Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

[Kirbypro]

Well that actually explains why i was able to finally outdamage our MM hunters on 2phase on Helya, but still, doesn't Vulnerable debuff have to be stacked? It looks like an issue with Sidewinders and not with Marked shot to me, and buffs to single target damage should be enough to compensate for this loss of burst AoE.

Nice, you were jealous of the one single strength of MM hunter and are now trolling us. Ignoring you from now on.

[Makro]

This is not something that a person or group of people working in blizzard can and should solve. It's community issue. Obviously that blizzard themselves have much more stats than players have, but community response is very important. Look at recent example of fire mage - they've got gutted in first patches of PTR, crit dropped by ~20%, huge reduction of burst damage and blizzard buffed abilities which you can't use because of lack of resource (critical hits). You ended up spending almost half of your time casting fireball.
There was an outrage from community with 3 or 4 really detailed explanations on battle.net/altered-time/mmo-champions. It's really important to get attention to your topic and provide feedback (not these "omg blizz r returds fix my class") on how this change will hurt your class.

You can find here 77 pages of complaints about MM on the PTR and, more importantly, suggestions on how to fix the problem.
Adreaver did a great job keeping the discussion going. He also summarized everything very well on the first page if you want to check.

[Charge me Doctor]

Lol there were dozens of pages and thousands of comments on the dedicated spec threads and dozens of other threads made on the official 7.1.5 PTR forum...

Blizzard responded to the marksman one like twice to mention a couple hotfixes... They responded to the BM thread one single time to elaborate on a change to a legendary item... I don't think they ever replied to the survival thread, not that it got much buzz since no one plays the spec.

Literally thousands of posts worth of feedback and it was all ignored completely... Hell they didn't even change the useless (as in it was designed for an old version of the spec that didn't even exist anymore and served no purpose in the current spec) BM set until like a few days before the patch went live lol...

The feedback was there... Blizzard ignored it.

I've been to official 7.1.5 thread, there was a lot of shitposting, but blizzard did responded to valid points and i was quite satisfied with answers.

- - - Updated - - -

You can find here 77 pages of complaints about MM on the PTR and, more importantly, suggestions on how to fix the problem.
Adreaver did a great job keeping the discussion going. He also summarized everything very well on the first page if you want to check.

Yeah, i've been following it since i was very concern of fire getting rekt on PTR, and since i had a level 110 priest and hunter i recided to have hunter as my backup character.

[Cerrion176]

This is not something that a person or group of people working in blizzard can and should solve. It's community issue. Obviously that blizzard themselves have much more stats than players have, but community response is very important. Look at recent example of fire mage - they've got gutted in first patches of PTR, crit dropped by ~20%, huge reduction of burst damage and blizzard buffed abilities which you can't use because of lack of resource (critical hits). You ended up spending almost half of your time casting fireball.
There was an outrage from community with 3 or 4 really detailed explanations on battle.net/altered-time/mmo-champions. It's really important to get attention to your topic and provide feedback (not these "omg blizz r returds fix my class") on how this change will hurt your class.

This is exactly what a person/group at Blizzard should be solving, it is their job and they are paid to do that. However, I do agree that community involvement is vital and your example with mages is spot on. The issue is that the hunter forums throughout the WoW community had just as many well thought out and detailed posts giving solutions to the problems both with the PTR and hunters in general. These were blatantly ignored by whoever is balancing hunters across all three specs with suggestions of everything from focus management (a major issue for all specs currently), talent changes for viability beyond SW/PS, and mobility completely ignored for a rotation that forces you to spam an ability 5-6 times doing around 60k damage just to get focus to do anything else.

It seems some of the developers seem to listen very well to their communities with obvious winners in demon hunters/mages/ele shamans/shadow priests/bal druids. Whoever is balancing hunters is not one of those developers and very obviously doesn't play a hunter at all. The issue going forward is when buffs do come as I think they will, will they come soon enough to at least give one spec of hunters the ability to compete in NH? Additionally, if the ignorance continues I have a feeling the "fixes" implemented will not fix the root of the problem as whoever does the changes doesn't even understand the class and won't take advice from the community.

