+35 sucks!

[Valium104]

This is just a way to be able to always make progress while doing content and being screwed by RNG. Jesus, you really need that bad this 0,5% and your entire goal in this game is to get it? Your goal should be killing bosses in raids, having fun with friends in m+ and getting gear etc.

[Granyala]

I play casually and I don't feel forced into grinding AP.

Yup. Not feeling pressured b/c of "might lose my raidspot" is one of the perks of going casual.

[Segus1992]

Remember when players were whining about how there was nothing to grind for? Now there is and people are still throwing a temper tantrum. Can't please anyone these days.

It's almost like WoW has more than one player. Shocking, I know.

- - - Updated - - -

I remember an expansion ago people complaining about people complaining that there was nothing to do.

Man, people will always happily complain about people complaining.

Yeah, the one group that remains constantly complaining is the group complaining about complaining. They'll also never realise because they feel so high and mighty that the opinions of those below don't matter in the slightest.

Relevant: http://explosm.net/comics/3142/

[sionus]

The +35 grind killed most of the 'fun' I used to have from this game .. A s a casual player I used to play many hours a week across multiple toons .. That's all gone now .. Simply knowing my character is inferior as well as I need to grind until my eyes bleed simply SUCKS!

I loved the fact raiding meant better gear .. I loved the fact that higher PvP rating meant better gear .. That is all the work I think should be required to max power your character .. Adding AK grind was bad for the game .. ON TOP OF THAT SHIT they add +35 more points for 14.5% more stats or damage was it?!

I bet play time has dropped for many players, and if they keep this Asian grind fest pretty sure subs gonna follow and fall ...

Man it feels like NCSoft has taken over Acti-Blizz!

You will ALWAYS be behind players who dedicate more time to playing the game. Grow up and accept that fact, don't just pout about it.

[netherflame]

That's a reductionist argument. The problem with WoD was there was nothing fun to do. The OP has that same problem today, because he doesn't enjoy grinding out AP. And that's valid.

Nobody is holding a gun to his head saying "Grind AP out or I pull the trigger" I don't grind AP in mythics, I spend about an hour a day doing BGs and Arena queues while doing my WQs and that gets me like 700k at AK 25. I'm at 44 points and see a point every 3ish days to give me another 0.5% of damage.

[Nnyco]

"as a casual" "i need to grind"

oh my... so much wrong

[Revi]

I think giving players a power progression that can be achieved in any content is a great idea. Really enjoying being able to do whatever I want and still progressing.

[Schizoide]

You need skill and personal connections to get in a successful mythic raiding guild. You need to commit to a raiding schedule of hours per week. It is richly rewarded, and rightfully so.

35+ AP is a 15% core performance boost gated entirely by time. That's a lot of juice for grinding, and it is multiplicative with the gear you get from raiding. No diminishing returns, not additive stacking. As we know from Diablo3, multiplicative bonuses are extremely powerful.

[purebalance]

The +35 grind is LONG TERM and basically their new Legion version of the old "nerf content" or the not quite so old "nerf content indirectly by giving people item upgades".

Just play the game. At AK25, AP should accumulate naturally over the next few months.

At 25 you pretty much get 1 a week still. I'm not at 25 and I get 2 a week essentially although I'm still in the earlier of the extra % points. I mean you get about 100-150k alone just winning a bg and doing a random heroic a day. Add in the like 3-4 warden manacle awarding wq every 1-2 days and then there's often a larger one like discontinued suramar key which is usually about 100-150k every few days. Then 1-2 warden towers give AP every day and sometimes the free for all ones give AP and while we're on the subject of pvp once you pass honor 50 the first time, every other level is a huge chunk of AP. OP is just being dramatic.

[MasterHamster]

It's almost like WoW has more than one player. Shocking, I know.

Yeah, the one group that remains constantly complaining is the group complaining about complaining. They'll also never realise because they feel so high and mighty that the opinions of those below don't matter in the slightest.

(Un)fortunately Blizzard has tried the no-grind-or-chores approach to endgame and most of us have painful memories of what that entailed. People complain about grinds and RNG and loot and whatnot until its gone.

It's a curse of the MMO genre and it's a constant balancing game between carrots-on-sticks and burning people out. MMOs doesn't quite have the luxury of say MOBAs, whose staying-power comes from the near infinite ways a game can play out.

I think however WoD taught Blizzard that it's better to have people complaining about feeling they "have to grind x and y and z". Because that means x y and z are rewarding enough to make people feel compelled to do it. It has a purpose.

There is no middle ground like some people keep repeating. Either content is rewarding enough to make people farm it, or people do it once and stop caring.

[Jujudrood]

A common misconception with this is the difference between 'want' and 'need'.
In current content, you do not 'need' 54 traits to complete anything, whether raid or M+; this has been proven many times over with all of the mythic kills where the members did not have fully traited weapons or those who have finished M+15 shy of the 54th trait.
However, the option to level your weapon that high is present and attainable, and the reward not unsubstantial, so the desire, the 'want', to level the weapon will exist in many people, regardless of their 'hardcore' or 'casual' status.
The AP grind is daunting if you want those 54 traits right now, today, because the only way to efficiently do this would be to clear WQs of AP gains, then farm your brains out in M+. I can see how that would turn people off (sounds dreadful to me, personally).
So, I can understand the OPs frustration and that of the others who have posted similar frustrations.
I am in the camp of "don't care" in that I play at my own pace, our guild gets kills where it can, and I don't worry about the grind because it will come eventually and I do not need the additional power gain right now (though, sure, it would be nice).

