Hunters are crying.. but what about mages and shaman ?

[Jahrastafari]

As someone with Spehuz, the chest, the boots and the helm (yay)... 'suffering' puts it lightly.

Thank god for my lock alt people are helping me level and the guild is going to gear me in mythic+ and a mythic EN run before next reset

bye bye mages

You're going to miss the shit out of Fire's mobility and cleave in Nighthold.

[Zoldor]

You're going to miss the shit out of Fire's mobility and cleave in Nighthold.

But affliction on Guarm is sooo goooooood now! There is no way it won't have problems in Nighthold.

[Deleted]

Sorry, mages for all of 5 days you haven't been walkng gods. We're sorry. They'll buff you don't worry they always do. When has there ever not been at least one Mage spec fairly dominate in some form of PvE or PvP?

I think we have found someone still playing in HFC.
Welcome in legion with 7.0/7.1 stats : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...lty=4&region=1
Where is your mage totally dominating pve ?!
Mage were needing buff in 7.1.5 not a nerf. If you are owned by a mage since 7.1 you are terrible.

As i said previously, even when there is clearly logs showing that mages are low tiers there are still people claiming that mages don't need some buff. Mage haters hating.

[mistahwilshire]

Arcane Mage with Nighthold gear is literally one of the best specs in the game. Stop bitching unless you're going to view the full picture and bring knowledge to the equation. What you're seeing right now in ToV will flip on it's ass three times in the next two weeks as all the tiers, insane trinkets, and Versatility come in to the picture.

ToV data is frankly completely irrelevant. It's a different world next week.

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I think we have found someone still playing in HFC.
Welcome in legion with 7.0/7.1 stats : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...culty=4®ion=1
Where is your mage totally dominating pve ?!
Mage were needing buff in 7.1.5 not a nerf. If you are owned by a mage since 7.1 you are terrible.

As i said previously, even when there is clearly logs showing that mages are low tiers there are still people claiming that mages don't need some buff. Mage haters hating.

Nobody besides Hunters (who are the only ones that it's obvious missed a numbers pass) should have anything changed until at least two weeks of Nighthold gearing have passed. The numbers you're seeing right now for everyone but Hunters are COMPLETELY irrelevant.

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You're going to miss the shit out of Fire's mobility and cleave in Nighthold.

Looks like no one told you Arcane is miles better and one of the best specs in the game in Nighthold. Oops. I feel so bad for all you stupid fucks that think the current hierarchy is how things will stay with Nighthold gear. You're all literally arguing over irrelevant data.

[Zoldor]

Arcane Mage with Nighthold gear is literally one of the best specs in the game. Stop bitching unless you're going to view the full picture and bring knowledge to the equation. What you're seeing right now in ToV will flip on it's ass three times in the next two weeks as all the tiers, insane trinkets, and Versatility come in to the picture.

ToV data is frankly completely irrelevant. It's a different world next week.

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Nobody besides Hunters (who are the only ones that it's obvious missed a numbers pass) should have anything changed until at least two weeks of Nighthold gearing have passed. The numbers you're seeing right now for everyone but Hunters are COMPLETELY irrelevant.

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Looks like no one told you Arcane is miles better and one of the best specs in the game in Nighthold. Oops. I feel so bad for all you stupid fucks that think the current hierarchy is how things will stay with Nighthold gear. You're all literally arguing over irrelevant data.

Stop with all this information and logic. They want to be top right now! This is mage we are talking about, they aren't allowed to be even thought of as bad. But when they are good, they want to say, meh we aren't the top so we aren't good either. I swear biggest cry baby community of them all.

Also, again, some of these people need to learn how to look at logs. You want to see your DPS leaders choose A fight, over the period of the time for the patch, not two weeks. Seriously the guy you quoted in response to me needs some help.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=80

Must be hard being within 30k to 50k dps of everyone but the two outliers. But yeah, Mage needs the buffs not Hunters and one of the shaman specs. Warlock so OP better reroll! Lets see what happens when you get better players and gear....
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=90
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=95
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...e=7&dataset=99

Damn rough on mages. Why choose Guarm? Because it is the only fight you can race DPS. Sorry, but numbers for other fights aren't worth looking at unless you are comparing yourself to other people of the same class. Fight design is always going to be an issue for DPS. Some specs will always be better at certain fight types no way around it. Helya is an awful fight to pick DPS numbers on, too easy to cheese ball certain parts, super cleave is going to dominate etc. Same with Odyn, excessive movement, multiple targets, bad luck on mechanics etc. Guarm is about the only ToV fight you can do DPS charting on and give the base of who is good and who is bad. Even then SOOOOO few parse numbers, especially Helya. ToV is a joke of a place to look at numbers for. It is going to favor dominately any spec that excels at two target cleave.

[Jahrastafari]

I feel so bad for all you stupid fucks that think the current hierarchy is how things will stay with Nighthold gear. You're all literally arguing over irrelevant data.

