Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

[Kwaai]

Because hyperboles do not contribute to a discussion but contribute to shitposting. If you want your thread to have less shitposting - you shouldn't use hyperboles.

A lot of specs have been changed, without changing your gear/talents whatever according to these changes you'll get poor results. People are still arguing about which trinkets should be used after all. Also comparing WCL and saying "see? everything's shit now!" is at least dumb. I don't recall seeing any mythic helya raid without at least one hunter. They are great at soaking multiple tentacles and do great AoE damage. Comparing DPS on EN encounters is tricky, since gear often allows your to cheese the encounter.
After all you can reroll to a shadow priest (which is popular thing right now for some reason) and compete with 7 more shadow priests (who probably have 50+ traits already) for a raid spot and bitch about AP system being shit or something.

Until NH raid is released i wouldn't judge hunters performance

The point of the thread is to point out that there's reason to be super fucking concerned. MM's strength this entire expansion has been is spread cleave. The thing that was nerfed in 7.1.5. It's pretty laughable to bring up past performance when the issue is that changes have occurred.

Regardless, this whole "wait until NH" is just the next iteration of "wait until beta"/"wait until live"/"wait until the raids release"/"wait until mythic"/"wait until the ptr is over." At what point do we actually get to say "hey blizzard might not give a shit about feedback" without being told to wait some more?

[Scorntorrent]

I don't understand why people come here and post shit like "shame you deserve it" "easy class should be at the bottom" blah blah blah

when I see a class get completely butchered I actually feel sorry for them and hope Blizz does something, it's like you guys are forgetting you have hunters in your damn raid composition and if those hunters are nerfed to oblivion it's actually a problem for your guild in general.

People should be supportive instead of bantering over dumb shit.

When I started playing in 2008 I read up a bit on which class to roll and I remember reading some warning that people dislike hunters. Nothing has changed since then apparently. When I play on my Monk people actually speak to me in the game

[Charge me Doctor]

The point of the thread is to point out that there's reason to be super fucking concerned. MM's strength this entire expansion has been is spread cleave. The thing that was nerfed in 7.1.5. It's pretty laughable to bring up past performance when the issue is that changes have occurred.

Regardless, this whole "wait until NH" is just the next iteration of "wait until beta"/"wait until live"/"wait until the raids release"/"wait until mythic"/"wait until the ptr is over." At what point do we actually get to say "hey blizzard might not give a shit about feedback" without being told to wait some more?

I still don't get why you should be concerned. Because there are parses of hunters being on bottom on outdated and outgeared content while said hunters haven't adjusted their shit to changes? Sure, ilvl 900 shadow priests will perform better at 2 minute long fight, but how many actual raid encounters you are expecting to finish in 2 minute span?

Yesterday i've cleared HC EN and ToV and haven't seen any hunter sitting at the bottom of DPS chart. Our hunters still did comparatively well, shit or undergeared hunters were at bottom for sure, just like 860 fury warrior and 870 assassination rogue, but that's it.

Seriously, if you are that concerned, just take your 7.1.5 WCL and 7.1 of the same fight with close performance and compare what changed - was it your damage output that gimps your performance, or is it "well we just bloodlust and nuke the Cenarius before he spawns a second wave of adds" case?

I also fail to see how "spread cleave" nerf is relevant here (afaik there was nerf to Barrage single target damage, which is fine IMO, since it was really dumb to have an ability that deals ridiculous amount of AoE damage while also being huge DPS gain on a single-target. Imagine casting living bomb on a single target wouldn't be a DPS loss fore a fire mage? Yeah, ridiculous)
Hunters mark got buffed
Aimed shot damage got buffed
Marked shot got buffed
Multishot (did even anyone used it over sidewinders?) got buffed
Arcane shot got buffed

It's entirely possible that i've missed most of changes, but nerf to focus gain from sidewinders (which is fine IMO, since there was no choice at this talent row), or was it wide stat change nerf that hit hunters that hard? Or is it other classes got buffed more than hunters and somehow it is a problem?. Honestly, the only 3 hunters i know personally haven't noticed loss in their DPS, all of them do slightly more DPS than they did before, the only complaint i hear is that others perform way better now.

