Best solution to the Mythic raid size problem?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Recruit enough players to be able to field a 20 man raid.

[cFortyfive]

1) I can't for the life of me figure out what this sentence aims to achieve.

It's really not that hard.
Orbs. Have you played the encounter on mythic ? It's a major difference when you have only two people kite even if you'd increase he orb size.

To not realize that it's parity, well, nevermind... look who the hell I'm talking to. Mr. Flex.

Sure sure lfr heroes and their simple ideas

[Wrecktangle]

Without seeing the problem, it's hard for me to identify solutions. Of course I'm inside looking out. This is merely my perspective.

This statement has kind of been one of the cornerstones of my argument. It's very easy for people who aren't effected to say there is no problem, but as I've stated I've seen both sides of the fence and there is most certainly a problem.

The piece that I am not confident about is whether the problem is WORTH fixing. I believe it is, but I am open to being incorrect. I offered scenarios that would personally help me, but here I am still with no one able to explain why they'd ruin their experience.

1. Friends that I love to play with aren't good enough for the content and therefore get benched will sometimes quit the game. Not really anything that other players can fix, but it happens nonetheless.

This is an issue, and honestly one that I'm not smart enough to fix.

2. The limit on the raid size causes skilled players to have to be benched. Easy fix, just recruit more, right? Not as easy as it sounds, and herein lies the problem where I agree x-server Mythic raiding could help.

Ok so we're in agreement here. For the sake of reasonable discussion (something many others have shown repeatedly they're incapable of) is there a single negative aspect to this that you're able to find?

The problem with Mythic is not the system. To me, it is moreso the players. If you want Mythic completion above all else, there ARE guilds out there recruiting. If you want to play with your friends above all else, then Mythic raiding will suffer because it is likely not all of your personal friends can keep up. And if your guild is having recruitment issues, you're either on a low-pop server (which is the one case I'd say is Blizzard's responsibility to amend with x-server but even then, you could transfer to a high-pop server) or your guild is not progressing in a way that attracts other players to join your roster.

I won't say you're wrong here, but let's analyze the root cause and not the surface issue. Why are the players the problem? Because they don't have the tools to do the content they want.

If I could xrealm raid mythic I'd be doing so. If I could squeeze in on a bench and raid when they need people and sit when they don't, I'd do that. None of these tools are available to me currently. I have to commit fully (something my adult life makes much more difficult these days). It'd be much easier to commit if knowing I miss a raid day or two a month the whole place doesn't give me shit (aka small flex allowing them to run 19, or 21 instead of 22.

Maybe the problem is the player, not the game, generally speaking. It is a difficulty that pushes players to the limit of what they will do to complete it. It will most definitely have a price to achieving. You may leave your current guild, your friends, you may have to raid more than the average guy. There is no doubt that is does not come easy or without sacrifice to play at the highest level with success.

This also resonates with my argument. I agree that sacrifice in some semblance is necessary, the question I've posed is if it's possible to maintain existing content, but remove some of the sacrifices, not all? I believe it is.

Mythic is perfect the way it is the only people who complain are either:

1) Have no desire to put in effort to recruit
2) Have no desire to spend $$ transferring to find a guild

Your assumption that Mythic is "perfect" is flawed. That implies there is absolutely no room for improvement, which you may believe, but that is not a fact by any means.

This post also misses the point of the post considerably. It's not about effort or desire. It's about making it easier to do those things than they currently are without compromising ex. It would be infinitely easier to recruit for mythic progression if a guild had access to more than just 1 server.

It would be easier to recruit for mythic if players knew that they were going to be able to come to more than 1 fight a tier (aka bench, or rotated in only for farm).

I would rather any day of the week having Blizzard develop more encounters that rival the difficulty of Helya... then worry about properly balancing 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, etc man versions, bc the fact of the matter is even dropping one or two people can drastically change encounters (ie for a 20 person encounter, 3 healers just might not be enough throughput but 4 is over kill, so all guilds drop to 18 man and 3 heal easily).

