Laziness vs Greed

[Raskayz]

Both of them are "deadly sins" according to christianity.

Then why is society so hard on real/perceived lazy people yet actively promote greed in the form of profit seeking ?
Shouldn't they be both equally reviled ?

One could actually make some good arguments regarding how laziness can be beneficial, like how it often fuels creativity and innovation to reduce efforts.
Greed is harder to defend since it's basically screwing over your peers to stuff your pockets.


It makes no sense to me, especially from religious conservatives, which are usually corporatists.
They should be the promoters of Open Source which is axed on collective work and sharing marketable concepts with everyone, yet those are mostly on the left.

[Jonnusthegreat]

It makes no sense to me, especially from conservatives, which are usually corporatists.
They should be the promoters of Open Source which is axed on collective work and sharing marketable concepts with everyone, yet those are mostly on the left.

This conservatives say and do typically don't make sense.

[Dezerte]

Being greedy is a lot more rewarding.

[Fencers]

Both of them are "deadly sins" according to christianity.

Then why is society so hard on real/perceived lazy people yet actively promote greed in the form of profit seeking ?

Religious belief is foolish. It means nothing, can often be hypocritical and has no basis in rational thought.

If your confusion stems from how a person or culture with a religious basis for belief in the certain aspects or virtues can seem to be contradictory or hypocritical it's called cognitive dissonance. It is a mechanism of human stress whereby we try to reconcile the practical or empirical reality of a thing with our belief of a that thing (either how it should be or is composed. Humans do this all the time- it's a byproduct of our mental faculty to provide organization.

[Theodarzna]

Both of them are "deadly sins" according to christianity.

Then why is society so hard on real/perceived lazy people yet actively promote greed in the form of profit seeking ?
Shouldn't they be both equally reviled ?

One could actually make some good arguments regarding how laziness can be beneficial, like how it often fuels creativity and innovation to reduce efforts.
Greed is harder to defend since it's basically screwing over your peers to stuff your pockets.


It makes no sense to me, especially from religious conservatives, which are usually corporatists.
They should be the promoters of Open Source which is axed on collective work and sharing marketable concepts with everyone, yet those are mostly on the left.

Our values are mostly not Christian in the ancient sense of the term but are derived exclusively from either Theist philosopher/political scientists or Calvinism. In fact one could say America is a mostly Calvinist inspired country. A book by Max Weber called The Protestant Ethic & The Spirit of Capitalism ect is a way of inverting the traditional view that greed is a sin, by recasting greed from a conventional definition.

Those who work hard and are prosperous are clearly in a Calvinist view blessed by God and one of the elect destined for heaven. This is different from Joel Olstein types who don't heavily theologize the "Being one of the elect," part. This view is specifically a way in which prosperity is a sign of Gods favor with you. Not because God WANTS all to prosper. You could say Olstein has a nice positive sunny version, to Calvins much darker version. In Calvinist teaching, only some of us are elect and thus going to heaven. The prosperous are seen as having bountiful blessings that show they are one of the elect. Laziness is seen as a sign of the devil, and thus a sign that one is hellbound. Being greedy in this social context would make one look prosperous superficially and thus comes with rewarded status in such a society. Being lazy is seen as demonic, and thus punished.

[chazus]

Both of them are "deadly sins" according to christianity.

Because when I think of 'things I should listen to', I think of Christianity.

Seriously though, you're debate is based in something not everyone applies to. "Laziness" and "Greed" are entirely abstract ideas. One person's entrepreneurship is another persons greed. One person's efficiency is another person's laziness. They're entirely useless statements for debate.

[Raskayz]

Because when I think of 'things I should listen to', I think of Christianity.

Seriously though, you're debate is based in something not everyone applies to. "Laziness" and "Greed" are entirely abstract ideas. One person's entrepreneurship is another persons greed. One person's efficiency is another person's laziness. They're entirely useless statements for debate.

