Blizzard and PvP: Incompetent or Focused on Bottom Line?

[LaserChild9]

Sum total, "the definition of a minority is less than half" is all you wanted to say. Thanks for the big thought, dear, where we'd be without you.

Yeah, so I'm gonna stop responding to you now as you basically proved my point about you being a moron an all, just repeating what you have already said. Not even sure what the quote above is trying to say tbh. I will say though, why don't you just go play a game that you enjoy rather than criticize a game that you don't? Let's be honest, who's the bigger mug here, Blizzard for running a successful MMO that at least a few million people enjoy, or you for paying to play a game that you don't enjoy?

[rda]

By the way, on the topic of incompetent vs malicious:

Celestalon plays on a tablet, without a mouse. That's the guy who is designing specs, ie, decides whether they are spammy vs okay, whether there's enough buttons to press to be interesting, etc.

A point for Griffindor (incompetent).

[Caolela]

...
Now we knew that 34lvl is the limit for PvP, so we went and did alts and OSs... then before patch day they said FU, 35+ traits available...
If people knew that from the start and clear, as it should be, noone would have spend time playing alts or investing to OSs, they would just farm their main and MS to 54...
So yes, they are not incompetent, they are worthless and they don't know fkn shit about what are they doing... because it's like telling people don't sub again because we shit on your time invested...

But as I keep saying, they know plenty about what they're doing. They're hoping the no-lifers and semi-hardcores will grind out the traits to 50+ which will keep them subbing - WITHOUT having to add any new PvP content or fix other things, which saves Blizz a ton of money. If they get fed up and quit, Blizz is banking on them going to OW or HotS. Many have already done just that and Blizz is quite aware of it.

Either way, they stand to make big bucks with a minimum of effort or overhead invested, and it doesn't matter to them if a large percentage of WoW PvP'ers are unhappy with the state of the game.

Of course they kept this under wraps until the last minute. With the modus operandi that Blizz has had for several years now, all they can do is speak in vague, non-committal terms or outright lie to keep sub numbers up. With every patch and xpac they double down ever more on the bait & switch tactics.

Does one of their devs that came from D3 - the arrogant Jay "Shut Up PvP Guy" Wilson - being able to "retire" at 42 years old, kick back and become a "writer"...sound like incompetence? Or is Acti/Blizz a $4+ billion corporation able to extract maximum profits from their paying customers while keeping them strung out endlessly on hopes that in a few months they'll fix X and Y and the game will get better?

They aren't doing this for the players; they're doing it to please their stock-holders at every quarterly report. In that sense they're no different than most other U.S. corporations today.

I'd bet real folding money that Blizz would much rather have people think they're lazy or incompetent, instead of the reality that they're as filthy greedy as anyone can get, and will do and say anything if it'll squeeze another nickle out of the game. You don't hire a lawyer (Ion H. pretending to be a dev) for his position unless you're going to double down on the spin.

Blizz knows that thinking they're lazy or incompetent is at least somewhat forgivable; people are willing to give them "another chance" to get their asses in gear and get things fixed. If OTOH you thought you were being intentionally lied to and screwed to enrich people like Mr. Wilson, while the product you formerly enjoyed is steadily wrecked for profit, you might take a more hostile opinion of the company and stop buying their products.

[Deleted]

I will preface this with..I was gone almost four years and came back a month before Legion launched, nagged by a friend to PvP with him. I only do random BGs although I did briefly dabble in arenas but I don't particularly care for them and I don't think I'm good enough tbh.

players that "pvp only" are rare indeed, since majority of players do not limit their activities to one thing.

I would say I only PvP although I will admit I do WQs only whilst waiting for queues to pop and I am dragged into a single heroic daily so I can "experience the awesomeness that is PvE." I'm still waiting for that awesomeness.

TL;DR: PvP is fine right now, it's not gated behind gear, it's pure fun for casuals and it still has some competitiveness left for hardcore pvpers (who started to realize that pvp is not the focus of this game and left for other games with better pvp systems).

I'm a filthy casual its not fine and it sure as shit is not fun. My circle of friends and the other casuals I meet in BGs are not finding it fun either, which doesn't make me right and you wrong but that is my experience.