But people like to complain bc apparently the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" must be lost on all these people.

So do you firmly believe that the two are mutually elusive? That they couldn't tune Helya difficulty and have it be very similar across 18-22?

Very often everything is done in groups. I.e. ranged do x, melee do X, or occasionally a single person is assigned a task, in which case tuning between 18-22 wouldn't be anything other than numbers balancing which I believe is more than capable of handling a small flex appropriately.

Things like taints or orbs in Helya wouldn't change. There'd still be 5 taints with 18 or 22. There'd still be 3 orbs. Managing those mechanics with 18 would be no harder than with 20 or 22.

In your example are you referring to throughput over time (say 10m encounter), or at a specific point (i.e. high burst AOE damage phase)? In the latter an extra healer would be invaluable on progression to offer a cushion here, unless the DPS check was unreal. In which case you'd do what you did for Guarm. You'd run as little heals as possible anyway, I don't think you'd run less players.

+1

Lots of casuals in here complaining that mythic raiding isn't just heroic+. A part of me hopes they revert heroic raiding back to set numbers just to blast these players back to reality. Making everything flex this and flex that just takes away from the difficulty, challenge, and prestige of high level raiding. It should take a little bit of dedication and sacrifice to beat the hardest content in the game. If it didn't the game would be extremely boring. You would think a "top US raider" would understand that after posting wall after wall of text in this thread

I like the dig at me. Super cute buddy.

Mythic is already plenty challenging and difficult. I'm simply advocating for making it more accessible, not easier. You're more than welcome to tell me why opening mythic xrealm is bad for mythic raiders. YOu're also more than welcome to cite specific raid boss mechanics that would not work at 18, but do at 20.

But he is discussing it with this small representation, so it is reasonable in this context. If you want to go outside of it, you should bring data from outside...

I have no issues whatsoever with discussing the data, I have issues with drawing conclusions as facts on the data. There is a difference.

I am certainly better than most people when it comes to gaming simply because the average player doesn’t exactly set a high standard. 4 k mmr isn't great, world 150 isn't great, 90 percentile isn't great, lem isn't great - but sadly it’s more than enough to set you apart significantly.
You have easier to appease standards when it comes to encounter design while I having played at a certain level for quite some time have different ideas about it. Same goes for your potential recruits - again I and certainly no guild I know at that level can make much use of someone who can’t be arsed to make a simple transfer.

You still aren't listening/understanding. It's not about the transfer. It's about why BOTHER having to transfer to raid mythic. Not a single person (you included) have given a single reason (let alone compelling) for not allowing mythic to be xrealm.

I genuinely hope you aren’t serious. Pulling numbers out of your ass analytical? You really want to be perceived as a joke. Selfishness? Cringeworthy at best considering you are perfectly fine diluting the experience of others to meet your ends.
I answered your question once again but you didn't like the answer. I really can't do much more than telling you that I think it's perfectly fine to leave one game mode where no compromises are being made to increase participation - especially not laughable changes that would have to come to increase it by 70%. I am aware you are dishonest as fuck but even you I presume wouldn't claim such numbers could come together from just a few minor tweaks.

Dishonest? How am I dishonest?

I fabricated a hypothetical scenario to gauge your acceptance of the discussion. The numbers were simply a yes or no statement to determine at what point would x be ok, or not ok. Not sure how/why your panties got crossed over this.

Says the guy constantly stating how his opinions are better, others are just wrong, his group's benefit is the only one that counts - again thanks for the slight amusement.

Please pay more attention in English class kid. I was very clear when I said I don't think my opinions are correct or better. I was merely fostering discussion on possible scenarios where we could improve participation in Mythic. To this date, not a single person has actually tried to refute my comments with examples.

I'll reiterate. What do you LOSE by allowing Mythic xrealm? What do you personally lose by allowing this? How is your game experience diluted?