You're slightly blurring definitions to fit that narrative

Enterpreneuship can be completely dissociated from material gain just like efficiency has nothing to do with laziness.

You can demonstrate enterpreneurship in the management of a non profit organizations that don't make a dime.
If you're efficient, you're performing better, period. Reducing the effort required to do a task is not laziness as long as the end result is the same.


Also, not saying we should listen to any religion.
Just pointing out the doublethinking of those who do but still promote contradictory ideals.

[chazus]

You're slightly blurring definitions to fit that narrative

Enterpreneuship can be completely dissociated from material gain just like efficiency has nothing to do with laziness.

No, I'm not.

When a company does something you don't like, people cry 'waaah, greedy bastards' without understanding how business works. It's not a free ride to money. That isn't to say there aren't some truly vile practices done by people and companies, but it's the same. People are more likely to blame greed, rather than business ignorance.

As far as "Laziness"... what does that even mean? People label severe anxiety as 'lazy' because someone can't get their shit together to go outside. I stopped going to college because of it. Was I lazy? granted, I got myself together after a few years and finished things up, but the terms are so stupidly broad, that things like "greed" and "laziness" just sound like excuses for someone to complain.

[Independent voter]

Being lazy is a burden to others, say you're lazy and don't work, your wife and kids could suffer. Or maybe you won't get a job and move out of your mother's basement.

[Raskayz]

No, I'm not.

When a company does something you don't like, people cry 'waaah, greedy bastards' without understanding how business works. It's not a free ride to money. That isn't to say there aren't some truly vile practices done by people and companies, but it's the same. People are more likely to blame greed, rather than business ignorance.

As far as "Laziness"... what does that even mean? People label severe anxiety as 'lazy' because someone can't get their shit together to go outside. I stopped going to college because of it. Was I lazy? granted, I got myself together after a few years and finished things up, but the terms are so stupidly broad, that things like "greed" and "laziness" just sound like excuses for someone to complain.

Your entire reasoning is based on the perceptions of these concepts by group x or y.
Lets just take them from an objective standpoint.

If we take the wiki defnition, Greed is "an inordinate or insatiable longing, especially for wealth, status, and power."

So when you goal is to maximize profits to increase the amount of goods in your possession instead of strictly running your business with its operation costs, you're greedy. Your degree of greediness on that spectrum then depends how far you are from these operation costs.

Now i'm not saying corps should solely run on operation and R&D costs, but when you drift from the "normal" amount of wealth needed to live a good life (which is up to debate) you are greedy.

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Being lazy is a burden to others, say you're lazy and don't work, your wife and kids could suffer.

Why can't your wife work ?
Also, I think greed is at least as detrimental as laziness is when we go to extremes since unlike the latter, greed always applies in relation to others

[Nadiru]

Profit seeking isn't inherently greed. Christianity more or less defines greed as a rejection of God to pursue material wealth, the Biblical example being money-changers at the temple.

[chazus]

If we take the wiki defnition, Greed is "an inordinate or insatiable longing, especially for wealth, status, and power."

So when you goal is to maximize profits to increase the amount of goods in your possession instead of strictly running your business with its operation costs, you're greedy. Your degree of greediness on that spectrum then depends how far you are from these operation costs.

Again. Business ignorance. Businesses cannot run on minimum costs. They need profit to grow. You want new R&D? You need to grow. R&D doesn't have a 'minimum cost'. Improvement doesn't have minimum cost. The fact that you're posting on the internet right now, is a product of companies making enough profit to expand their influence and services to larger areas and products.

By definition, everyone is greedy. I make twice what I need to survive. Am I greedy? Or just a normal person?

(EDIT: By christianity's terms, normal people are sinful, so, yeah. I guess. Another reason to disregard the idea of 'sins'.)

My point being, the definition is dumb, and it's part of why we ignore silly things like that. You can't be 'objective' for things like those terms.

You're basically saying "Lets use a fundamentally flawed idea and apply it to real life"

[Theodarzna]

I think the difference between greed and plain wanting resources, is that Greed tends to be indifferent to the harm of others in getting the profit.