[Aggrophobic]

How many move well casting/attacking spells does mm have? I knew they had like 1 or 2 but every spell?

The spec is or at least was about aimed shot and pretty much just aimed shot I'd say you had to stand still for about 80%-85% of your time in combat if you wanted to pull good numbers.

So you stand still about as much as say a demo lock.

- - - Updated - - -

And further to that Survival IS a melee class... His argument is nonsense. Only BM has free movement but then you can argue it loses something over other ranged dps classes due to relying on a pet with travel time.

Yes, of course.

I gave up on my hunter anyway. Good numbers or not, the specs are not as fun as I would like.

[Kirbypro]

So.. you are trying to say that on encounter with hectic movement and low health adds, say, Arcane mage or Destruction warlock will do more DPS than a hunter?

Anything Hunters can do I can do better...says pretty much every other spec.

[Deleted]

I still don't get why you should be concerned. Because there are parses of hunters being on bottom on outdated and outgeared content while said hunters haven't adjusted their shit to changes? Sure, ilvl 900 shadow priests will perform better at 2 minute long fight, but how many actual raid encounters you are expecting to finish in 2 minute span?

Yesterday i've cleared HC EN and ToV and haven't seen any hunter sitting at the bottom of DPS chart. Our hunters still did comparatively well, shit or undergeared hunters were at bottom for sure, just like 860 fury warrior and 870 assassination rogue, but that's it.

Seriously, if you are that concerned, just take your 7.1.5 WCL and 7.1 of the same fight with close performance and compare what changed - was it your damage output that gimps your performance, or is it "well we just bloodlust and nuke the Cenarius before he spawns a second wave of adds" case?

I also fail to see how "spread cleave" nerf is relevant here (afaik there was nerf to Barrage single target damage, which is fine IMO, since it was really dumb to have an ability that deals ridiculous amount of AoE damage while also being huge DPS gain on a single-target. Imagine casting living bomb on a single target wouldn't be a DPS loss fore a fire mage? Yeah, ridiculous)
Hunters mark got buffed
Aimed shot damage got buffed
Marked shot got buffed
Multishot (did even anyone used it over sidewinders?) got buffed
Arcane shot got buffed

It's entirely possible that i've missed most of changes, but nerf to focus gain from sidewinders (which is fine IMO, since there was no choice at this talent row), or was it wide stat change nerf that hit hunters that hard? Or is it other classes got buffed more than hunters and somehow it is a problem?. Honestly, the only 3 hunters i know personally haven't noticed loss in their DPS, all of them do slightly more DPS than they did before, the only complaint i hear is that others perform way better now.

Well, you have to consider that people only talk and look at the max possible DPS and it seems Hunters are, on average, dead last there.
And it's not really important whether we've been buffed or not when you look at that, because we have to compare ourselves to other classes.

I've yet to raid in 7.1.5 and I disagree with some views already, but also agree with some.

#1
I don't think we have any *less* movement in 7.1.5 than in 7.1, in fact, I believe we have more, but our *max*-possible DPS is affected more than defore due to timings.

#2
our spread cleave got weaker and imho, it's now a *bigger* DPS loss to take it over Trick Shot and other ST/Stacked AoE talents . So it's basically both a AoE and ST nerf.

#3
It's not really that people complain that *they* have been nerfed, but that the gap between them and the other classes didn't close at all.
That is a problem, not just "somehow", because it affects several parts of the game.

When I go from deadlast to deadlast+100k, while everyone else also got +100k, it doesn't matter at all.

[Windthorn]

Forgive the actual numbers as these can be tuned or hot fixed. It's this AS spam playstyle that's the real concern. Was doing mythic EN last night and after a couple bosses I went BM simply due to boredom of the style of play for MM. it's a complete bore fest now. Don't get why blizzard couldn't have just tweaked the numbers if they didn't want side winders spec to not be OP. Or even still leave that alone and give us better ST options.

