Study: Majority of muslim students training to be teachers in Germany deny evolution

[Deleted]

I know, i was trying to be sarcastic to all of the stupid creationist who cabt understand what does theory mean in the scientific verse

Sorry then, my sarcasm-o-meter had a power failure

[Machismo]

But not one word in the sentence even implies that. The conversation naturally turned towards the group these attitudes are most strongly represented in, not the group that is numerically the largest. Especially when I phrased it as an "influx of people with attitudes like these". Obviously this refers to influx of people with anti-science bias into education, not immigration as a general topic although the two are undoubtedly strongly related. I think I mentioned this in a reply to someone else, the data in this study is very unlikely to include any people that have arrived as refugees in 15/16 (a popular hot topic) and have neither the knowledge of the german language or qualifications to attend university. Rather this data represents attitudes found in students who live here as the maybe 3rd or 4the generation, which is the reason I find this so particularly worrying.

I made a point where different groups need different approaches to attain a single common goal, I think I reached you with that one at least.

Your last sentence described discrimination perfectly.

[Aggrophobic]

The theory of gravity is obviously false, it's just a theory

But theory means... I... sigh... never mind.

[Runenwächter]

You are denying that you said something that you said. You are not even ready to have a conversation about your own words...

You claim to want to push more authoritarian forms of education for certain students. That is discrimination, go look up the definition of the word. I cannot talk to you, if you don't understand the basic meaning of words. Heck, I'll chalk it up to a language barrier. If that's the case, maybe you should try having this conversation in your native tongue, or on a German forum. As it stands, you are clearly trying to say something, then get upset when we bring up exactly what you are trying to say.

Do you mean either discrimination as in: The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
If that is the case the different treatment would be based upon needs, serve the wellbeing of a person that is yet not an adult, require the general consent of the parent and not be founded in prejudice but both empirical data and educational expertise. Sex, Age and Race do correlate but are not basis of any decision.
or
discrimination as in: Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another
Then the moral imperative is to treat different things differently in a moral fashion as to attain the most desirable result, which should be providing according to the developmental status and needs of the child, not the rigid moral preconceptions of the educator. At no point did I call one group bad or inferior to the other, what I criticized was always the outcome of not providing students with an alternative approach to the mono-culture you are so eager to defend.

So where exactly am I advocating for unjust discrimination? You arent quoting. And even though I repeatedly brought it to your attention you are handwaving the issue at the heart of it: that authoritarian structures do not simply disipate over a few generations. that the disadvantage this puts young, especially male, students in, is a contributing factor to continuing this tradition.

You say this problem does under conditions that you dont specify disappear in a unspecified number of generations, even though we have had this problem for multiple generations and the educational approach has become increasingly liberal towards students, all leading to the reasonable conclusion that this is neither the sort of problem that simply disappears over time nor that the one-fits-all approach is working for a group that miraculously seems to refill its ranks for decades now.

I have a hard time figuring out if you even made an argument that can be proven true or false beyond the scope of what is already determined by observing past results and if so what it is exactly.

[Iamashaman]

When do people realize that you can't teach anything to monkeys....


[Infracted]

[Machismo]

Do you mean either discrimination as in: The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
If that is the case the different treatment would be based upon needs, serve the wellbeing of a person that is yet not an adult, require the general consent of the parent and not be founded in prejudice but both empirical data and educational expertise. Sex, Age and Race do correlate but are not basis of any decision.
or
discrimination as in: Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another
Then the moral imperative is to treat different things differently in a moral fashion as to attain the most desirable result, which should be providing according to the developmental status and needs of the child, not the rigid moral preconceptions of the educator. At no point did I call one group bad or inferior to the other, what I criticized was always the outcome of not providing students with an alternative approach to the mono-culture you are so eager to defend.

Both are applicable. It is discrimination. Now, you may wish to discriminate for a reason you feel is just, but then again, that is what almost every government does when they choose to discriminate.

You can provide anything, forcing it upon them is an entirely different issue. I'm simply defending freedom, nothing more, nothing less. You are the one calling for more authoritarian measures.

- - - Updated - - -

When do people realize that you can't teach anything to monkeys....

Except, you can teach things to monkeys...

I love it when people try to be bigoted, but it just shows their ignorance.

[Vorkreist]

the christian evolution deniers because they are more than 3x as many as the muslim evolution deniers.

Out of what @Hole did you pull this enlightening fact ?

I understand you are too busy heartbleeding over muslims to pay attention to what you write but still .......

[Garnier Fructis]

Out of what @Hole did you pull this enlightening fact ?

I understand you are too busy heartbleeding over muslims to pay attention to what you write but still .......

He's talking specifically about Germany if you follow the conversation back a few pages, where Christians way outnumber Muslims.

[Runenwächter]

Both are applicable. It is discrimination. Now, you may wish to discriminate for a reason you feel is just, but then again, that is what almost every government does when they choose to discriminate.

You can provide anything, forcing it upon them is an entirely different issue. I'm simply defending freedom, nothing more, nothing less. You are the one calling for more authoritarian measures.