Blizz are out to make money and by giving us different FotM all the time they keep the money rolling in because we keep hoping they will find that magical balance. Personally, I think we have more chance of finding the holy grail.

[Krusza]

1. DH's are not represented in high rated arenas.
2. Almost every spec is viable above 2.2k rating, that means the game is healthy. Sure there are problems still. Class design being one of them.
3. Learn your spec's weaknessess and strenghts, simply learn to play.
4. Make a thread about how bad the pvp is while not being above 1700 rating.
5. Profit? xD

This is the funniest shit I've ever read. Did you pull this out of your ass?

[Deleted]

Sure it wasn't totally serious but I did check in like November about each spec on the ladder. Why do you find it funny? Is it untrue? Isn't MOST specs viable? Not talking about fun, just viabillity. Please DO correct me, I beg you.

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This is the funniest shit I've ever read. Did you pull this out of your ass?

Please tell me what specs aren't viable above 2.2k in 3v3 arena. There's only a few as far as I know. And how am I wrong? You know how many people go to 1900 rated youtubers to ask them how to make a freaking macro to burst. People are THAT... bad? Tell me I am wrong.

[Krusza]

Sure it wasn't totally serious but I did check in like November about each spec on the ladder. Why do you find it funny? Is it untrue? Isn't MOST specs viable? Not talking about fun, just viabillity. Please DO correct me, I beg you.

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Please tell me what specs aren't viable above 2.2k in 3v3 arena. There's only a few as far as I know. And how am I wrong? You know how many people go to 1900 rated youtubers to ask them how to make a freaking macro to burst. People are THAT... bad? Tell me I am wrong.

Nice of you to comment on one of my videos, must be pretty salty.

One thing with Legion arena is that T1 is the only thing worth playing. Due to how dumbed down the game is mechanically, especially since 7.1.5, damage is king. You can argue it 's always been like that, but it's retarded now. You can't play sub-tier comps and expect to win as there's no room for mechanical outplaying anymore. Counter comps 100% counter because of this, and if you're not playing a T1 comp you're going to have a bad time.

Just because a lot of specs are viable, it doesn't mean the game is balanced. The difference between "viable" and tier one is extreme, that means balance is awful at the minute, not healthy like you stated.

Balance aside, the gameplay itself is utter dogshit, it's never been in a worse state.

DHs aren't represented in high rated arenas? Is that why whenever I watch someone like Cdew he faces them a decent amount of times? Is that why every well-known multi r1 is complaining about them relentlessly on Twitter?

Notice how everything that's discussed is 3v3? It's like people have gotten used to the fact that every other bracket is dogshit and don't even think of that as a point anymore about how badly designed the game is. RBGs is overrun with cheaters, 2s will always be severely unbalanced, and 5s was so bad it was removed from the game. Good PvP design when your focus is on ONE bracket and you can't even get that right.

And I don't get how the YouTuber thing is relevant. It's true and always has been. You even had people paying for SkillCapped at a point, most of the people who go on Swifty's channel and ask for "7.1.5 burst macro plzzz swifter" are kids.

Like, you're trying to bash someone because they're low rated but what they're saying is actually true. You're going off by "checking the ladder" and not actual gameplay. Anyone who knows what they're talking about has known for a long time that ladder representation isn't indicative of balance.

[Deleted]

You get what you ask for, you could've replied a little bit more neutral or polite. I actually found your video when it came out and enjoyed it Weeks ago.

I didn't talk about tier 1 though, and I do agree with almost everything you just said. But dh's were not really around in high rated arenas at the time I ment, like november-mid december? I can be wrong though. I follow Trillebartom since 2012 and most of my knowledge comes from watching him talk about DH's. And he has not been to thrilled. Sure, now in 7.1.5 they got more defensives and paralysis cc so after damage is tuned better they'll be around a lot more in 3s. Once the 7.1.5 FOTM people are gone xD

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most casual players are very happy if their spec can reach 2k rating the way. That's kind of what I mean by viable. Most specs are. That's what I ment. I didn't pull that outta my ass. Pulled that straight outta compton. I mean Legion. Ok im tired.

[Krusza]

You get what you ask for, you could've replied a little bit more neutral or polite. I actually found your video when it came out and enjoyed it Weeks ago.