Oh, and sure people complained about WoD because of the lack of things to do, in general (fun or not).
Sure, people now complain that the grind is real and painful (again, regardless of 'fun' factor).
Sometimes these are the same people, other times they are not.
Lumping them together into one wide brushstroke of "people will never be happy" is a bit off the mark, I feel, because of the range of the pendulum swing between these expansions.
WoD, you did your daily, you raided, you... managed missions? Farmed mats in your personal instance? Stood idle waiting for queues?
Legion, they added daily emissary, dozens of WQs, nearly limitless farmable warforged/titanforged procs in M+, farmable AP, more and longer questlines (it feels like, anyway). Even farming treasures has a better reason than just gold (AP).
Basically, you went from nothing to 'could' do to increase power outside of raid to a crap ton to 'could' do, if you wanted.
I can see how each flavor (WoD and Legion) would appeal to some more than others and how people would be essentially shocked by the huge uphill climb they have if their eye is set on being the best they can be.

[epLe]

When even the top guilds dont enforce people to grind AP, bis legs or swap to fotm specs, there is no need for "casuals" to feel this "force" either.

Blizzard should really listen to the ones who want to play the game, not the raidloggers.

[Stormspark]

I seem to remember an expansion ago that people complained there was nothing to do.

Man, it's impossible to please people.

This. You aren't supposed to log in and immediately have everything like in WOD.

[purebalance]

"as a casual" "i need to grind"

oh my... so much wrong

I mean it's just as bad as casuals demanding they need gear when at 850 you already pretty much faceroll anything casuals would do.

[Supercool]

You will ALWAYS be behind players who dedicate more time to playing the game.

WoW wasn't always like y'know. Raw time invested could only get you so far once you had finished your weekly raids, capped valor, etc. The only thing you could do at that point is hop on an alt. Now Mythic+ is endlessly grindable, nothing caps.

Honestly, I'm waiting for the day when they finally do away with raid lockouts and make those grindable as well. There's no compelling reason not to in the current state of the game.

[TheVaryag]

I seem to remember an expansion ago that people complained there was nothing to do.

Man, it's impossible to please people.

You keep bringing that up I seem to notice, but that's also their fault, they said they'd concentrate on Legion and "Forgot" about Warlord's feature set. And well Legion has nothing to show for It yet, I mean this artifact weapon idea is fun, the lore we got for each thing Is interesting, but still.. there's alot to do In legion, yes. But 75 % of It Isn't fun to do In the first place.

You don't feel as much progression. More content doesn't mean good content. What I'd love to do, personally Is just do each class order hall on my chars, and that's as far as I'd go on them. Apart from my PvP centered guy, on him I -need- the Artifact Power, so do raiders they're forcing both of those kind of players to keep grinding, and that's heavily alt-unfriendly.

[purebalance]

There are more raids and more dungeons and more outside content.

I also liked the concept of AP over apexis crystals

WoD release- Nov 15th 2015 BrF released in Feb 17 bosses in raids ~2.5 months
Legion Release August 30th 2016 Nighthold released mid January 20 bosses ~4.5 months


I wouldn't call that a shining pinnacle of more raid content.

[Matthias]

People fall into one of these categories:

Casual, and understand they are casual so don't fret about being top end everything.

Hardcore, and understand the effort and time it takes to actually be the top end everything.

And of course: Casual, but think they should be even with people that put in way more time, effort, or research than them.

If you are even remotely casual, you do not need 35+. There is no content that currently requires it that isn't considered higher end. So when the OP says they need it to compete, they are creating their own personal competition in their head - and then blaming the game for not succeeding.

Just because your casual doesn't mean you don't want to be competitive. I don't raid at a high level any more but I do do Heroic and M+ with Mythic Raider friends of mine, my old raid buddies. Just for giggles I like to see if I can out DPS them, if not it's nice being able to keep up.

I had no problem with AP system, I loved the talent tree nature of it acquiring new traits as time went on. If you fell behind a bit who cares. However when I finally reached trait 35 I thought I was done until new traits were added. Only to find out that I'm supposed to continue adding points for a flat bland damage increase. I mean I'm missing a full 10% damage.

A consistent problem I think that Blizzard keeps blundering on with this expansion is ignoring the pressure DPS roles are under these days. In both raids and dungeons your expected to pump out as much damage as possible and things like AP and Legendaries are screwing them. Long gone are the days where a DPS player is valued for his ability to control their aggro or crowd control or improvise when things get messy. It's all about raw numbers now.

As a tank or healer who cares if your missing 10% healing or 10% armor, likely people aren't going to even notice. I'm personally at 35 for both my DPS and Tank Spec and it makes wonder how far along my DPS spec I would be if I just invested entirely in my DPS spec. For my alt healer I'll take my sweet time because once again...who cares if I'm missing 10% healing, there is a lot of down time where I should be DPSing anyway.

Now this is coming from a casual, the pressure my Mythic Raiding friends are under is far more vast, missing 10% damage is massive, and even missing 10% armor as a tank for progression can be crucial. The fact that their is no cap on how much AP can be acquired per week or day should really be addressed, with catch up mechanics implemented. If your dedicating time to Mythic raiding you won't have as much time to grind AP in M+ dungeons.

It's great that we have things to do outside of raids, it's been a problem in the game for a while but the need to farm so excessively hasn't really been a thing since TBC, if you played back then your about 10 years younger with more RL responsibilities, and if you didn't play back then, this new demand of you is rather excessive. Remember back in TBC and WoTLK there were only a finite number of badges you could acquire per week since Heroics and Raids had a lock out.

I'm with the OP on this one.

[ganush]

I agree with the OP. The devs have decided on a carrot on a stick model, where achieving your best gear will always feel just out of reach. My biggest issue however, is that as someone who couldn't play the first three of months of the xpac, I now feel behind and would always feel behind if I chose to stick around.

[TITAN308]

The devs have decided on a carrot on a stick model

Welcome to the inception of MMOs? Or really in game that records progress...

I mean... really?