No. I can treat someone differently on the basis of inherent attribute (sex, age, race given as common examples, as opposed to individualy determinable things like behaviour and actions) and if the different treatment is unjust it is discrimination according to the definition of the Oxford dictionary.

None of the conditions are satisfied by what I suggested. Treating someone differently, even if the outcome is different or even objectively better or worse on an individual basis, is not by itself discrimination according to the primary definition.

The secondary definition defines discrimination in a much broader general sense, deprived of moral implication. Applying this secondary definition and infering a moral meaning after that is just bait and switch.

Are you sure this is your native language?

[xindralol]

The Muslim plague in Europe is tantamount to the BLM plague in the US >.>
Not a whole lot one can do to change it ... hopefully Trump will go in the right direction at least.


[Infracted]

[JohnBrown1917]

The Muslim plague in Europe is tantamount to the BLM plague in the US >.>
Not a whole lot one can do to change it ... hopefully Trump will go in the right direction at least.

Trump will thankfully have no effect on Europa.

[xindralol]

Trump will thankfully have no effect on Europa.

Oh yeah I meant in the US haha. Europe is pretty much lost at this point.

[Malacrass]

I have no problem with people denying evolution, doesn't matter if it's catholics (you don't mention that there was also a "learning" process, or "tolerance" process in the last 2 decades, it used to be much worse) or muslims.

Believe whatever you think works for you, as long as you don't try to push it on me.

[Deleted]

Out of what @Hole did you pull this enlightening fact ?

I understand you are too busy heartbleeding over muslims to pay attention to what you write but still .......

"According to your link, 46% of the german population identify as christians, while 4,4% identify as muslims. From 2003-2016 there were 2.86 million students in germany, about 10% of these students study to become a teacher, that leaves us with 286.000 future teachers. 46% of these future teachers are christians which means we have a total number of 131.560 future christian teachers. 20% of these christians deny evolution, which means 26.312 christian evolution deniers.
From the 286.000 future teachers, 4,4% are muslims which means 12.584 future muslim teachers. 59% of these future muslim teachers deny evolution, which means 7.424 future muslim evolution deniers.
So we will have to deal with 26.312 christian evolution deniers and 7.424 muslim evolution deniers. That means almost 4x as much christian evolution deniers compared to muslim evolution deniers, given these numbers, it doesn't makes much sense to focus on the muslims if you are truly worried about evolution deniers and the impact they will have their students (if any at all, since I doubt they want to be biology teachers). We have a bigger fish to fry and it's not the muslims."

https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...n-hochschulen/

http://www.studienwahl.de/de/thema-d...tm?print=true&

I feel sorry for you.

[W1sp]

The amount of people who don't know the difference between a "theory" and a "scientific theory" is to Damn high.

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh yeah I meant in the US haha. Europe is pretty much lost at this point.

Its fun to have your dreams about Europa going down, but I do have to disappoint that those are just your dreams.

[Slant]

I dont know how other countries do it, but under these circumstances it becomes increasingly cynical to argue that continued influx of people with beliefs like these is a boon for future generations.

Let me know when you found a practical problem in our lives that can be solved by the debate evolution vs. creationism. I'll be happy to tell you what their boon is or isn't. Until then, how about you focus on actual problems to spur your Xenophobia on instead of talking about non-issues only Americans are interested in?

[derpkitteh]

as long as they keep it to their selves and teach without any issues, they can go about their ignorance.

[Noradin]

https://fowid.de/meldung/akzeptanz-e...nd-und-tuerkei

While >70% of muslim students reject evolution as a scientific theory, the same does not hold true for other major religious groups in Germany such as catholics and evangelical christians. Among these groups >80% accept evoltion. Only the freechurch group had similarly abysmal results, only 40% agree accept evoltion as scientific theory.

It is hard for me to find socially acceptable words for the feelings of disappointment and worry I feel when I think what such a generation of people who strive to become educators and people in positions of relative power and influence over youth means for the future of my country and the civilisation I live in as a whole.

I dont know how other countries do it, but under these circumstances it becomes increasingly cynical to argue that continued influx of people with beliefs like these is a boon for future generations.

Can you read the source you linked to us?
They asked 39 muslims in Germany and 236 in Turkey, then added them together.
Among those 39 only 8 believed evolution was based on speculation and not on facts and 8 were undecided.

Such small sample sizes are not really a good basis for these kinds of statistics and do not justify giving two significant digits in the results.

Also not that people who have a muslim background but do not actively practise their religion would not be included under "muslims" in this study, they would be counted among all the other atheists (the German source used a more fitting name for this category).

[Slant]

Oh yeah I meant in the US haha. Europe is pretty much lost at this point.

Fun fact. If we slaughtered every Muslim in Germany, it would still be less than half of the Jews that Germany killed during WW2. Just to give you some perspective on how tiny the problem is. But hey, I heard you're dealing with another mass shooting? Tell us more about how Europe is lost.