I didn't talk about tier 1 though, and I do agree with almost everything you just said. But dh's were not really around in high rated arenas at the time I ment, like november-mid december? I can be wrong though. I follow Trillebartom since 2012 and most of my knowledge comes from watching him talk about DH's. And he has not been to thrilled. Sure, now in 7.1.5 they got more defensives and paralysis cc so after damage is tuned better they'll be around a lot more in 3s. Once the 7.1.5 FOTM people are gone xD

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most casual players are very happy if their spec can reach 2k rating the way. That's kind of what I mean by viable. Most specs are. That's what I ment. I didn't pull that outta my ass. Pulled that straight outta compton. I mean Legion. Ok im tired.

The reason I responded to you like that is because you were rating bashing someone even though all their points were valid. I don't like uncalled for rating bashing, that's all. Especially when it's followed by being condescending with false info. I was annoyed at something else earlier as well though, so I should of probably addressed the points in the same post.

You're pulling up statistics from November/December, that's an entirely different patch, especially since 7.1.5 was mainly a class adjustment patch, a lot of things have changed since then, so you might want to keep that in mind. It made balance drastically worse than 7.1

I know you didn't talk about tier 1, but you claimed a lot of specs being viable at 2.2 meant the game was "healthy", my point being that that's not true as the gap between viable and tier one is enormous i.e unbalanced. With ideal balance the tier gaps would be small, not enormous like they are now.

[Professor Expert]

PvP is not a niche, especially end game. It's what most people do. What are endgame niches:

- Raiding
- Rated pvp
- WoW as an "esport"

Most players will participate in elements of the game that are the most readily accessible and also fun. Casual BGs fit into the lore of the game as being the main form of PvP and that's where any pvp resources should be devoted. Balancing around 3v3 or any rated arena is idiotic and destructive overall, just like making adjustments to classes based on raid performance is flawed because it is a minuscule minority of players who participate in those things.

There is no reason that they could not include end-game content progression that includes something like a PERSISTENT battleground, meaning that you enter and do stuff, then leave when you're done playing. Later when you return the battle will have continued in your absence and things may have changed. They have tried making certain world pvp zones like halaa in the game work this way but it was always as a sideshow and never part of the main game.

More recent iterations of the game create common objectives for two warring factions, thus removing any real motivation for players of one faction to attack the other. Why? This is warcraft. They can have their kumbaya work together moments but choosing a faction should include a sense that the factions have their own agendas that conflict with each other.

For example, in suramar, horde could be cast as being there to steal the power of fel for themselves, while alliance wants to seize the power and utilize it for the benefit of its citizens. Instead of making a single "quest hub" for both factions, the faction you choose would determine how the story plays out. This set-up would create a backdrop for alliance and horde forces fighting each other as they pursue a similar goal for very different reasons.

Point is that there are many ways that pvp could be woven into the game in a fun way that doesn't have to be hyper-competitive (which is not fun for most people), and instanced BGs should continue to exist but every expac should include an entire new set of BGs in addition to the classics.

[Deleted]

For me its a mixture of incompetence and lack of interest. Some guys at blizzard definitely do not deserve their position and are allowed to be unaccountable because of networking and influence but thats a common issue in our society.

There are way more companies than we think which have bad management at the top/bad communication between teams or incompetent people heading departments. Its obvious everywhere, including in politics of course.

I don't see why video games companies would get an excuse just because they provide entertainment. Its a business nowadays, so customers are generally shitted by those board directors who don't really care at all about delivering good products as long as they get the cash flow steady.

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But as I keep saying, they know plenty about what they're doing. They're hoping the no-lifers and semi-hardcores will grind out the traits to 50+ which will keep them subbing - WITHOUT having to add any new PvP content or fix other things, which saves Blizz a ton of money. If they get fed up and quit, Blizz is banking on them going to OW or HotS. Many have already done just that and Blizz is quite aware of it.

Either way, they stand to make big bucks with a minimum of effort or overhead invested, and it doesn't matter to them if a large percentage of WoW PvP'ers are unhappy with the state of the game.