So destroying the environment for monetary gain. Or growing the prison population for profit. Are both, in my mind "Greed" driven.

Wanting to be successful and "rich" in and of itself is not "Greed".

Greed could be understood or distilled down to forsaking all for wealth and power.

[Raskayz]

Again. Business ignorance. Businesses cannot run on minimum costs. They need profit to grow. You want new R&D? You need to grow. R&D doesn't have a 'minimum cost'. Improvement doesn't have minimum cost. The fact that you're posting on the internet right now, is a product of companies making enough profit to expand their influence and services to larger areas and products.

That's funny because the internet is a prime example of state funded research that latter got monetized by businesses.
HTTP protocol also is the open source tech that allows us to post right now.
So what you're saying is simply not true, and the internet would actually be better (or at least free) if it wasn't for companies.

I'm also making a difference between profits going to individuals and profits mainly used to develop the company. The latter is not greed.

And businesses being absolutely necessary to create innovation is blatantly false. That is one of the many lies they keep pushing to justify a greed driven behavior.

Your definition of real life seems to be "what my beliefs are".

[May90]

I think there is a difference between profit seeking by means of hard work, and by... other means. Someone like Bill Gates is hardly lazy or greedy, he has worked hard for decades, pushing forward the most innovative ideas, almost unthinkable at the time, to be able to have amassed so much money. Now, Bill Gates is not a Christian, AFAIK, but if he was, I wouldn't say his wealth would contradict its teachings. His money is merely a means for him to accomplish things that, ultimately, benefit humanity a lot.

On the other hand, there are people who really don't do much. They may have inherited their money from their family, or won it in a lottery, or got themselves involved in some corruption scheme - and, after that, rather than spending the money to create something, or to help someone in need, they just keep lazily looking for ways to enlarge their riches, while partying endlessly. I think this kind of greed and laziness is what Christianity really is against.

[Theodarzna]

Again. Business ignorance. Businesses cannot run on minimum costs. They need profit to grow. You want new R&D? You need to grow. R&D doesn't have a 'minimum cost'. Improvement doesn't have minimum cost. The fact that you're posting on the internet right now, is a product of companies making enough profit to expand their influence and services to larger areas and products.

Okay, but what would you be willing to do to gain that?

[Nadiru]

I think the difference between greed and plain wanting resources, is that Greed tends to be indifferent to the harm of others in getting the profit.

So destroying the environment for monetary gain. Or growing the prison population for profit. Are both, in my mind "Greed" driven.

Wanting to be successful and "rich" in and of itself is not "Greed".

A lot of people would tell you that that's wrong, that Christ was basically a communist in disguise.

[Afrospinach]

Now i'm not saying corps should solely run on operation and R&D costs, but when you drift from the "normal" amount of wealth needed to live a good life (which is up to debate) you are greedy.

Oh please. Let me guess, you decide what people need to have a good life?

I think Chazus already /threaded the thread.

One person's entrepreneurship is another persons greed.

[Theodarzna]

Well, I am fine with communism (the Marxist version, not Lenin), but I am a libertarian socialist.

My main point was that Elon Musk(or the idealistic version of him) stands to help society with their wealth. Wealth accumulation can be a net good if it is used to build up society.

But then again I am not Christian. Philosophically I am Buddhist/Taoist. Gautama was a prince, Jesus was a son of a carpenter. They have different perspectives on wealth and power.

Elon Musk would fit the medieval definition well, or would not fall into the medieval definition of greed. He for the most part exemplifies Nobless Oblige and in general seems to have not "Forsaken all for the sake of avarice."

At least as far as I know Elon Musk hasn't committed some grave sins to gain his wealth.

[Raskayz]

Oh please. Let me guess, you decide what people need to have a good life?

I think Chazus already /threaded the thread.

Do you want me to explain to you what "debate" mean ? Or were you just interested in making a strawman to avoid providing arguments ?