[Makro]

I've been to official 7.1.5 thread, there was a lot of shitposting, but blizzard did responded to valid points and i was quite satisfied with answers.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, i've been following it since i was very concern of fire getting rekt on PTR, and since i had a level 110 priest and hunter i recided to have hunter as my backup character.

I'm sorry, but you were "quite satisfied" with the answers because you had no idea how MM worked, as you clearly showed by asking about vulnerable stacking. This is not a personal attack, you are absolutely free to know nothing about the hunter class, just like I know nothing about yours.

They did address some of the complaints when the patch went live (increasing the focus pool to avoid capping with SW, increasing MS damage/focus ratio, ...), but at the same time reintroduced the 3xAiS problem by reverting back to 7 seconds vulnerable. Overall they released a spec that is very different to what everybody could test on the PTR, so you can understand why everyone is so pissed (without even talking about performance).

[FelPlague]

The spec is or at least was about aimed shot and pretty much just aimed shot I'd say you had to stand still for about 80%-85% of your time in combat if you wanted to pull good numbers.

So you stand still about as much as say a demo lock.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, of course.

I gave up on my hunter anyway. Good numbers or not, the specs are not as fun as I would like.

Idk demo lock I would say is 95-98% because the only time you can move without completely fuckig ng your roation is life tap. And a oddf talent or two

[Aggrophobic]

Idk demo lock I would say is 95-98% because the only time you can move without completely fuckig ng your roation is life tap. And a oddf talent or two

Yes, and then you can switch to affli and movement is not an issue.
With hunter it doesn't matter what you do. The specs are all pretty useless without the right legendaries and even then, they are subpar.

[Deleted]

This is exactly what a person/group at Blizzard should be solving, it is their job and they are paid to do that. However, I do agree that community involvement is vital and your example with mages is spot on. The issue is that the hunter forums throughout the WoW community had just as many well thought out and detailed posts giving solutions to the problems both with the PTR and hunters in general. These were blatantly ignored by whoever is balancing hunters across all three specs with suggestions of everything from focus management (a major issue for all specs currently), talent changes for viability beyond SW/PS, and mobility completely ignored for a rotation that forces you to spam an ability 5-6 times doing around 60k damage just to get focus to do anything else.

It seems some of the developers seem to listen very well to their communities with obvious winners in demon hunters/mages/ele shamans/shadow priests/bal druids. Whoever is balancing hunters is not one of those developers and very obviously doesn't play a hunter at all. The issue going forward is when buffs do come as I think they will, will they come soon enough to at least give one spec of hunters the ability to compete in NH? Additionally, if the ignorance continues I have a feeling the "fixes" implemented will not fix the root of the problem as whoever does the changes doesn't even understand the class and won't take advice from the community.

100% agreed. It's a shame how much time the hunter community spend on gving detailed opinions (and some solutions) onto 7.1.5.

You can easiyl see that something must be wrng if most people comlpained about sidewinders all day long but would rather play the old-sidewinders specc if they had to choose between the current MM design and the old SW-PS build. I also have the feeling that whoever designs our class hasn't even played a hunter in legion. (most likely never did)
This person has no idea what is going on. Look at what they did with the BM legendary. Hunters were saying that BM would be much more enjoyable to play with that change since alpha - I think. Now they gated it behind a legendary which most BM hunters most likely will never get thier hands on.

It's really sad to see that one of the most plaed classes since vanilla has such a shitty class-dev.
Blizzard should may consider hiring a competent one or open the old "elite forums" in which the top players had chances to share thier ideas directly with the devs. (or both)

[Banard]

I also have the feeling that whoever designs our class hasn't even played a hunter in legion. (most likely never did)
This person has no idea what is going on.

This is not speculation this is truth and it has been for a long time. This became obvious when they fixed the 5+ year bug that bestial wrath broke CC.....five plus years...over two expansions... and FYI it wasn't a bug...and only got adjusted because BM hunters were OP in PVP in MoP and they were trying to figure out what was on the go. It did as the tool tip said, and was there "will meet you half way because being immune to CC during bestial wrath is to OP".