Again - if mythic flexed to 18-22, what would you personally lose? Don't say difficulty because you don't know for a fact that it would occur. You're welcome to discuss that you BELIEVE it'd be diluted, then you could cite examples of fights and mechanics that'd be impacted to better support your opinion.

Yes space makes a difference in the same manner as having a higher percentage of your raid move for orbs makes a difference. You are really making it quite easy. Same way it makes a difference to have less or more players move with adds, less or more people spreading out as you maybe know or not the good spots in the middle are highly sought after. Or how about guarm ? Wouldn't more people spreading out for licks be annoying? More targets to unload debuffs somewhat better? Isn't it vastly easier to catch axioms if you have four more players available and to deal with the adds ?
But yeah well nothing much to do if it’s all the same to you but please get that experience In a game mode like lfr/heroic/normal

No space doesn't make a difference. You're just going to stack up and move as a unit anyway. Whether 2 people stack up or 4, it changes nothing.

Using Ily as an example dealing with Bloom with 2 more people isn't any harder. Dealing with it with 2 less isn't any harder either.

Another gem by the guy bringing me such touching stories like the one of the former #1 dps who only has one day a week time to play probably to take care for his family who sadly all suffer from cancer. I give it another mildly amusing.

Former #1? Never said that kid, please check with your English teacher. I think you need additional tutoring.

I understand that as a kid in middle school you have a lot more free time than me, and probably a ton less responsibility, but none of that changes the fact that I'd love it to be easier to get back into actual challenging content. Please try to stay on topic of the discussion.

Since you only seem to operate in soap opera examples - what about the struggling guild on shitserver 185 who loses their best player because both an officer and the player in question had a bad day and someone made a snap decision there because how much less commitment is required when everything is available and can't get a replacement on the day and they are sitting there with their sad faces with 17 players? Please think about the childr... err yeah

Again not sure what you're getting at here, just more rambling that doesn't actually answer or ask anything. Please try to stay on topic.

I told you but once again you didn't accept any other opinion because your standards for balancing are lower than mine and you are perfectly fine with paying that price to get you in specific back into the content while I am not.

You're falsely assuming that by adding those 2 features there would be a price to pay or that the quality of encounters would be worse. You're more than welcome to EXPLAIN in detail how that'd actually occur. I don't think you will though since you haven't yet.

As hilarious as it gets - my 5 year old niece also always thinks she's right when she just has another opinion. But then again there are still people in churches so keep on believing that toning down encounter quality for slightly increased participation is definitely the better argument. I pointed you to issues when changing raid sizes but I already know that's nothing you are concerned about because you would just accept it - same way I am not concerned about you and your three and a half friends finding a mythic pug raid when they clearly belong in heroic. At least I am not in denial over the fact that I simply don't give a fuck for your group of one day a week players and don't have to pretend or actually lie to myself that bringing in more people is for any reason but your own benefit the best solution for you and your peers

Yeah right thanks for the laugh. Dodging a line on a mistake is exactly the same as dodging a triangle or quadrangle

LOL you're so mad here it's laughable.

You haven't pointed to a single issue about small flex. You SAID that it'd reduce encounter quality, but haven't actually explained how it would.

You haven't pointed to a single issue about xrealm mythic.

You haven't actually understood a single post I made because every response from you is a either a non-answer, personal attack, or pitiful attempt at wit.

If you could actually read English you'd have seen that I don't claim to be right, I just want someone to tell me why I am wrong or explain what I missing.

No one has done it yet.

[cFortyfive]

LOL you're so mad here it's laughable.

I don't think I am particularly mad considering you are the one crying over not being able to spend 20 bucks and doesn't have a single argument that can't be boiled down to some emotional appeal. I have played a quite decent last addon raid content wise and even though this addon is a bit lackluster it still had some acceptable encounters. Enjoy your random nythendra pugs.