I feel sorry you're so angry about what spec people play in a video game. Maybe you need to take a step back for a minute and breathe? Maybe then you can see how this might be an inappropriate, disproportionate and hyperbolic response to the comment you quoted?

I think we can all be adults here and discuss a video game without getting so angry and disrespectful.

[Deleted]

Damn rough on mages. Why choose Guarm? Because it is the only fight you can race DPS. Sorry, but numbers for other fights aren't worth looking at unless you are comparing yourself to other people of the same class. Fight design is always going to be an issue for DPS. Some specs will always be better at certain fight types no way around it. Helya is an awful fight to pick DPS numbers on, too easy to cheese ball certain parts, super cleave is going to dominate etc. Same with Odyn, excessive movement, multiple targets, bad luck on mechanics etc. Guarm is about the only ToV fight you can do DPS charting on and give the base of who is good and who is bad. Even then SOOOOO few parse numbers, especially Helya. ToV is a joke of a place to look at numbers for. It is going to favor dominately any spec that excels at two target cleave.

Its totally stupid.
Some spec are design to be better at ST than others because these others shall be better for cleave/spread target/aoe scenario.
So checking only a ST fight is stupid as fuck.

There are some spec good at everything like for example SP, Fury, Pal Ret, assa.. while some specs are bad at everything like hunters, mages, shaman.
Im not saying mages need a huge buff, im saying that right now, ret is dealing 75k dps (15% DPS difference) more than our best mage spe on ST (guarm) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#boss=1962

While also doing better than our best mage spe in a AoE scenario (Helya) :
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=2008&sample=7

How the fuck except if you are totally braindead cannot understand that this situation is NOT normal ?

TOV is an excellent sample because odyn is a spread target scenario, guarm a ST scenario and helya a AoE scenario. Only cleave scenario is missing.

Mage is having 3 DPS spec but still none allow mages to do better than a ret on every scenario.
a Frost doing better than a ret shall be normal on ST if ret is doing better on AoE.
A Fire doing better than a ret shall be normal on AoE if ret is doing better on ST.
A mage (using two spe) doing better than a ret everywhere means that he has farmed 2x more AP, 2x more gears and 2x more legendary so he clearly deserve it, while a mage only playing frost shall do better than a Pal Ret on ST but worst on AoE.
THIS is balancing.

[Deleted]

Hunters are getting buffed because.

A: Our entire rotation got changed for the worse with a huge DPS nerf. 100k+ dps.

B: We're still THE WORST class for single target in the game, and god forbid during 7 sec we have to move if else we go lower.

C: Our AOE got gutted down into the shitter. Hunter's before where brung for their Godlike AOE. We're now down to being one of the worse AOE classes for a class that has an entire mechanic just to AOE.

D: We offer no raid utility, atleast mages brings bloodlust. We come with nothing another class currently can't do, other than turtle which is used to cheese 2 mechanics over these 10 bosses (Cenarius, Helya)

E: Our new rotation is plain not fun. Currently as a hunter, you'll ONLY USE arcane arrow to 115 focus, it doesn't matter if you get procs or not. It's irrelevant. once at 115 focus use your proc, and use 3 aimed shots, and if you have to move. Then goodbye dps.


All of the hunter specs are at the bottom, when has a pure dps class ever been at the bottom with all specs? Never. Mages currently have 1 spec which is in the middle of the pack, dont say bottom, if you look you'll see it's in 1-5 percentile which is enough to say middle.

This!!

I have to say though that I havent read much complainment about PVP for marksman hunters in 7.1.5. It's utter SH*T!

Am I the only hunter rooting for PVP changes? Removal of freezing arrow + bad and gimped DPS rotation, damage has gone down a bunch! + special abilities like Piercing shot does less than aimed shot in pvp, hits like a feather...

I bet mages are bad too but we hunters (esp Marksman) really have a reason for this complaining. I began 7.1.5 telling people to stop whining so much, until I did PVP on my hunter... I think the PVE is decent, I can do 650k total dps in mythics so mythics are fine, single target not super fine.

[Dobby3939]

i'm saying hunters is not the worst class. Sad reality.

If you're implying that Mages are currently worse off than Hunters you need to get your head examined.

[Zoldor]

Its totally stupid.
Some spec are design to be better at ST than others because these others shall be better for cleave/spread target/aoe scenario.
So checking only a ST fight is stupid as fuck.

There are some spec good at everything like for example SP, Fury, Pal Ret, assa.. while some specs are bad at everything like hunters, mages, shaman.
Im not saying mages need a huge buff, im saying that right now, ret is dealing 75k dps (15% DPS difference) more than our best mage spe on ST (guarm) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#boss=1962

While also doing better than our best mage spe in a AoE scenario (Helya) :
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=2008&sample=7

How the fuck except if you are totally braindead cannot understand that this situation is NOT normal ?