0 reason to give blizz feedback, from legion alpha, beta, live, PTR....if your unhappy unsubscribe. That is the only thing left.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'm sorry, but you were "quite satisfied" with the answers because you had no idea how MM worked, as you clearly showed by asking about vulnerable stacking. This is not a personal attack, you are absolutely free to know nothing about the hunter class, just like I know nothing about yours.

They did address some of the complaints when the patch went live (increasing the focus pool to avoid capping with SW, increasing MS damage/focus ratio, ...), but at the same time reintroduced the 3xAiS problem by reverting back to 7 seconds vulnerable. Overall they released a spec that is very different to what everybody could test on the PTR, so you can understand why everyone is so pissed (without even talking about performance).

Yeah, i actually thought that this level 60 talent was optional, so i had no idea that vulnerability wasn't stacking for 100% PvE hunters. I honestly enjoyed vulnerability stacking and sentinel talent more while leveling and dungeoning on my hunter

[Deleted]

what a time top roll hunter

whatever you do, dont play hunter.

[natrodamus]

For 7.1.5, I made the switch to BM. And recently got my first legendary for the spec, aspect wrists. You can definitely notice improvements to Hati. If I can compare my damage to that of last weeks, I can definitely notice a nice bump, more than the upgrades to artifact lvls. For the current content of EN/TOV/Mythic+, my damage feels great, but when I compare it to the rest of the raid/party did it starts to get depressing.

I watched speedx's stream on Tuesday and went over his logs, since he has BIS legendries and 54 traits. His damage was extremely solid and is probably the peak or close to it for BM without tier/shoulders. This is where the problems come in, peak damage is competing with other classes 85%. For MM, I definitely understand giving it week or two to let people improve their mechanics, but mechanics did not change with BM.

[sponge5307]

So my BM spec does more dps in ST and Aoe than my MM spec which is not doing 40 to 80k less dps before the patch hits. This is just wrong. BM is a mindless boring spec Is just not suppose to do more dps as MM.

I also like to point out let's just say hey Hunter dps went up by 40k overall across the board but everyone else dps when up by 80+. Sure it went up but it puts us at a worse spot than the patch. This is what people is complaining and blizzard fail to see this.

[Kayagurcu]

As BM (891 equipped, 54 traits, wrists+neck as legendaries), my damage went up. Until Cenarius, i was ahead our mm hunters. I didnt join cenarius+xavius due to i dont need an item from them. I guess mm hunters are still getting use to new mechanics. Hati's movement speed fixed, blink strikes got buffed and superior in every situation. If you are lucky enough to get shoulders plus 2pc/4pc i assume BM is more promising. Lets wait and see whats going to happen in NH

[sponge5307]

As BM (891 equipped, 54 traits, wrists+neck as legendaries), my damage went up. Until Cenarius, i was ahead our mm hunters. I didnt join cenarius+xavius due to i dont need an item from them. I guess mm hunters are still getting use to new mechanics. Hati's movement speed fixed, blink strikes got buffed and superior in every situation. If you are lucky enough to get shoulders plus 2pc/4pc i assume BM is more promising. Lets wait and see whats going to happen in NH

Blink seems good on target switching but for AoE Beast stomp is still better.

[Kayagurcu]

Stomp and BS are not in same tier

[Kwaai]

Yeah, i actually thought that this level 60 talent was optional, so i had no idea that vulnerability wasn't stacking for 100% PvE hunters. I honestly enjoyed vulnerability stacking and sentinel talent more while leveling and dungeoning on my hunter

In other words, you didn't/don't care how strong MM is because you're not going to play it optimally.

[Vellithe]

Blink seems good on target switching but for AoE Beast stomp is still better.

Those two are on different rows, so you can actually get both of them.

[Deleted]

Finally the bottom spot is cushioned as a death knight. Enjoy dealing with blizzard for an entire raid to become viable again, its a long haul.

[Bags]

frost was fine in en / tov lol