I understand that as a kid in middle school you have a lot more free time than me

I'd be worried if my disposable income wouldn't allow me to spend 20 dollars. Sadly though even my "middle school" schedule doesn't really allow me to waste as much time on some random failure so I'll keep it a bit shorter from now on.

No space doesn't make a difference. You're just going to stack up and move as a unit anyway. Whether 2 people stack up or 4, it changes nothing.

Also enjoy your lfr progression and behind the curve attempts.

[Orangetai420]

They should just create a cross realm guild system. It's not like server identity has mattered since WotLK. Might as well open up mythic cross server and give us a way to connect with other players besides btag.

[Battlebeard]

Completly flexible, I've said this for a long time.

Heroic Raids work great if you ask me and I don't see why they won't do this for Mythic.

There is seriously no reason for it to not be 10-30 or even 40 man.

Because IF there is an "optimal" size for easiest clears, then those who want to, for realm firsts etc, will have that size. BUT allowing other sizes too, for more "casual" mythic guilds, who don't care for the realm race, would only be a good thing and in no way harmful.

[Akka]

The poll is badly worded : the options about allowing cross-realms don't change anything to the size of the raid, so they aren't incompatible with option 8.

[shyguybman]

I would love 10 man mythic because then I'd actually be doing it.

[BananaHandsB]

There has been a lot of discussion as of late about the current fixed Mythic raid of 20 and the issues it presents. There have been a number of solutions floating around which I have consolidated in this thread. Which solution do you think is the most reasonable going foward (keeping in mind Blizzard's goals of balance, class composition and groups)?

Assuming the current size is a "problem" is begging the question.

[ComputerNerd]

The only solution is what blizzard are doing, having a fixed size.
That way it has meaning, no debate over which is "better" to judge someone on.

The mistake blizzard made was having two sizes in the first place, which they are now making some progress towards cleaning up.

No amount of scaling is ever going to bring two different sizes in-line, nor will it even be consistent in terms of which is simply "more difficult".
Bigger numbers alone do not define encounter difficulty, as there are differences in role ratio's, movement, spacing etc between two different sizes.
That means the higher difficulty could easily swing either way from one encounter to the next, and so killing the point of Mythic being the "meaningful" format.

Flex due to "playing" the roster numbers has introduced random elements, random numbers to prevent breakpoints of ceertain quantities of players to trivialise it as much as possible.
That rules out flex as having any consistent and therefore meaningful difficulty.

Flex sizing of any sort, or two different fixed formats are not solutions.

Some of those answers aren't mutually exclusive.
For example allowing partial cross-realm, while you could still maintain the 20 fixed size.

Most reasonable for who ? Blizzard ? keeping it 20 man.

For the players ? Flexible. But it restricts design too much, so we have to deal with 20 man.

Well well what do we have here another one of those styil gems.
20 is fine there is no problem. Mythic isn't content for everybody as such the content doesn't need a solution best for everybody.

I agree.
Best solution for players in general isn't the best solution to let Mythic be what it is trying to be.
The more people you cater to, the more compromises each will have.
They like to think they are getting everything, but something always has to give.
And that will be the very point of mythic, the meaning it is meant to have.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see 10 back, I really enjoyed it far more than 20 and really could not give a toss about whether people wanted to argue over 10v25. I can't get my head around why anyone cared beyond world / realm first races, and that's really not a particularly big section of the playerbase.

That said - I don't see 10 returning and all the other alternatives are dreadful, keeping it at 20 seems best.

[Wrecktangle]

I don't think I am particularly mad considering you are the one crying over not being able to spend 20 bucks and doesn't have a single argument that can't be boiled down to some emotional appeal. I have played a quite decent last addon raid content wise and even though this addon is a bit lackluster it still had some acceptable encounters. Enjoy your random nythendra pugs.

I'd be worried if my disposable income wouldn't allow me to spend 20 dollars. Sadly though even my "middle school" schedule doesn't really allow me to waste as much time on some random failure so I'll keep it a bit shorter from now on.

