+35 sucks!

[Tharkkun]

Lemme fix that for ya:

Lich King at Launch: 11 million subs
Lich King by the End: 12 million subs
Cataclysm: 12 million subs
Cataclysm End: 9 million
Pandaria: 10 million
Pandaria End: 7.5 million
WoD: 8 million
WoD end: less than 4 million
Legion: ?????

Something in WotLK kept and even GREW subs from start to end. Every single expansion has lost subs... and each one more drastically than the previous one.

Whatever they were doing in Vanilla, BC and Wrath... was working... And now we have legendaries dropping from doing 4 daily quests. It doesn't take much to see what is wrong with the game. The easier, more convenient, less social it has become... the lower the game has dropped. It's just ewwww to me now.

Actually they lost subs by the end of the LK but the entire LK expansion was delayed in China so when it launched in the Fall of that year subs sprung back up. Then Cata launched while China was still working on LK and we hit the highest subs record to date.

Wow was already declining but the random timing of China masked it.

[TheFirstOnes]

Lemme fix that for ya:

Lich King at Launch: 11 million subs
Lich King by the End: 12 million subs
Cataclysm: 12 million subs
Cataclysm End: 9 million
Pandaria: 10 million
Pandaria End: 7.5 million
WoD: 8 million
WoD end: less than 4 million
Legion: ?????

Something in WotLK kept and even GREW subs from start to end. Every single expansion has lost subs... and each one more drastically than the previous one.

Whatever they were doing in Vanilla, BC and Wrath... was working... And now we have legendaries dropping from doing 4 daily quests. It doesn't take much to see what is wrong with the game. The easier, more convenient, less social it has become... the lower the game has dropped. It's just ewwww to me now.

That, or it was because WOW was fresh, and people from WC3, Everquest, SW galaxies, and newbies wanted to see what was up. And now that years have passed since the LKs defeat (Note that people wanted to queit cause their main goal was the LK), people don't have that BURST of thrill anymore. WOW has rivals that mostly copy WOWs style, some even go F2P. And hell, WOW runs on an old engine.

Listen, it's not because WOW sucks, it's because it is old. It's losing its new thrill, and people are leaving because of it. I'm still playing, cause I want to defeat ALL of the major WOW guys, but you might have other reasons to play it. WOW is still going on. But, people just feel burnt out. Hell, maybe that's why legacy server's are out. It's because people are wanting to re-hype the thrill that they had lost so long ago.

When, in reality, Classic was only good because MMOs were a new idea that went viral. Now, however, we have FPS games, and Esport games, which makes WOW not seem to go up as much. People want to hide that fact by saying that "WOW is dying" in each expac. When, in reality, it'll never die. A game only truely dies when it goes F2P, or if it started off with HORRIBLE reviews. Now, we have peeps acting all lazy, not doing the content needed, as to where it just makes it seem as if they're trying to live in this classic, rose tinted, fantasy world that they'll never go out of.

Listen, you can have your legacy servers, but don't bashed retail WOW in the process, all because it gives you 1 little thing you don't like. Simple.

And that's my overall opinion on current WOW! It's still fun, but some peeps just don't like change, and I repect their opinions on quitting, as much as I do with the peeps that still want to play.

[Maudib]

1.Why trade with them, unless it's for flasks/foods/enchants/gear. 2. You can trade with people. either be in a group, or a raid to do it though.

3. We never see each-others AH during classic though. 4. Were those peeps working 24/7 for the next enchant, or working ALL mighty and hard for their first mount? Or were they just spamming shit on trade, acting like they know everything about WOW, when they likely don't?

We need answers.

1. Because they have materials you might need? Maybe a couple extra quest items they don't need? And yes flasks/pots/scrolls/enchants/gear too.
2. In LFG/LFR, You can trade gear that dropped in an instance, but nothing else as far as I know.
3. Of course... my point is, that CRZ is an illusion.. those people have no impact on your economy, you ave interaction other than to dungeon of raid... and that is not an mmo.

4. Honestly? They were all out leveling, crafting, selling, inviting others to groups, building friends list with others to go run dungeons, handing people items that they might need, out of sheer benevolence. Yeah there's a few jokers here and there. But for the most part, it's a friendly, positive, helpful environment again. People were asking how to do so and so quest

It is AWESOME!

[Direpenguin]

The +35 grind is LONG TERM and basically their new Legion version of the old "nerf content" or the not quite so old "nerf content indirectly by giving people item upgades".

Just play the game. At AK25, AP should accumulate naturally over the next few months.

And the great thing about it is it will all go out the window after this expansion, and you'll replace that maxxed out Artifact with questing greens and blues.

[TITAN308]

And the great thing about it is it will all go out the window after this expansion, and you'll replace that maxxed out Artifact with questing greens and blues.

Imagine that... the same concept as every expansion ever.

Why you guys act like artifacts and AP should end up any different than running a mythic boss 30 times for that one sweet sweet weapon is beyond me.

Resets happen every single expansion. As they should.

