Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

The following are from current latest nightly Simcraft which includes almost all of the hotfixes. The vulnerable window of 7s is not in this download, however.

895 gear profiles (the heroic tier sets with appropriate ilvl other gear). No legendaries.

BM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


MM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


SV w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


Currently rerunning all talent combinations without tier and doing a 3 target no tier sim as well.

- - - Updated - - -

New nightly up with vulnerable window updates. Will be rerunning talents.

[Deleted]

With the buff of MS and the nerf of AiS, it could be better now to not lose any marking targets proc to cast Marked Shot. Last time I checked (thi ms afternoon) the apl was still losing lots of MS which was what we were supposed to do before the last build.

Has something been changed to test that? (Use all MS rather than wasting them when not at 90 focus)

[Effinhunter]

BTW, SV is getting double versatility from spitting cobra pet on Live. This is unlikely to be intentional, though it may be in game for a while.

- - - Updated - - -

With the buff of MS and the nerf of AiS, it could be better now to not lose any marking targets proc to cast Marked Shot. Last time I checked (thi ms afternoon) the apl was still losing lots of MS which was what we were supposed to do before the last build.

Has something been changed to test that? (Use all MS rather than wasting them when not at 90 focus)

The APL can be improved. The last we were playing with it this morning, we were trying to push 3 AiS into the 7s window, but that was a dps loss at the time. We may tweak it around, but MS usage should be prioritized more with the changes. We know that.

[Deleted]

Thx.
For me it makes sense that 3 AiS in the window is a dps loss as you decrease the average dmg of AiS. Idealy you would only cast 1 AiS per window, at the end of it but we would have too much focus left...

[Ravenzedd]

Thx.
For me it makes sense that 3 AiS in the window is a dps loss as you decrease the average dmg of AiS. Idealy you would only cast 1 AiS per window, at the end of it but we would have too much focus left...

This logic is meaningless. I mean, you could apply the same thing to MM 7.1 and say - Never Aimed shot outside of trueshot because it decreases the average damage of AiS. That doesn't mean anything, that's not how specs work, and you certainly can't infer optimal rotations/vuln cycles with it.

[Deleted]

This logic is meaningless. I mean, you could apply the same thing to MM 7.1 and say - Never Aimed shot outside of trueshot because it decreases the average damage of AiS. That doesn't mean anything, that's not how specs work, and you certainly can't infer optimal rotations/vuln cycles with it.

You just didn't read everything. I mentioned being focus overcapped which is what would happen obviously if you cast AiS only under Trueshot.
And that's the reason why we try not to cast any AiS when not buffed by vulnerable. However you do it if you re going to focus cap and you have no other options...

[swiftdeus]

Effinhunter,
Wanna hit up the sims for BM Legendaries for ST?

[Effinhunter]

Effinhunter,
Wanna hit up the sims for BM Legendaries for ST?

Those should already be on front page.


Here are the resims of everything in the current live 7.1.5 that we have in Simcraft. Vulner at 7s is included. As I mentioned, I think we can probably push more out of the MM profiles with more MarkS usage though.


885 gear profiles

BM Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


MM Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


MM Three Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


SV Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


Currently still running BM and SV 3 target sims for no tier.

[Finbezz]

With the current rotation where we sit on Marked Shot until we get 120-125 focus, we're wasting a ton of marking targets procs. It's not reasonable to expect to react to marking targets procs to avoid wasting marked Shot(just not enough time really). I posit that we should just use Marked Shot as soon as possible and then, based on lnl procs, current focus and focus regen, used whatever Aimed Shots we can as late in vuln as possible while filling space with arcane shot. Vulnerable uptime is too high to worry about optimizing it like via the 3-aimed shot method; it's better to just make sure we don't waste Marked Shots(and with proper timing this actually results in higher overall vuln dmg %)

TL: DR the rotation where we attempt 3 aimed shots in 1 vuln period is wasteful and bad and whatever haste breakpoint we have is so low as to be irrelevant.

Edit: A haste breakpoint to be able to fit 2 arcane/multi and 2 aimed into 1 vuln window is likely relevant.

[keygy]

is not wasteful, is the rotation we have atm, spaming MS result in a dps loss for how works the new PS talent, and MS is not affected for vulnerable anymore we gonna use MS to enable vulnerable, that is

[swiftdeus]

Those should already be on front page.

Hey Effinhunter,
Yeah I saw them, I would have just assumed there would me more then Apex/Mantle/Roar which is all it shows on the front page. I would have thought the boots would be a solid choice considering they didn't get nerfed.

[Deleted]

is not wasteful, is the rotation we have atm, spaming MS result in a dps loss for how works the new PS talent, and MS is not affected for vulnerable anymore we gonna use MS to enable vulnerable, that is

It's extremely wasteful

you gain nothing from 3-AiS in one Vuln window unless you can afford it focus wise, but you can't.
Your first AiS doesn't even significantly more damage than MS but costs 2/5 more focus.

You are better off going for 2 AiS each and weave in a AS first.

[HonneurVilified]

No barrage or sidewinders in the 3T MM sims? Is that because profiles using those talents simply don't make the top 20 profiles (or however many it is you're displaying) or what?

If so, the builds your sims suggest are going to make for some interesting Helya pulls. Guess common sense still applies; there aren't many 3T+ fights where things actually live long enough to benefit fully from something like Sentinel.

[Finbezz]

No barrage or sidewinders in the 3T MM sims? Is that because profiles using those talents simply don't make the top 20 profiles (or however many it is you're displaying) or what?

If so, the builds your sims suggest are going to make for some interesting Helya pulls. Guess common sense still applies; there aren't many 3T+ fights where things actually live long enough to benefit fully from something like Sentinel.

Add damage on helya this late into the raid is largely irrelevant and it's not worth murdering your single target on helya by playing sidewinders/barrage.

[Jayeazy]

A haste breakpoint to be able to fit 2 arcane/multi and 2 aimed into 1 vuln window is likely relevant.

21.4 but I doubt it's relevant

[HonneurVilified]

Add damage on helya this late into the raid is largely irrelevant and it's not worth murdering your single target on helya by playing sidewinders/barrage.

We do split Mythic Helyas, so I'm not sure if slime damage would be completely irrelevant if you removed hunters from the equation (and didn't replace them with mages!), but you're right, it's a pretty nerfed fight at this point. We'll see.

[Finbezz]

After swapping around a lot of gems and enchants I was just *barely* able to fit Arcane-->Arcane-->Aimed-->Aimed inside 1 vuln window. Around 22% haste.

[Azortharion]

If only sims had anything to do with Helya progression, right?

[HonneurVilified]

If only sims had anything to do with Helya progression, right?

Sorry, I didn't mean progression, I meant split rekills. I know it can be hard to grasp that someone can have been done with this tier for 6 weeks while you're still progressing.

Anyway, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make -- even if someone were to say that Helya were, on average, a 3 target fight, they'd be stupid to just follow the 3T sims. Things don't live long enough, things are too spread out, the sims just are not applicable. Still interesting to see how the sims suggest talent rankings have changed.

[Azortharion]

Why would split rekills be different? Did you seriously make that distinction just to have a jab at me on something so pointless?

You can't even make the "average number of target" argument for any fight, because there are other factors that play a role in your talent choice that are waaaay higher in the priority list before we start to look at make-up metrics like that.