Soaring childlessness among southern European women

[Mormolyce]

Fun fact: America's birth rate would be below replacement too if it weren't for immigrants and children of immigrants. And their birth rates are declining.

Here is my crazy (but fun) theory: Nature is subtlety changing humans to want to reproduce less.

The Happening meets Children of Men.

Nah. It's just poverty versus wealth.



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I'd rather let the entire social system collapse and be rebuilt to accommodate a smaller population than rely on immigrants.

You mean rather than endure the way it's been for about 50 years or so?

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Ponzi scheme - Heard of it?

So you think countries who prop up their fertility rate are indulging in a Ponzi scheme?

Guess what? That's basically every country outside of Africa and parts of the Middle East. 97% of the world's population growth comes from the third world.

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I already seen an infraction on the very first page. I am amazed, amazed that people still fall for Tennisball's flamebaits. This thread is one of THE MOST OBVIOUS baits I have seen from Tennis.

Plus if this is actually a cyclical re-hash of an older flamebait of his.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rop-11-by-2050

He started that thread with -



Every single point of the argument being had here has been thoroughly covered there. HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR DISCUSSION NOR IS HE TRYING TO MAKE A POINT! HE IS FISHING FOR INFRACTIONS! Please stop feeding him.

Sounds like Darwinism in action.

I like how you're portraying anyone posting something liberal as flamebait. It certainly seems to trigger a lot of people on this forum *cough*.

[Deleted]

No, the answer is not to fill the gap with immigrants and immigrant children.

They hardly ever contributie. If anything, they cost society even more money.

[Taeldorian]

local news here just ran a story on how it costs about $200,000 (total) to raise a single child.
i suppose europe may be in a similar situation.

That sounds like really skewed numbers.

What's factored into that? College? Amount of money spend on food, baby products, etc etc. Hell, college itself is almost $200,000 so it's definitely way more than that. It depends what they're factoring in and where you live though.

[Dzartovian]

For a point of discussion, how would you improve the birthrate situation in western secular societies?
Do you support child birth with tax incentives or social security?
Do you create more incentives for people forming family-centric households?
Do we go back to a more balanced secular/religious society?

I think its just a by product of the western lifestyle; self indulgence and the illusion of choice/freedom.
Alot of the MGTOW advocates argue that its due to the gynocentric secular western societies are ultimately just overrun by patriarchal religious societies.
Sure the economy plays a part, but i think its more the social fabric of western societies.

Im writing a book about my idea of the illusion of choice/freedom, most likely looking to discuss this as a topic in it as well.
What do you guys think?

[Deleted]

So you think countries who prop up their fertility rate are indulging in a Ponzi scheme?

No i think people who argue we need immigration to cover the social systems are trying to prop up the ponzi scheme.

Guess what? That's basically every country outside of Africa and parts of the Middle East. 97% of the world's population growth comes from the third world.

and the world would be way better off if those people weren't born, because its fucking unsustainable.

[Tomyris]

Fun fact: America's birth rate would be below replacement too if it weren't for immigrants and children of immigrants. And their birth rates are declining.



Nah. It's just poverty versus wealth.



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Yey, France.

[Mihalik]

Sounds like Darwinism in action.

I like how you're portraying anyone posting something liberal as flamebait. It certainly seems to trigger a lot of people on this forum *cough*.

Are you seriously denying that Tennis is a shitposter? Where did I say anything about "anyone liberal". Here you just jumped to the conclusion that I must be conservative or something and that I don't want reasoned arguments.

The issue is that he is a relatively good one. I actually had a conversation about this with a mod, and the mods do consider him one. Its how he frames the discussion, putting an intentional twist on it, that he knows will trigger people. It's the same when he posts about gender relations (where he acts like a conservative), about weight and health (where he acts like a fitness douche) and immigration.