[Deleted]

Forgive the actual numbers as these can be tuned or hot fixed. It's this AS spam playstyle that's the real concern. Was doing mythic EN last night and after a couple bosses I went BM simply due to boredom of the style of play for MM. it's a complete bore fest now. Don't get why blizzard couldn't have just tweaked the numbers if they didn't want side winders spec to not be OP. Or even still leave that alone and give us better ST options.

This is something I can personally not understand, how was MM fine with SW, but not now (in terms of playstyle).
I'd say that playing with SW was much more boring than it is now, because all I had to do was fitting in ~2 AiS, that's it. I could do them whenever I liked, I didn't have to plan my next Vulnerable phase, nothing.

to a certain point and 90%++ of the time:
Proc? Use SW
No Porc? Hold it in.
Did anyone truely, for example, "manage" focus with SW?
How do you manage it with a 55 focus generator. That's "Focusing Shot"-amount of managing at best. Empty? Use it and you are good to go for another 6s+

[Tharkkun]

I still don't get why you should be concerned. Because there are parses of hunters being on bottom on outdated and outgeared content while said hunters haven't adjusted their shit to changes? Sure, ilvl 900 shadow priests will perform better at 2 minute long fight, but how many actual raid encounters you are expecting to finish in 2 minute span?

Yesterday i've cleared HC EN and ToV and haven't seen any hunter sitting at the bottom of DPS chart. Our hunters still did comparatively well, shit or undergeared hunters were at bottom for sure, just like 860 fury warrior and 870 assassination rogue, but that's it.

Seriously, if you are that concerned, just take your 7.1.5 WCL and 7.1 of the same fight with close performance and compare what changed - was it your damage output that gimps your performance, or is it "well we just bloodlust and nuke the Cenarius before he spawns a second wave of adds" case?

I also fail to see how "spread cleave" nerf is relevant here (afaik there was nerf to Barrage single target damage, which is fine IMO, since it was really dumb to have an ability that deals ridiculous amount of AoE damage while also being huge DPS gain on a single-target. Imagine casting living bomb on a single target wouldn't be a DPS loss fore a fire mage? Yeah, ridiculous)
Hunters mark got buffed
Aimed shot damage got buffed
Marked shot got buffed
Multishot (did even anyone used it over sidewinders?) got buffed
Arcane shot got buffed

It's entirely possible that i've missed most of changes, but nerf to focus gain from sidewinders (which is fine IMO, since there was no choice at this talent row), or was it wide stat change nerf that hit hunters that hard? Or is it other classes got buffed more than hunters and somehow it is a problem?. Honestly, the only 3 hunters i know personally haven't noticed loss in their DPS, all of them do slightly more DPS than they did before, the only complaint i hear is that others perform way better now.

Because equally skilled players in Mythic difficulty at the same ilevel should be *dead* fucking even. It's called balance. There shouldn't be a 200k discrepancy between specs ever. Not in any game. That's the ISSUE right now. It's not a L2P issue. These are players that can pickup and master a rotation in an hour. We don't need weeks to see if they adjust. Plus if the best of the best are so far at the bottom what do you think an average player will be doing? Less than a tank again.

[Charge me Doctor]

#2
our spread cleave got weaker and imho, it's now a *bigger* DPS loss to take it over Trick Shot and other ST/Stacked AoE talents . So it's basically both a AoE and ST nerf.

Can you elaborate how spread cleave got weaker? Because i don't recall seeing any nerfs to that. In fact, marked shot got almost x2 damage buff (as a compensation since it doesn't use vulnerable stacks anymore) and this is the one thing that basically cleaves

[mete23]

Good day,

What i see is that people still using old build and pulling better numbers than the new one.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...nts&dataset=99


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ntinfo=Talents

[Kwaai]

Marked shot got buffed

I suppose it's possible that Hunters will scale into Nighthold better than anyone else, but if the week before a new raid opens isn't the time to say "hey we're way lower than everyone else," when is the time? Specs don't exist in a vacuum, so even though MM's numbers might be up from last week, if everyone else's numbers are up more, we're worse off. That's not being salty that other's are doing better, that's pointing out that balance is relative to other specs. It's foolish to think otherwise.

