Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

[Deleted]

I mean, being able to move while performing half of your rotations IS still pretty mobile compared to other ranged specs. Please feel free to explain, but is the new marks rotation not in fact marked/windburst > 3 aimed shots (the only immobile portion) > a bunch of arcane shots

Windburst has a cast time too.
We have no mobility, arcane spam is not rotation, is focus regen.

[Scrotch]

Windburst has a cast time too.
We have no mobility, arcane spam is not rotation, is focus regen.

Okay, the windburst cooldown also has a cast time. Got it.
But marked/arcane shot still take up at least half the time you are hitting buttons, and provide complete movement freedom, yes?

[Deleted]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that pretty wholeheartedly. Makes sense coming from someone who plays a hybrid. You realize that what if you just said is true, having a single hunter spec be low DPS is just as bad as the entire class not being viable. The reason I chose a hunter was b/c I always assumed one of our specs always would be, well until now :P

Most people with at least half a brain would disagree, its just a stupid statement not even worth the time to reply to to be honest.
So just going to ignore the 2 moonkins now and move on .

[TOM_RUS]

Okay, the windburst cooldown also has a cast time. Got it.
But marked/arcane shot still take up at least half the time you are hitting buttons, and provide complete movement freedom, yes?

And provide zero to none DPS as well. Not to mention ppl are still using Sidewinders most of the time because arcane shot spam sucks.

Fire mage can cast Scorch on the move as well, so what?

[markos82]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that pretty wholeheartedly. Makes sense coming from someone who plays a hybrid. You realize that what if you just said is true, having a single hunter spec be low DPS is just as bad as the entire class not being viable. The reason I chose a hunter was b/c I always assumed one of our specs always would be, well until now :P

Makes sense coming from someone who selects top dps spec of one class and sticks with it, because why put AP and collect gear for other DPS specs when they do all the same thing which is, guess what dps. The reason you chose hunter is bad then, because you choose it not to play a class because its fun but because you wanna have big epeen and you wanna show of your dps. The reason i chose moonkin is because i love the class, yes it makes me mad when no matter how much i try I would never be as good as pure dps class but should i cry about that? No, i loved to play iit before patch and I love to play it now after patch when finally we do some nice aoe dmg and good ST dmg. Whould i cry in 2 weeks when Blizzard decides to nerf us, no I wouldnt, will i switch to some other spec, no because I choose moonkin not to top dps meter but to enjoy the game.

[Bags]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that pretty wholeheartedly. Makes sense coming from someone who plays a hybrid. You realize that what if you just said is true, having a single hunter spec be low DPS is just as bad as the entire class not being viable. The reason I chose a hunter was b/c I always assumed one of our specs always would be, well until now :P

again, WW being dead is just as bad as all 3 hunter specs being dead, because if WW is dead my monk is dead to me

Most people with at least half a brain would disagree, its just a stupid statement not even worth the time to reply to to be honest.
So just going to ignore the 2 moonkins now and move on .

i don't play moonkin, im just pointing out you can't go "well you can just re-roll to another role" like that's an acceptable substitute for classes that can do more than just dps

if my WW spec was dead I wouldn't have a raid spot because we already have too many tanks and healers, so my 1 dps spec being dead is just as bad as all 3 hunter specs being bad, so I don't see "YEAH WELL YOU CAN AT LEAST HEAL/TANK if your dps is bad" as a valid argument

but maybe thats just cuz i dont have half a brain huh

[Scrotch]

And provide zero to none DPS as well. Not to mention ppl are still using Sidewinders most of the time because arcane shot spam sucks.

Fire mage can cast Scorch on the move as well, so what?

Scorch isn't an integral part of the fire mage rotation. Arcane shot is. It truly doesn't matter how you feel about arcane shot. It is still a completely necessary part of the optimal build's rotation.

Honestly, this is kind of a silly side argument anyway. I mean, yes, I get it, marksman is less mobile than it used to be in the past. It is still more mobile than most ranged classes. This mobility should not be a reason to keep them at the bottom of the damage rankings in raiding environments. Hunters are at the bottom of rankings at this moment in time. This should be fixed.

side note - I feel like a couple of you missed the point of my list. Saying a spec/class *should* be lower in damage for X reason is silly because dang near all of them have a unique strength.

[Makro]

1. True but with 25 AK you can make 500k AP easy if you do just WQ and daily dungeon, in a week ( provided you do EN, ToV and few M+ ) you will be at 35 points or close. Yes alts cant have that high AK but with catch up system it should be much easier.

I don't think you understand that 54 traits before Mythic NH is pretty much required (and rightfully so) in guilds of many different levels.