[TheFirstOnes]

1. Because they have materials you might need? Maybe a couple extra quest items they don't need? And yes flasks/pots/scrolls/enchants/gear too.
2. In LFG/LFR, You can trade gear that dropped in an instance, but nothing else as far as I know.
3. Of course... my point is, that CRZ is an illusion.. those people have no impact on your economy, you ave interaction other than to dungeon of raid... and that is not an mmo.

4. Honestly? They were all out leveling, crafting, selling, inviting others to groups, building friends list with others to go run dungeons, handing people items that they might need, out of sheer benevolence. Yeah there's a few jokers here and there. But for the most part, it's a friendly, positive, helpful environment again. People were asking how to do so and so quest

It is AWESOME!

1. But, me and another guy were from different servers, and we traded with no sweat. If you're not cross realmed with another guy, then you can't trade. But that's just it.

2. No. You can still trade in other instances, like normal/heroics, for example.

3. CRZ is not illusion. You can do WQs with them, you can grab a group in trade (If you feel like it), and do all that stuff. I see servers NOW that have all of these mount events, and RP stuff, that makes you go HELL YEAH every time. Nothing stopped you back then, so what's stopping you now?

4. Again. You can do ALL of that now. You can have no heirlooms, and do amazing shit like such, you can run to your dungeons, waste time doing quests, craft shit, sell shit, Do challenges, maybe have with the next person you meet, dueling their ass. What's stopping ya?

[Dukenukem]

I mean it difference between raider and non-raider
Of course raider who grind will be better geared then raider who don't play the game (only raiding)

Well
With no grinding and only loging into game to raid I was able to play 3 Expansions just fine without any more than just a few ilvls difference in very begining of content (see valor upgrades, daily quests).

Now I enjoy free time as Blizzard decided that someone who care only about mythic raiding should play in addition every day for 2 hours minimum. I dont have that much time anymore to sink 10+hours daily into WoW grind. 12 hours/week of raiding was enough to keep up with all and dont feel like hindrance to the group in past.

AP = not fun, at all. nothing you gain it from is fun to do. you get one token drop from raid boss once a week -> not enough.
Class hall missions -> you run out of resources fast, and there is no resource missions or spawn like garrison had -> useless.
Legendaries - really "fun" to grind creeps, I had none after 4 months of this expansion.
Guild is performing good without me, cancelled sub 2 months ago - it WAS fun playing WoW

[Maudib]

That, or it was because WOW was fresh, and people from WC3, Everquest, SW galaxies, and newbies wanted to see what was up. And now that years have passed since the LKs defeat (Note that people wanted to queit cause their main goal was the LK), people don't have that BURST of thrill anymore. WOW has rivals that mostly copy WOWs style, some even go F2P. And hell, WOW runs on an old engine.

12 million people didn't play WC3, Everquest, SW galaxies combined. When I started playing WoW I never even had heard of Arthas the Lich King.

The thrill is gone, because there is nothing worthwhile to earn in the game... leveling between expansions is a joke, gear is a joke, endgame is a joke, social aspects is a joke... there is nothing left in this "MMO" that is MMO worthy content.

A new engine doesn't make older WoW great... it doesn't make the newer expansions great. It is game design. It will ALWAYS be game design that counts... and Blizz has lost their passionate developers. A bunch of mathheads from Elitist Jerks is running the show now.... and it shows.

[Wavebossa]

Why does everyone keep tossing around this narrative that you need to grind AP in order to be a mythic raider?

I'm 7/7M EN, 2/3M ToV, and i'm at +37, and i usually do top 5 in dps.
This is not a humble brag or anything, this is just anecdotal evidence that its not necessary to be +54 to kill mythic bosses.

If you think about it, when world firsts happened, no one was even +35, let alone 54

[Smog]

You're grinding for that stuff? You really don't need to but okay. Continue to tell yourself you need to do things only a couple hundred people with a real shot at world first actually do. I'll continue clearing all the content on time without killing myself or ever going out of my way to grind AP.

This.

Every day I do two things:

• Daily Heroic
• Daily WQ Cache

That's it, and my weapon is 38. It takes 45 minutes to an hour a day, and in doing so, you also get enough bloods to cover your raid mats. I don't do Mythic+'s, and I don't do LFR.

If 5-7 hours a week outside of raid is too much grinding for you to stay competitive, then you aren't a serious enough player to care in the first place.

[Maudib]

1. But, me and another guy were from different servers, and we traded with no sweat. If you're not cross realmed with another guy, then you can't trade. But that's just it.

2. No. You can still trade in other instances, like normal/heroics, for example.

3. CRZ is not illusion. You can do WQs with them, you can grab a group in trade (If you feel like it), and do all that stuff. I see servers NOW that have all of these mount events, and RP stuff, that makes you go HELL YEAH every time. Nothing stopped you back then, so what's stopping you now?

4. Again. You can do ALL of that now. You can have no heirlooms, and do amazing shit like such, you can run to your dungeons, waste time doing quests, craft shit, sell shit, Do challenges, maybe have with the next person you meet, dueling their ass. What's stopping ya?