Also enjoy your lfr progression and behind the curve attempts.

Omg this is so priceless.

You completely fail at refuting a single argument of mine. Not a single one so you resort to some of the most pathetic/sad attacks I think I've ever seen on these forums.

Fun facts:
I pug much more than just Nythendra on Mythic .
I have all ahead of the curve achievements currently this expansion, including Keystone Master.
In order to progress in LFR I'd have to actually do it. I don't. I do heroic/mythic exclusively, so nice try here kiddo.

I will accept this post as your resignation to the discussion. Thank you for playing. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors going forward. Your results are posted below.

Discussionlogs.com says you parsed in the 9th% for your intellect level. You might want to try high school, college, job, books, etc. to improve your knowledge base for the next discussion you participate in.

Well, I should have been more clear about what I'm saying here. I think it's a problem of people wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. For a service we pay for, that doesn't sound too farfetched. But every now and then I'll see a thread or complaint saying, "I want to raid with my friends and raid Mythic, but there's only 18 of us. Blizzard, you suck for making it require 20 people." <-- I don't think that's Blizzard's fault, or a fault in the system. It's a stubborn mindset that wants it to be setup their way, for their personal reasons. It doesn't have the entire playerbase in mind. Those are the types of players I'm referring to. Like, if you play on a shitty, low-pop Alliance RP server and you want to raid Mythic you MIGHT have to consider a server transfer. You won't be able to have both in most cases, in that situation. That's what I mean by players limiting themselves, ergo being the cause of their own complaint. Blizzard can only balance it to suit the majority.

Grats on US Top 50 btw. You're short selling yourself there. Moving on, I think your example shows a good point.

I want to raid with my friends and raid Mythic, but there's only 18 of us. Blizzard, you suck for making it require 20 people

Do you think that this statement and the one below say essentially the same thing?

I want to raid with my friends and raid Mythic, but there's only 18 of us. Blizzard, you suck for making it immeasurably diffcult to recruit at least 2 more players who fit in with us and can perform.

IMHO I think they say the same thing, but I think it's important to note the distinction. I do this type of work for a living. I have business lines tell me an issue with a software or process they don't like, and EXTREMELY often I'll ask them why they don't like it, or why it doesn't work and its crickets. Literally a room full of 3-4 team leads, 2-3 directors, and not a single word.

If Blizzard were to solve the first example they'd make Mythic raid size smaller. If they were to solve the second, they'd devise ways to improve participation/recruitment. It's important to solve the correct problem, not the first problem IMO.

I can't advocate a "flex" model for Mythic. I agree it would solve all roster and attendance issues, but it would completely dismantle the tuning it requires to make Mythic the challenge that it is. It simply cannot be flexible if we want it to provide us with the same challenge it currently does. I don't think it requires further explanation, either. Tuning encounters at this level is a very tight numbers game with very little margins. To say the content wouldn't be affected if it were open to 18 or 22 raiders isn't thinking very critically. What about the outgoing damage, the incoming heals, the amount of target affected by X debuff... For me it's easy to see how even the slightest bit of flexibility in roster size could throw the entire balance off. Remember, this content is tuned to be the hardest it can be while remaining doable by skilled players. For that to be possible, Blizzard can't tune it in a way that accommodates group sizes ranging between 18 and 22. It's like a house of cards built from a deck. One or two extra cards adds too much weight and it all crumbles. Not enough cards and it can't support itself.

Fair enough. I understand your point of view. (For the record I don't actually want flex mythic, I'm simply discussing to discuss )

I want to use your comment here to bring up something that wasn't brought up at all (as best I can tell). I feel like the assumption is that with any form of mythic flex, the level of difficulty is ASSUMED to go down. Would you be opposed to content being more difficult should you opt to bring 18, or 22? What if with the advent of flex (via tuning), the easiest it could be matches existing difficulty? Naturally that's what everyone would choose to do, but they'd have the option to bring an extra person or two if needed/able etc. Would that be a bad thing? Does this impact your feelings on the topic at all?