It's also foolish to make a post on the hunter forums when you clearly have no understanding of how Marksmanship works or why it's been strong so far. If you're wondering why I'm pointing out this line of your post, it's because this is what proves you have almost no understanding of the spec or what 7.1.5 did. I wouldn't presume to troll whatever class forums you're from, and I think everyone would appreciate it if you didn't bring this kind of ignorance here.

The sky isn't falling, everything will turn out fine for 99% of players (myself included), but now is obviously one of the best times to bring up concerns about tuning.

Can you elaborate how spread cleave got weaker? Because i don't recall seeing any nerfs to that. In fact, marked shot got almost x2 damage buff and this is the one thing that basically cleaves

Because it appears you're not trolling and legitimately don't understand, here are the relevant changes:

* Marked Shot buffed to 450% from 250%
* Marked Shot no longer benefits from Vulnerable

In 7.0/7.1, Marked Shot benefitted from a 150% damage increase due to Vulnerable. Sidewinders would hit every target in the room, and Marked Shot would hit all of those targets for 625% damage. Now that Marked Shot doesn't benefit from Vulnerable, it's doing 72% of the damage it was. So now we have dramatically weakened cleave.

[Charge me Doctor]

Because equally skilled players in Mythic difficulty at the same ilevel should be *dead* fucking even. It's called balance. There shouldn't be a 200k discrepancy between specs ever. Not in any game. That's the ISSUE right now. It's not a L2P issue. These are players that can pickup and master a rotation in an hour. We don't need weeks to see if they adjust. Plus if the best of the best are so far at the bottom what do you think an average player will be doing? Less than a tank again.

It's not an issue since you can't really stack one-spec-DPS without gimping your raid in Mythic. Sure, people butthurt of SPs DPS, but you don't see 7 of them stacked in every mythic raid.

Problem with thinking the way you put it "aka "equally skilled players in Mythic at the same ilevel" brings back "bring the class" system, when you bring the best possible specs. But truth is - not everyone raiding Mythics (even in top guilds) are at same ilevel or equally skilled, so, yeah, when you look at world first kill videos you often see 4-5 players skyrocketing in DPS, while 9-10 other players are 100k behind.

Sure it may hurt someones feelings and make then "that's it! i'm rolling a shadow priest", then 4 weeks later realize that it isn't that easy to pull these numbers or they failr to compete with others they quit.

[Spodumene]

Hey look it only took 4 posts to get you to make one semi productive post... But most of the feedback is like everything you have posted, complete fluff. M
We need more dps, our rotation is crappy, clunky, etc. We have to rely on procs(guess what most classes have procs), why do we have ramp up (both druids ramp up, locks ramp up many classes do it is part of some class mechanics)... You are a ranged physical dps in 2 specs, many physical dps have downtime in rotations, it is OK if you have a free gcd here or there. If you want no open gods play a caster.

You seem like an angry unproductive person

[cmlights]

lol yes because a ranged class that can attack well moving like melee should be top dps

are you stupid? mm is not mobile. aimed shot is a channeling ability

[Charge me Doctor]

I suppose it's possible that Hunters will scale into Nighthold better than anyone else, but if the week before a new raid opens isn't the time to say "hey we're way lower than everyone else," when is the time? Specs don't exist in a vacuum, so even though MM's numbers might be up from last week, if everyone else's numbers are up more, we're worse off. That's not being salty that other's are doing better, that's pointing out that balance is relative to other specs. It's foolish to think otherwise.

Exactly, specs don't exist in a vacuum, you should compare specs on encounter basis, not overall performance as people here usually do. Since NH encounter are quite... unique compared to what we had before it's extremely hard to assume anything now.