3. You dont need BiS items to get into a group nor to do high dps ( well trinkets you need ofc ). And new raid opens in <week you will have plenty of chances to get good items with higher ilvl + Tier bonus

4. Easy to get, each day there is at least 1 relic quest that can proc to 870 or more, you can get all 3 840 relics in less than a week if you do daily and few mythics with friends.

Gearing alts is EZ ( I admit that I only have 1 at 110 but i have 15 more on 100 ) if you have friends that are willing to help out. Most ppl i know in game geared freshly leveled 110 to 850-860 in less than a week.

Getting to 850-860 is one thing, getting to 880+ with proper stats/trinket/traits is a whole different thing.

[Dracodraco]

I mean, being able to move while performing half of your rotations IS still pretty mobile compared to other ranged specs. Please feel free to explain, but is the new marks rotation not in fact marked/windburst > 3 aimed shots (the only immobile portion) > a bunch of arcane shots

Sidewinders (which still seems to be the better choice for a fair few fights, due to cleave) is far less mobile as "arcane spam" gets shortened to "1 sidewinder every 10 seconds". Likewise, the issue isn't that aimed shot lends us immobile - all casters deal with the same. The issue arises when you have to stand still for 6 seconds *in a row*. Go ask a mage with the hardcast-pyro bracers how fun a 4 second immobility cast to get off their pyroblast is. Now add another 2 seconds on top. Yea, it's not great.

[markos82]

I don't think you understand that 54 traits before Mythic NH is pretty much required (and rightfully so) in guilds of many different levels.

No its not, I know many mythic guild members and non of them is required to have 54 points into main weapon. That might be true for those who are aiming for realm/world first....

Getting to 850-860 is one thing, getting to 880+ with proper stats/trinket/traits is a whole different thing.

And? If you chose different class and your guild has HC or M on farm you can gear in 2 weeks, not with bis items ofc... provided they wanna gear you up

[Tehterokkar]

So what? I play as moonkin as MS i dont care if other specs are good. You played as MM hunter i bet, why didnt you played with spec that was doing less dps? Because you wanna top meters or you like the spec? I played as moonkin since they became a thing, never changed the spec or class.



It was top on aoe and ST pn most fights before patch, and as i said above i dont care if other 3 specs are great, the spec I played ( moonkin ) was shit on aoe and average on ST compared to other classes.



Would you rather take moonkin or mage, monk, DH.... prio patch to some high M+? That was one fight where moonkin shined in WoD, yeah we did good with 4 set bonus in HFC but we were always in middle. Hunter not topping dps, omg the world will end.

You never specified M+, and this thread is mainly about raids. Sure Moonkins are not the best for (especially lower levels of)M+, but they are not bad either, they have lots of CC(especially helpful during Necrotic weeks), a battle ress and still bring very good ST for bosses.

Moonkins are more than fine in raids. They are very good ST, great burst on priority targets and also have excellent spread AoE/Cleave(especially with Stellar Drift) for fights such as Helya.

If you don't find this true, then maybe the issue isn't with the spec, it's with the player. Our Boomkin has been consistently on the upper half of the DPS meter, in EN he was usually top 3 for fights such as Ursoc.

[Scrotch]

Sidewinders (which still seems to be the better choice for a fair few fights, due to cleave) is far less mobile as "arcane spam" gets shortened to "1 sidewinder every 10 seconds". Likewise, the issue isn't that aimed shot lends us immobile - all casters deal with the same. The issue arises when you have to stand still for 6 seconds *in a row*. Go ask a mage with the hardcast-pyro bracers how fun a 4 second immobility cast to get off their pyroblast is. Now add another 2 seconds on top. Yea, it's not great.

Ah, that is understandably frustrating. Thank you for taking the time to explain that for me. That is a big hit to QoL, and it doesn't sound like something that can be easily changed in a hotfix either. Well, hopefully they'll at least give you guys the warlock treatment and buff the numbers even if the play style sucks until they can (hopefully) fix it in the next patch, because I fully understand the pains of spec/main swapping in Legion.

[markos82]

You never specified M+, and this thread is mainly about raids. Sure Moonkins are not the best for (especially lower levels of)M+, but they are not bad either, they have lots of CC(especially helpful during Necrotic weeks), a battle ress and still bring very good ST for bosses.

Moonkins are more than fine in raids. They are very good ST, great burst on priority targets and also have excellent spread AoE/Cleave(especially with Stellar Drift) for fights such as Helya.