If he seriously wanted to discuss the demographic problem of Southern European nations he could have stuck to the highlighted issues in the article, namely the need for labor reform and other policies to encourage people having children, and if that falls short how immigration is part of the solution, instead he ignored everything in the article and went for the immigration one liner, because he KNOWS how contentious the issue is, and framed it in a way to trigger conservatives and everyone who might have any issue with immigration.

A bunch of his other comments follow the same line. He makes no reasoned arguments, but either calls into question what others say by demanding sources (then ignores it in the next post) or just throws out other empty one liners, that he knows people react badly too.

Even his faux Canadian pride is essentially just a tool to allow him to nation bash without directly nation bashing. He is good at what he's doing, I'll give him that, what I don't get is how people continue falling for it.

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because its fucking unsustainable.

Funny thing.

80% of the world's resources are used up by 20% of the world's population. You are worrying about something that is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

100 million Africans collectively use up fewer resources than an average mid sized American/European city.

We Westerners are the ones that are living unsustainably.

What ends and reduces explosive population growth is economic and political stability. Not even wealth. Just stability. It takes very little to do that. Take the issue of hunger off the table, provide basic hygiene and medical care, vaccination, peace and rule of law, and you are set.

[The Glitch]

The jetsons lied to me!

Ahh the Jetsons, I loved that cartoon, Just don't get shows like that now. /takes off rose tinted goggles hehe.


What about all us women that just don't want kids, for the sole reason we just don't want them?

[Mihalik]

What about all us women that just don't want kids, for the sole reason we just don't want them?

I once asked him a similar question from a male perspective. His reply was as follows:

You don't have any inclinations? That is clearly abnormal. Humans are programmed to want to reproduce and seek love.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-rise-in-China

With other words...You are clearly "abnormal" love!

[Mehrunes]

Are you seriously denying that Tennis is a shitposter? Where did I say anything about "anyone liberal". Here you just jumped to the conclusion that I must be conservative or something and that I don't want reasoned arguments.

Found the error in your reasoning. He does it all the time and every time anything remotely liberal or left wing is being criticized because, ironically, he's the one triggered in such situations. He rushes to the defense of the poster being contested like a knight on a shining armor and uses the broadest brush possible to paint the "assailant" with. Without bothering with such worthless earthly vices like reading comprehension, context or basic reasoning. No matter what the criticized left wing thing is. Could be Sarkeesian level crazy, he will still defend it with illogical nonsense (and then gets triggered even more when he's called an SJW).

Just one recent example: taking a post criticizing Trump's nepotism out of context, thinking it's defending Trump because of the lack of context and then mocking the poster for being fine with nepotism. Then, because in his head the poster was already branded as a Trump voter, replying to another post by them (that complained about the state of America and being sick of constant threads about Trump's mishaps) with "hur hur hur, should have voted for Hilllary then". Even though the second post contained outright criticism of Trump, calling him a moron included, and didn't even need external context to get it.

[dakalro]

local news here just ran a story on how it costs about $200,000 (total) to raise a single child.
i suppose europe may be in a similar situation.

So far (until nanny/kindergarten/school) I am spending less with a child that I used to spend before the child. Not by much but I am saving more (excluding a pretty hefty college fund that I consider with the expenses). There's also the option to send the child to public kindergarten/school (free/cheap-ish) and if so it's still going to be about the same expenses as before having children.

[ItachiZaku]

My anecdotal 2 cents: I know a few dozen romanian chicks (co-workers) and none of them have kids. Zero. They are all in their 20s and those that I get along with quite well, basically don't want kids. They feel they will hinder their lifestyle. They like going on vacations and having the freedom to do whatever they want. They have graduated university, have good jobs and are liking their money and freedom.

[Itisamuh]

Well I may not live in that region, but I sure wish I could meet some of these women who would rather not have kids.

[dakalro]

I think it's primarily economic, but the cultural breakdown of the nuclear family isn't helping

If states want to increase birth rates they should also think about expanding daycare into evening/night care facilities or on-demand nanny services. People have different needs/wants nowadays.
The nuclear family doesn't work that great for getting births when both wife and husband have the same wants/needs/expectations. A wife or husband will not be as OK with giving up their "life" for a child when the other option isn't just cook/clean/laundry/dishes.
People are just less willing to give up their usual lifestyle and until this is handled you're not getting any higher birthrates.