It's also foolish to make a post on the hunter forums when you clearly have no understanding of how Marksmanship works or why it's been strong so far. If you're wondering why I'm pointing out this line of your post, it's because this is what proves you have almost no understanding of the spec or what 7.1.5 did. I wouldn't presume to troll whatever class forums you're from, and I think everyone would appreciate it if you didn't bring this kind of ignorance here.

It's forum, and it's a discussion, you are free to tell me why i'm wrong instead of, basically, "lol noob gtfo and l2p". If you can't explain how exactly hunters "cleave" got nerfed, while all we see in patch notes are either buffs or fixes (seriously, barrage dealing double damage to a main target was really really dumb idea so i won't call it a nerf even if its technically a nerf), and we still see hunters pull competitive numbers in (currently outdated) content.

[Spodumene]

The point of the thread is to point out that there's reason to be super fucking concerned. MM's strength this entire expansion has been is spread cleave. The thing that was nerfed in 7.1.5. It's pretty laughable to bring up past performance when the issue is that changes have occurred.

Regardless, this whole "wait until NH" is just the next iteration of "wait until beta"/"wait until live"/"wait until the raids release"/"wait until mythic"/"wait until the ptr is over." At what point do we actually get to say "hey blizzard might not give a shit about feedback" without being told to wait some more?

And i don't see any point in waiting for next content when the new rotation is a steaming pile of shit and i'd rather reroll characters or quit the game altogether than suffer through it.

[Kwaai]

It's forum, and it's a discussion, you are free to tell me why i'm wrong instead of, basically, "lol noob gtfo and l2p"

Because it appears you're not trolling and legitimately don't understand, here are the relevant changes:

* Marked Shot buffed to 450% from 250%
* Marked Shot no longer benefits from Vulnerable

In 7.0/7.1, Marked Shot benefitted from a 150% damage increase due to Vulnerable. Sidewinders would hit every target in the room, and Marked Shot would hit all of those targets for 625% damage. Now that Marked Shot doesn't benefit from Vulnerable, it's doing 72% of the damage it was. So now we have dramatically weakened cleave.

In case you missed the edit which I put in a bit late.

[Charge me Doctor]

In case you missed the edit which I put in a bit late.

Well that actually explains why i was able to finally outdamage our MM hunters on 2phase on Helya, but still, doesn't Vulnerable debuff have to be stacked? It looks like an issue with Sidewinders and not with Marked shot to me, and buffs to single target damage should be enough to compensate for this loss of burst AoE.

I still don't see this as a problem since hunters are not one-trick-pony as enhancement shamans used to be with their ring of fire ability. 28% nerf to damage on one ability is a lot, but it's not like all your DPS got reduced by 28%.

Look at these two logs of a same hunter at 7.1 and 7.1.5 on helya mythic
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=11
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&source=111

It's quite hard to compare his marked shot overall damage because... well, 57 casts vs 44, but difference is not that dire, since with 10 less casts he did only 20% less damage after 28% nerf on damage of this ability.
Look at aimed shot on the other hand - in same amount of casts he did almost twice the damage

[Trimshadow]

Well that actually explains why i was able to finally outdamage our MM hunters on 2phase on Helya, but still, doesn't Vulnerable debuff have to be stacked? It looks like an issue with Sidewinders and not with Marked shot to me, and buffs to single target damage should be enough to compensate for this loss of burst AoE.

I still don't see this as a problem since hunters are not one-trick-pony as enhancement shamans used to be with their ring of fire ability. 28% nerf to damage on one ability is a lot, but it's not like all your DPS got reduced by 28%.

Look at these two logs of a same hunter at 7.1 and 7.1.5 on helya mythic
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=11
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&source=111

It's quite hard to compare his marked shot overall damage because... well, 57 casts vs 44, but difference is not that dire, since with 10 less casts he did only 20% less damage after 28% nerf on damage of this ability.
Look at aimed shot on the other hand - in same amount of casts he did almost twice the damage

And yet over all he did around 80k LESS damage on the 11th compared to the december parse... great blizz balancing there!