Of course they kept this under wraps until the last minute. With the modus operandi that Blizz has had for several years now, all they can do is speak in vague, non-committal terms or outright lie to keep sub numbers up. With every patch and xpac they double down ever more on the bait & switch tactics.

Does one of their devs that came from D3 - the arrogant Jay "Shut Up PvP Guy" Wilson - being able to "retire" at 42 years old, kick back and become a "writer"...sound like incompetence? Or is Acti/Blizz a $4+ billion corporation able to extract maximum profits from their paying customers while keeping them strung out endlessly on hopes that in a few months they'll fix X and Y and the game will get better?

They aren't doing this for the players; they're doing it to please their stock-holders at every quarterly report. In that sense they're no different than most other U.S. corporations today.

I'd bet real folding money that Blizz would much rather have people think they're lazy or incompetent, instead of the reality that they're as filthy greedy as anyone can get, and will do and say anything if it'll squeeze another nickle out of the game. You don't hire a lawyer (Ion H. pretending to be a dev) for his position unless you're going to double down on the spin.

Blizz knows that thinking they're lazy or incompetent is at least somewhat forgivable; people are willing to give them "another chance" to get their asses in gear and get things fixed. If OTOH you thought you were being intentionally lied to and screwed to enrich people like Mr. Wilson, while the product you formerly enjoyed is steadily wrecked for profit, you might take a more hostile opinion of the company and stop buying their products.

This is also my opinion on the matter. Blizzard is no different from EA or activision. They are not releasing games to satisfy customers, they know that no matter how recycled or poor their game is, once people buy it, the money is there and its already plenty enough to make a profit. I think that video game market will soon be bigger than the movie industry

[Mlz]

snip

I just wanted to say that it is one of the best posts I have ever read on MMO (or anywhere tbh) regarding to what has happened to WoW (and a lot of the stuff you said also applies to PvE content). Even if it gets buried, it's brilliant.

[Deleted]

After many years I am convinced, it is point 2.

They are not interested in Balance, they want to keep players playing, because they think, that making FotM Players rerolling keeps those people subbed. Ignoring the fact, that many people get the feeling, that their "main" doesn't matter and feel frustrated. Making it harder and harder for people to find others to play with. The standard death-cicle of a PvP-Game (You want to play the game, but there are no people to play it with, so you stop playing the game). They tried pruning, with in return alienated experienced PvP Veterans, who felt, that a lot of tools were taken away from them.

The whole E-Sports angle always made me laugh, because of how little effort they actually put in to balance the game. It always felt like "oh we have to have e-sports", rather than actually making the game balanced enough for people to get interested.

[meathead]

1. DH's are not represented in high rated arenas.
2. Almost every spec is viable above 2.2k rating, that means the game is healthy. Sure there are problems still. Class design being one of them.
3. Learn your spec's weaknessess and strenghts, simply learn to play.
4. Make a thread about how bad the pvp is while not being above 1700 rating.
5. Profit? xD

i have said this a millions times over - more specs in pvp does not = more/better balanced pvp, actually is means the opposite. everyone knows the game will never be 100% balanced and more specs /talents they have to try and balance around the more the fuck it up.

one of the worst seasons was S5 correct?with dks and rets. at that point the game had more specs in pvp then ever before,why? becasue of a new op'ed class with all 3 specs face roll and ret op'ed as anything.how does that make for better pvp? = it don't it made it worse. you can go right down the line and with every new class added to game = more specs is pvp = bigger mess.

BC had the best pvp this game will ever see,was it perfect?no but it was the best we had like it or not. each class had a spec geared for pvp and while there was less "specs viable" in pvp it was far far better balanced then anything after it. 2's 3's 5's only thing missing from BC is rbgs and x-mog

[Fkiolaris]

Does "incompetently focused on the bottom line" count?

[Deleted]

i have said this a millions times over - more specs in pvp does not = more/better balanced pvp, actually is means the opposite. everyone knows the game will never be 100% balanced and more specs /talents they have to try and balance around the more the fuck it up.

one of the worst seasons was S5 correct?with dks and rets. at that point the game had more specs in pvp then ever before,why? becasue of a new op'ed class with all 3 specs face roll and ret op'ed as anything.how does that make for better pvp? = it don't it made it worse. you can go right down the line and with every new class added to game = more specs is pvp = bigger mess.