The way I see it (and please correct me if you disagree) your top world guilds would be business as usual, where as midcore mythic guilds might suck it up to bring in some extras or still play if they're down a player or two and deal with the minor increase in difficulty.

I think they do have the tools, honestly. I just find that some aren't willing to use them. Can't find a Mythic guild on your server? Use the server transfer tool. Can't find a Mythic guild recruiting in-game? Use the forums as a tool to help find one. Short on people? Make some forum posts on MMO-C and Battle.net. Ask your officers to help recruit. People have the tools to see the content they want to. Do they want to do the work? No. We live in an age of buying carries and shit. People are lazy, but they want the most rewarding scenario possible for as little effort as possible. Don't act like you couldn't find a guild for yourself assuming you have the skill if you set your mind to it. That's a cop-out, not a weakness in the system. You have the freakin' internet at your fingertips, anything is possible.

This is a good point. I should have spoken more clearly. I don't actually mean they don't have the tools. I meant that the tools are outdated, poor, and thus not optimized. I have a bike (a tool), but it's not as optimal as using my car to get to work (not true since I live 5 mins from work and WFH 2 days a week LOL), but for most it is.

The server transfer tool costs money (a barrier for some players, not me personally).

The forums are fine for recruiting. You have to filter by server, faction, class, spec, desired progression, time zone/schedule. I'd hardly call this fun or optimal. Imagine if you could remove the server restriction. Just removing a single one of those increases your prospects EXPONENTIALLY.

These tools work, but are they good? I don't think so.

[cFortyfive]

You completely fail at refuting a single argument of mine.

You should really take your meds.

I pug much more than just Nythendra on Mythic

grats on your elerethe progression in that case.

[Wrecktangle]

You should really take your meds.

grats on your elerethe progression in that case.

You just couldn't help yourself. Keep trying to get me pinned down. So far you're 0/71. That's a solid track record.

Also Fun facts 2.0:
Well past spiderbird, try again.
I do not take, nor need any meds. my PCP can confirm this if you'd like. (Do you even know what a PCP is, considering you're mom still takes you to see a pediatrician?).

Thank you, however I couldn't have done it without the help of our other officers, GM, and fantastic raiders. I am but a mere Rogue stabbing things until they bleed out. Thank you.

You feel like you'll never find people to fit in, but that's not the truth. We're gamers, we all have something in common. But I can't agree and say it's immeasurably difficult.

I agree with your statements about success and magnetism (having also seen it first hand).

One thing I'd like to draw attention to here is that your speaking from the position of the guild recruiting, not the player looking for a guild. Your insight is still beyond invaluable, but I think that's what we're still not meshing on.

Imagine if you were the hunter from your example below. He thought he was joining a really badass strict mythic raiding guild. Then he finds out that you guys are a bunch of sensible adults who just want to have fun and down content in a timely manner (my impression of your guild, please correct if I am mistaken).

So to you he rightly seemed like a dbag and wasn't a good fit, but to him, he didn't realize he joined a guild that isn't as serious or analytical as he was expecting. It wasn't difficult for you at all to pick the best of the applicants, but for him, he had to find you (using the archaic tools previously mentioned), pay the unnecessary transfer fee, and then pray that you guys were what he was looking for. Since it wasn't now he's back to square one again.

I agree the tools are expensive and not the best. To server/faction change being half the cost of a brand new video game title is rather absurd. I speculate on what Blizzard has to do to achieve the transfer, but I'm certain it doesn't require $30 worth of effort on their end. Someone could correct me on that if they have inside knowledge. The other tools are archaic, I also agree, but I'd like to see people use them instead of acting like they aren't there altogether. I must contend, though, I'm not sure it's Blizzard's responsibility to make the tools fun. Recruiting for our guild is very much like taking job applications, just less serious. We ask questions, get a feel for your personality, and decide if you'd fit in our team. I'm not sure that could be reworked to make it more fun, honestly. The way I understand your comments are that we have the tools, they're just not exactly the best ones for the job. Like needing a 10mm socket but all you have is a 10mm wrench. It's gonna bust a few knuckles and take longer, but the job will get done regardless.