1. You are confusing linked realms with CRZ. All linked realms are, are merged realms without Blizz admitting it ad declined enough to make it required. And even then they need to use CRZ to make it seem populated.

2. If you LFG/LFR or raid with other realm peeps other than those on your linked servers... you cannot trade.

3. LOL... just no.

4. I don't know.. you tell me. Noone does it on live, everyone does it on private servers. A goldfish cannot live in a tank of piranha... an asshole can't thrive on a private server.

[Nokura]

Some of these people would never have survived MMOs like FF11 or Everquest.

Because they are shit, just wanted to point this out

[Eleccybubb]

Because they are shit, just wanted to point this out

No I just meant because they were extremely grindy compared to AP grinding.

[Krom2040]

I don't necessarily mind grinding the AP, but I really don't like the fact that I have to do for *each spec separately*. Even now, with my Artifact Knowledge maxed out, I know that it's going to take a very long time to reach parity with both my tanking and DPS specs. And what happens if (as a Warrior), Arms suddenly ends up much better than Fury? Am I just going to have to hobble along for a month until I've caught it up?

It's just a very unpleasant situation, and it seems totally unnecessary. Just apply AK equally to each artifact you own.

[Dukenukem]

This.

Every day I do two things:

• Daily Heroic
• Daily WQ Cache

That's it, and my weapon is 38. It takes 45 minutes to an hour a day, and in doing so, you also get enough bloods to cover your raid mats. I don't do Mythic+'s, and I don't do LFR.

If 5-7 hours a week outside of raid is too much grinding for you to stay competitive, then you aren't a serious enough player to care in the first place.

Key word - "Daily"
In past 4 expansions not doing your "Daily" grinding was never such massive and long term handicap to your performance and survivability. Logging to every raid was enough.

[KaPe]

Why does everyone keep tossing around this narrative that you need to grind AP in order to be a mythic raider?

I'm 7/7M EN, 2/3M ToV, and i'm at +37, and i usually do top 5 in dps.
This is not a humble brag or anything, this is just anecdotal evidence that its not necessary to be +54 to kill mythic bosses.

If you think about it, when world firsts happened, no one was even +35, let alone 54

And now imagine after a long night of wipes, you fail to kill the boss at 1%. Why? Because you did 9% less damage than you could, if only you had 18 more paragon levels. Or maybe you did kill the boss - thanks to the guy that did farm 54 and thus managed to squeeze that little extra, while the rest failed to do so.

It doesn't matter that World First guilds didn't have 54 in ToV. They will have it in Nighthold, on multiple characters - and if they will still be challenged by the bosses, just imagine how much harder it will be for people without those bonuses. Not only that, but Legion has completely different gear system, so top guilds no longer reach bosses while having ~20ilvl less than "normal" mythic players. Combine this with having less paragon traits and the content would be even harder than for top raiders.

Good thing that Maw of Souls is such an exciting place, so farming this AP doesn't get boring at all.

Key word - "Daily"
In past 4 expansions not doing your "Daily" grinding was never such massive and long term handicap to your performance and survivability. Logging to every raid was enough.

And even when there were some daily activities, you only had to do them for few weeks at most. Nothing that would require months of farming... and for a single spec, too. If you want to try something else, you're severely handicapped, even without counting gear.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Beyond 34 doesn't even work in PvP, and won't until Season 3. Also it is only 15% more damage, the 35th point is 5% and each point after that is .5%. Is something like 62 million AP to max an artifact out, which is kind of the point. Someone with 40 points is barely stronger than someone with 35 points, and gear is going to be a bigger factor in determining that difference than the 2.5% damage difference from their artifacts.

Tanks are the only one where it really is big, 10% armor base and another 1% per rank on top of the .75% stam per point (yeah, you still keep gaining stam for points after 35, even though the tooltip says otherwise).

[RobertMugabe]

I dont understand OP at all. I've never grinded for AP specifically, still I am at 35 traits now. Since 7.1.5 I can boost my chars instantly to AK20 which means that these can have at least all 3 gold traits in a couple of hours or even less.

Sometimes these kinds of rants seem more like that OP just wants to have to hate at something or someone for his entertainment

[Dukenukem]

And even when there were some daily activities, you only had to do them for few weeks at most. Nothing that would require months of farming... and for a single spec, too. If you want to try something else, you're severely handicapped, even without counting gear.

Well that is maybe the most reason I would find AP as Doom inducing grind, it just never ends.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Well that is maybe the most reason I would find AP as Doom inducing grind, it just never ends.

While on the opposite side of that, if the grind took too little time then you'd wind up with many people who are sitting around feeling as if they have nothing to do. I think the final trait strikes a fairly good balance, as long as you're only playing 1 character. I feel both sides of the problem, as I like having stuff to do on my main but I also really like playing alts. I'm hoping the cap on AK gets raised with 7.2, along with being made account-wide.