TOV is an excellent sample because odyn is a spread target scenario, guarm a ST scenario and helya a AoE scenario. Only cleave scenario is missing.

Mage is having 3 DPS spec but still none allow mages to do better than a ret on every scenario.
a Frost doing better than a ret shall be normal on ST if ret is doing better on AoE.
A Fire doing better than a ret shall be normal on AoE if ret is doing better on ST.
A mage (using two spe) doing better than a ret everywhere means that he has farmed 2x more AP, 2x more gears and 2x more legendary so he clearly deserve it, while a mage only playing frost shall do better than a Pal Ret on ST but worst on AoE.
THIS is balancing.

Those are called outliers. Hence why I said all but the two outliers. Like Shadow was for the entire previous tier. On the helya link you showed it is barely 30k between mage and the majority of other specs if that. Even that helya fight it isn't insanely disparaged. You are also seeing all of 12 and 14 parses for Arcane and Frost. Specs that until this point have been mostly ignored in the Mythic raid scene because Fire is the obvious choice. Again, a SMALL number of parses all around on that fight, what just above 1k if that. Want to see how easy it is to with this few parses to mix it up. Move up to players playing at the top of their game say the 95th percentile....and guess who is above Ret?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...008&dataset=95

Again, I'm not brain dead, thanks for the comment. You just are overracting and your class isn't bad, you have bad specs in ToV right now with current gear. Call me in a month when Arcane is thrashing it in NH. But whatever the sky is falling, because you aren't number 1. That is what you are saying with your complaint about not being better than ret at ST Guarm, instead of seeing that you are in the middle with everyone else, but one other outlier spec.

Also, pure single target fights are most commonly used to determine DPS standings overall. As it is just about the only time you can play a spec without a ton of mechanical interruption, which will always skew numbers to the direction of certain specs, namely melee. In fact if you take your helya log and remove melee from it, Fire Mage is #3. And #3 and #5 on Guarm at a very narrow dps margins.

[Zardam]

I run in a heroic/mythic raiding guild as a fire mage, with two hunters and a ele shaman. We had a good long qq sesh after heroic tov yesterday, the specs are honesty much worse than a week ago in terms of play style. I can't talk for ele or hunters beyond that, but my performance on my mage was very lack luster with the new meteor/mi build, and a whole lot less fun. Even if they bring the dps up to be competitive, the spec will still play terribly. The best part is we run with 2 ret palys, both with bis legendaries and their damage is stupid high, like 30-40% higher single target. Was a pretty interesting raid, lols and keks galore.

I understand blizz wanted to make other mage specs more appealing, as a vast majority of raiding mages were fire, but the answer to that problem is not to break the popular spec. Its terrible game design to make one spec too powerful relative to the others, leave it that way for 3 months, have a huge amount of players learn that spec and gear specifically for it, only to be left arbitrarily weak...especially after a gigantic amount of outcry from the ptr over months of testing. The real kicker is fire mage wasn't even that strong single target, especially without the two bus legendaries. The whole situation fosters anger and doubt towards the devs, and the game as a whole.

[antelope591]

It must be stressful as fuck being a Mythic raider. The constant buff/nerf cycle (and getting sat because of it), the constant need to grind anything and everything all day every day for that extra 1%. Having to have a developer level knowledge of every class, every ability every encounter and every mechanic. Endlessly watching streams and reading logs looking for any gimmick to give you another 0.5% more. I don't know how you folks do it.

Here I am, just a dopey M+/heroic raider thinking thinks were pretty good for us and that I was really enjoying the Fire changes. I genuinely had no idea things were so dire.

Mages aren't bad right now by any means...just that a few other classes are better. They're certainly nowhere close to hunter level bad. People will complain no matter what, unless you're a shadow priest. Of course I'll always take any kind of buff tho :O

[Doffen]

Ranger’s Net will no longer proc Sephuz's Secret on a target that is immune to Roots.

Here, Survival back to being shittiest :P

[YanquiUXO]

I don't want to hear any hunters crying about bad rotations until they try out Enhancement's new rotation. We literally have 10 shitty buttons to keep track of. Stop crying.

[Imnick]

Don't worry, Shaman are definitely also crying.
Rerolled to maybe get away from some of the whiners, turns out they play every class

[Deleted]

Don't worry, Shaman are definitely also crying.
Rerolled to maybe get away from some of the whiners, turns out they play every class

Are they also playing pal ret, rogue and SP ?

[Imnick]

Are they also playing pal ret, rogue and SP ?

Oh boy are they.

[YanquiUXO]

Rerolled to maybe get away from some of the whiners, turns out they play every class

Maybe the common denominator isn't the whiners but Blizzard's idiotic class design/balance team?

[Deleted]

http://i.imgur.com/zdXKhcD.gifv

[Doffen]

http://i.imgur.com/zdXKhcD.gifv

Haha awesome!