If you don't find this true, then maybe the issue isn't with the spec, it's with the player. Our Boomkin has been consistently on the upper half of the DPS meter, in EN he was usually top 3 for fights such as Ursoc.

There is no need to specify that i think. I mean hunters were great in M+ and raids, we have both things in game why not consider it from start.

1m long silence? Tyhoon/roots/bash depending what you spec isnt really a lot of CC I wont count FoN, we dont have mass stun for example which is way better to have in M+, like locks have ( depending on spec ) + they also bring ress ( SS ) that is great on some M+ tactics. Yes we are good on ST and now much, much better ( had 800k ST dmg on some M+ fight - lower ones 5-8 ) but we didnt brought anything that special into group, now when we are buffed its a different story....

And now we are even better, I never said we are not good I said we were never best like hunters were ( on ST and MT ), we did bad compared to others before patch, now we can top meters on many fights. Yes Helya is great for us, even better if we have bracers and im happy about that and I hope it will stay like that ( That Blizzard wont nerf us ).

Moonkin position depends on entire raid, the better the overall dmg is the better the dps is, like destro lock building up his dmg at one point. The longer the fight is - ST we drop on meters when we run out of CDs.

[Dracodraco]

Ah, that is understandably frustrating. Thank you for taking the time to explain that for me. That is a big hit to QoL, and it doesn't sound like something that can be easily changed in a hotfix either. Well, hopefully they'll at least give you guys the warlock treatment and buff the numbers even if the play style sucks until they can (hopefully) fix it in the next patch, because I fully understand the pains of spec/main swapping in Legion.

Keep in mind that we still have a bunch of instants in the arcane shot spec, so we're theoretically "mobile"; but during Sidewinders, the only instants are procs (either lock and load for aimed shots, marking targets for marked shot, or the 10 second cd sidewinder). That said, even if half of the rotation *is* mobile, it doesn't help a lot when you can't really "choose" when you want to be mobile - that's the thing for a spec like destro. You can choose when to unload a conflag charge to move, or when to refresh havoc somewhere etc for the global-movement. It's still shit, but atleast it's not proc-reliant.

[xZerocidex]

I think the biggest question we need to answer, is how do we not only provide meaningful feed back to the Devs, but present it any a way that is inviting instead of hostile.

Good lord, ppl still continue to believe that they will listen to feedback?

[Donkeywing]

I need a safe space right about now

[Deavane]

That talk about pure dps class and hybrid is so old and boring. There is no reason why one class should outperform another just because all 3 specs are pure dps. And hunter is still viable and new patch is up for 3 days only now, there will be nerfs and fixes to classes before NH or shortly after it opens. It was the same with fuss about fire mage, last night i did +9 BRH with one and his average dps was +850k for entire run.
Ever since the gear between classes changes ( melee and dps ) gearing became so much easier, only problem is AP that when spent is only for one spec. Atm i'm at 47, 35, 35 and i play with all 3 spec ( moonkin, guardian and resto ) and i do only WQ that grant AP, daily dungeon, HC raid and 7 mythic + per week.

And as I said, atleast one of the hunter specs needs to be top 12. I'm not asking for it to be the best, but when it comes to being competitive in the Mythic environment, that's the bare minimum. If non of the specs bring DPS, there's little reason to bring a hunter outside of turtle currently. We don't bring competiitive DPS currently.

I'm excited to see what this hotfix brings for us.

[Feanoro]

I'd like to extend special thanks to all the Blizzard defenders and esteemed representatives of other classes for coming to reassure us that everything is fine.

[Deleted]

I reccomend you delete Skada/Recount. As soon as you stop caring about numbers the sooner you will enjoy playing the game. I'm a warloc, I've spent the entirety of this expansion on the very bottom of the DPS table, fortunately I enjoy playing destro lock, so IDGAF. It's nice that they are pretty decent now, but I'd play it even if it wasn't. They've already said buffs are incomming, no need to moan tbh. Your gonna be bottom for a week or two, I was bottom for months.

Well i played BM for same reason but once they replaced me because my dps was lowest so... I am fine with that but there is 24 more ppl.

[Cque]

That's what I described. It's also not what you described in your post previously. You were talking about buffs and nerfs in general when the nerfs they didn't do were to S2M specifically and the buffs they did were to nonS2M specifically. You described it as if Blizzard wanted to buff SP in general at first and then ended up buffing them in general because of people bitching.

Make reasonable suggestions and Blizzard might listen. Don't expect them to completely oppose their opinion just because you tell them to.

My apologize maybe I wasn't clear enough they were getting nerfs to tune S2M down, and that ended up not happening to a degree but they still got most of the changes removed and some buffs as well.