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Well I may not live in that region, but I sure wish I could meet some of these women who would rather not have kids.

My wife was like that until we met and decided to get married. The child only came up because we talked a few times if we ever want one; both of us said that, eventually, yes. Neither of us wanted a child from some biological/sociological urge; our own families weren't the best examples of parenting.

Since she's nearing 40 it was a choice between waiting and possibly never having a child or just risking the sudden change in lifestyle (we knew it would be hard going from party all week to change diapers all week).

[Deleted]

Consider this
1. People in a country Y have low birth rates
2. Immigrants in country X have high birth rates
3. Bring immigrants from X to Y
4. People assimilate(well should)
5. People in Y keep having low birth rates

Assuming that there's some conditions that cause people to have low birth rates all that immigration does is bring new people in. Assuming they assimilate with the native population properly so you don't end up with segregated communities the same conditions that caused low birth rates for the native population will be there for these new people as well. All immigration becomes is a temporary solution that a lot of people don't like to a problem that will keep being a problem. Best case scenario the issue comes back in 1 generation, worst case scenario you end up with a group of unqualified people who will have children and will live in areas that are more or less immigrant only leading to even more issues.

The solution shouldn't be "MORE PEOPLEEEEEEEEEEE" it should be "MORE PRODUCTIVE PEOPLE".

[Faenskap]

Ahh the Jetsons, I loved that cartoon, Just don't get shows like that now. /takes off rose tinted goggles hehe.


What about all us women that just don't want kids, for the sole reason we just don't want them?

Being a woman in Norway saying you don't want children and potentially that you don't like them, is like wearing a Nazi uniform in public. It's frowned upon. You might even get interviewed about your views. If you're more famous, expect questions about a probable future family to be brought up. If you're a voluntairly childless woman, you might be considered selfish and cold. I wish I was joking, but I'm not. Disgusting attitude, really.

[dakalro]

I read a book that touched on this topic briefly. I may not remember every detail clearly but it made sense to me and seems reasonably correct.

• People are finding ways to become satisfied and fulfilled in their lives without reproducing.
• Sex is not the only engaging, fun thing to do. Plenty of people find other avenues of entertainment more enjoyable than sex.
• It is economically challenging to afford a child, and potential parents realize they will have to give up a lot to support them.
• Children have a bad connotation in our society - they're dirty, messy, smelly, bad, gross, etc
• Adults see very little immediate value from raising a child.
• The idea of the nuclear family or stay at home parent is falling apart
• Children actively impede things you may want to do, from something as simple as shopping or entertaining to big life goals like traveling or moving to a foreign country

Edit remembered two more points:

• Contraception allows for both married and casual sex to greatly reduce the odds of reproduction
• Marriage rates are declining while divorce rates are rising.

The economical part is probably not even a major issue in most of Europe. Here we get 2 years leave with 85% pay (85% of the average from the last 12 months when you worked) and you can't be fired. It's even accepted that you won't be fired even after you return. The 2 years can be split however you want between mother and father. So it really is a non-issue but birth rates are still very low.

The rest is sticky material.

[tikcol]

Here is my crazy (but fun) theory: Nature is subtlety changing humans to want to reproduce less.

The Happening meets Children of Men.

But why is it happening?

[The Glitch]

I once asked him a similar question from a male perspective. His reply was as follows:


http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-rise-in-China

With other words...You are clearly "abnormal" love!

Well then, 3 cheers to being abnormal lol. Hip Hip, Hooray! Hip Hip, Hooray! Hip Hip, Hooray! /rolls eyes.

[dakalro]

interestingly, the ultra wealthy seem to skew towards having many children.

Are children becoming a luxury?

It's because it's simpler/easier on the finances and more socially acceptable to have someone else care for the children while not giving up your entire spare time/life for the first few years.