abysmal results, only 40% agree accept evoltion as scientific theory.

    It is hard for me to find socially acceptable words for the feelings of disappointment and worry I feel when I think what such a generation of people who strive to become educators and people in positions of relative power and influence over youth means for the future of my country and the civilisation I live in as a whole.

    I dont know how other countries do it, but under these circumstances it becomes increasingly cynical to argue that continued influx of people with beliefs like these is a boon for future generations.
    I don't know how it is in Germany, but in France a teacher cannot teach whatever he likes or believes in class, he has a curriculum to follow. He can believe in mermaids for all I care, important is not to say it as fact to my kids. And they don't, it is very strict. To be honest, I am inclined to think it is the same over there. And when you say ''continued influx of people like these'', what do you mean? I thought immigrants and refugees are an unskilled mass of sheep, now all of a sudden they are your academia destroying your science classes? Is that easy to become a teacher these days?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Nilinor View Post
    The main problem is their definition of "Theory", where they believe its just a guess, whereas its actually:

    "a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science." - scientific theory.
    I think what causes a lot of confusion is that scientists themselves are loose with the word 'theory.' Things like String Theory are mathematical theories but physical hypotheses, but are unfortunately called 'theory' all the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  15. #135
    Well as long as they aren't forcing their PoV on their pupils I don't really see why a teachers personal beliefs are of any concern.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Then the same should apply to those who believe in evolution. Classes dealing with evolution should never be mandatory. Have them as optional classes.
    You literally can't teach biology, bio chemistry or medicine without teaching evolutionary theory.

    Just because you don't understand the meaning of words that doesn't change facts.

    I strongly recommend you read the dictionary definition of "scientific theory" which is different than the colloquial meaning of "theory".

    https://global.britannica.com/science/scientific-theory

    Teaching sciences requires you to teach an empirical reality, religion belong in a different realm of academia. Science is empirical, religion is anecdotal. Someone who has no grasp of something like evolutionary theory because "opting out", automatically opted himself out from a wide range of advanced academic education.

    But the chances of me convincing you to reflect and learn more about something you dismiss as "not real" is simply zero. At the point where you are in your life, your parents, your nurturing environment and your education system has utterly failed to instill basic scientific skills or the ability for critical thinking. You and many like you are essentially a lost cause, because its not just that you don't understand what we are talking about, but you outright refuse to learn about it.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Americans have been slow to accept evolution and we still have more creationists than people who believe in evolution. We just tell them to keep their personal beliefs out of the classroom and go about our day. Your geometry teacher doesn't need to believe in natural selection.
    Yeah boii. Indoctrination sure is one helluva way to ensure that people agree with your worldview, isn't that one correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    There is sort of a devolution going on in Europe at the moment. All progress of the last 70 years will eventually be close to nullified.

    Tolerance, scientific progress, social progress etc. are all on a slope. Both because of importing people from countries that pretty much in medieval times as of the effect this seems to have on the local people that live between them/grow up with them.
    Let's not confuse decades of scientifical progress with purely imaginary and indoctrionary dogma.
    Last edited by mmoca19c50d8b5; 2017-01-10 at 04:53 PM.

  18. #138
    Islam needs the same treatment Christianity had in western culture. Ridicule and scorn for thier regressive view untill the majority change their ways.


    [Infracted]
    Last edited by Endus; 2017-01-10 at 04:42 PM.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The solution is quite simple, education is the answer. That doesn't mean people have to believe what is being taught, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught. That is exactly why one can make comparisons to other religions and countries. The more you subject people to data, the more you inform them. If they choose to be ignorant, that's on them.
    Well we try. But the results are not pretty and thats despite the fact that education in Germany is not perfect but free and public schools are staffed and funded. Unfortunately we have groups from different cultural backgrounds in one and the same classroom, so one and the same educational approach results in group specific outcomes. Less authoritarian teaching approaches do not resonate well with a significant number of students from highly authoritarian (and mostly partriarchal) households. The resulting difference in grades (especially math and literacy in German) are steep.
    The suggestion to seperate these students from the rest and apply alternative teaching methods and communication strategies more tailored to the tone they are accustomed to has no been well recieved. The political nature of the system and the governing political attitudes between people tasked with education makes ideological standpoints trumping pragmatic approaches a sad reality. Modell projects for develop alternative solutions for the present problems are long term solutions that might come to late if this trend continues.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    I don't really find that explanation satisfactory for exactly the sort of reason I outlined above. If they understood it, but simply rejected it as a factual description, I'd find that a better explanation. However, when taking a stubborn refusal to learn into account, I think it makes it clear that it's simply an excuse to reject the idea rather than any sort of honest concern about the certainty of the idea.
    It's complicated really.

    The thing, there isn't a single damned thing you can do to convince creationists that they are wrong. Creationism is a component of their identity, of how they see, interpret and understand the world (disconnected from reality). For them to change their view on this issue, would basically require to completely alter who they are, and how they see their place in the world.

    Some people who are either innately capable of such critical thinking can do this on their own, disconnected from their environment, others require education and nurturing to posses these skills, and this is why Creationists are pushing their agenda so hard in education, especially early education, they understand that the best way to fostering this environment of ignorance is by robbing kids of an objective empirical education.

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