BC had the best pvp this game will ever see,was it perfect?no but it was the best we had like it or not. each class had a spec geared for pvp and while there was less "specs viable" in pvp it was far far better balanced then anything after it. 2's 3's 5's only thing missing from BC is rbgs and x-mog

hahaha BC the best? Hell no

[lolpve]

The competent devs left Blizzard a long time ago. It makes more sense when you separate Blizzard who made pvp classics like WC3, SC, WoW:TBC etc, from Activision who have never produced pvp games worth a damn and who have ended up trying to copy other successful games rather than being innovators.

[meathead]

hahaha BC the best? Hell no

troll more!

yes BC was the best and its not even close!day 1 in wrath was ther worst this game has ever seen!yeah warth got a little better as it went on but it was the being of the end and over the years pvp gets worse and worse.

everything i said in this post and my last is 100% correct or do you think dks were balanced in s5?every season in BC was better then s5.

[Caolela]

So to reiterate my initial question before someone goes offtopic - does someone have some info about the current inner workings of the WoW (pvp) team? Something that could explain what's been happening lately?

One doesn't need "insider" info to determine what's been going on. It's easy enough to notice from astute observation, and there are enough posts around to explain it.

You have to start from the facts that: 1) it's a sub-based game and, 2) Activision is a large corporation. Blizz isn't some small indy house with a handful of nerds making rilly kewl games for other gaming nerds. The last vestige of that went kaput when Blizzard North closed down around the time Acti took over.

They're producing a "product" to generate maximum profit margin from. That is ALL they're interested in, no different than if they made shoes or refrigerators. To them, games are just product, and as a publicly-traded corporation on the stock market their main concern is to please their stockholders.

This is the over-arching factor that fanboys often forget or pretend doesn't exist.

Their job is to hype the product (next xpac) to generate sales (which means lie, obfuscate and make bullshit promises), then to get you to pay a sub fee for as long as possible. As a side benefit, the longer you're in the game the greater the chances that you'll also spend money in the Blizz Shop. That means increasing the grind and wasting your time in game as much as they can with everything you do, while keeping overhead expenses as low as possible. That's why we haven't seen new content for PvP, or creating new gear models/separate PvP gear, or new modes of PvP like War Campaigns, all-RNG, PvE for AP, simplified rotations (pruning), constantly shifting imbalance, stupidly skewed racials, and all the rest.

Nearly every single issue that players have with WoW can be traced back to one of these motives: extending the grind or time-in-game, lowering development time/cost, encouraging race and server hopping, and so on.

[xZerocidex]

One doesn't need "insider" info to determine what's been going on. It's easy enough to notice from astute observation, and there are enough posts around to explain it.

You have to start from the facts that: 1) it's a sub-based game and, 2) Activision is a large corporation. Blizz isn't some small indy house with a handful of nerds making rilly kewl games for other gaming nerds. The last vestige of that went kaput when Blizzard North closed down around the time Acti took over.

They're producing a "product" to generate maximum profit margin from. That is ALL they're interested in, no different than if they made shoes or refrigerators. To them, games are just product, and as a publicly-traded corporation on the stock market their main concern is to please their stockholders.

This is the over-arching factor that fanboys often forget or pretend doesn't exist.

Their job is to hype the product (next xpac) to generate sales (which means lie, obfuscate and make bullshit promises), then to get you to pay a sub fee for as long as possible. As a side benefit, the longer you're in the game the greater the chances that you'll also spend money in the Blizz Shop. That means increasing the grind and wasting your time in game as much as they can with everything you do, while keeping overhead expenses as low as possible. That's why we haven't seen new content for PvP, or creating new gear models/separate PvP gear, or new modes of PvP like War Campaigns, all-RNG, PvE for AP, simplified rotations (pruning), constantly shifting imbalance, stupidly skewed racials, and all the rest.

Nearly every single issue that players have with WoW can be traced back to one of these motives: extending the grind or time-in-game, lowering development time/cost, encouraging race and server hopping, and so on.

Careful with stating facts on here, you don't want fanboys to suggest that you should be wearing a tin foil hat.