It's a quick database script. I could write it in my sleep if I worked there, but I wouldn't have to because they have automated tools that handle it for them. That's how easy it is.

I agree that despite my stance of saying its blizzard's job to ensure the tools we have as players are as best as they can be, that players still don't use them, and may not even use them if they were better.

Your analysis/example/understanding is correct. Using that 10mm wrench is much more work than if you had the socket. Again, as always the issue isn't that the job can't be done (in fact it can quite easily with a moderate amount of effort), the issue is that if there are solutions that can improve the job success rate, why aren't they implemented? Which we've covered most of so no need to rehash.

It would be quite nice if they could implement something on the Battle.net forums that was a more intuitive guild recruitment. Like if a Mage was looking to join a Mythic guild that needed a Mage, there'd be a way he could filter guilds to see only those on the market for a Mage. Or vice versa, where guilds could filter out candidates based on exactly what they're looking for. I agree this could help and be less clunky, and perhaps even promote more players to see the content. I also believe x-server Mythic would help with recruiting. For instance in our guild we had this really badass looking Hunter. His logs were great, he seemed chill, but we could never take him on a trial run because he was on a different server. He transferred and joined us and immediately we realized we'd made a mistake. He was obnoxious, being rude to veterans on his first night. It would have been nice NOT to have to go through all of that to find out he was going to act that way. But I guess Blizzard ultimately wins there, they still got his xfer money.

I'd kill for an easier way to match with guilds who were interested in me. I like your suggestion.

[netherflame]

The problem really isn't the raid size, the problem is there are so many more guilds trying to raid mythic that it limits the amount of players that are available to those guilds. If there are 20 guilds out there who can't field 20 people because they are all short a person, 1 guild breaks up and those people get distributed back into the pool to join guilds. If those people each go to one of the available guilds there are now 19 guilds able to reliably raid. I think the problem is everyone is trying to lead their own guild so there are a bunch of guilds fragmented around that have > 20 but < 15 and rather then dissolving they just struggle to find people and keep their heads above water.

Raids require 20 people but nobody ever wants to sit except for when its convenient for them, so if they are one of those cusp players in like the 18-22 slots they just look for another place to raid. That guild then runs into the problem where if 2 people go find new guilds they are now at 20 and if someone cant raid one night they have a fit since they dont have enough people now.

[gyousel]

the "size problem" is only for wannabe "mythic raiding" guilds, 20man is fine.

Sad but true

To many guilds trying to do content that they just can't achieve and are unwilling to join/merge with another guild trying to achieve the same thing

[cFortyfive]

-Keep trying to get me pinned down. Well past spiderbird, try again.

That I'll leave to your bf. Also congratulations are in order why are you whining that hard in the first place ? Seems like your pugs are perfectly fine so others should be able to accomplish that as well.

[Kanariya]

Current size is fine. If your guild can't recruit for it, then your guild is unfit to run it. Merge or disband, or stick to Heroic.

The real problem is there are far too many realms and Blizz needs to just bite the bullet and merge them. People will get over name changes.

[Wrecktangle]

That I'll leave to your bf. Also congratulations are in order why are you whining that hard in the first place ? Seems like your pugs are perfectly fine so others should be able to accomplish that as well.

Bf? Now you're making assumptions as to my gender/sexual orientation? Now now that's just silly, for reference though my gf is quite a fantastic woman, more of a woman than your mother ever was based on your manners kiddo.

My pugs do go very well. That's not the issue, the issue is I'd like it to be easier to FIND pugs or easier for PUGs to get traction.

[Deleted]

There is no "problem".