Havoc M+ Build!

[Faenlyn]

I hope this is a typo. The Demonic Build is very, very bad without Demonic Appetite.

Where do you get this from? I dont think its based on calculations or logs. When I sim ST 2220333 I get 5k less DPS than 3320333. 444k DPS to 439k DPS. That is 1.1% decreased. if you play better not having to worry about demon bite and not having to worry about picking up fragments you will probably more than make up that 1% difference in actual play. I played both and I can tell you it plays much better not having to worry about demon bite. Just spam annihilation. Its amazing

[kaelleria]

Where do you get this from? I dont think its based on calculations or logs. When I sim ST 2220333 I get 5k less DPS than 3320333. 444k DPS to 439k DPS. That is 1.1% decreased. if you play better not having to worry about demon bite and not having to worry about picking up fragments you will probably more than make up that 1% difference in actual play. I played both and I can tell you it plays much better not having to worry about demon bite. Just spam annihilation. Its amazing

You don't play demonic for ST dps, you play it for aoe situations. Simming only really shows you the single target picture.

[Faenlyn]

You don't play demonic for ST dps, you play it for aoe situations. Simming only really shows you the single target picture.

The reason I didnt mention AOE is because you would be really hard pressed to come up with a Havoc spec that did poorly in aoe. By its nature as a class, we do great AOE DPS. 222x333 is no different. Its within 2% of 332x333 in AOE. And both those numbers are high. You will notice no real difference in mythics+ from a 2% aoe difference. one is not trash compared to the other.
Where you could fail in designing a spec is making it trash in ST because even M+ you will still have priority targets and you will still have ST bosses. The point I was making was in ST 222x333 does not fail. Its within 1% of 332x333 which makes it a viable alternative. I assumed it was understood it would already be viable aoe spec

The one point one can make about the spec is without DA you're not spawning soul fragments to reduce the CD on eyebeam for the next pack and therefore over the course of a dungeon your meta uptime will be lower. 332x333 will bring up EB sooner than 222x333. Not enough to matter on any one boss/trash pack. The fights are too short for 332x to gain an extra EB from soul fragments in the same fight. But perhaps EB will up for the next pack with 332x but not with 222x. Over the course of a run you will have slightly higher uptime on Meta. You have to play both specs to get a feel for whether thats significant because even in 222x333 I found EB almost always available when needed

[Deleted]

Not enough to matter on any one boss/trash pack. The fights are too short for 332x to gain an extra EB from soul fragments in the same fight. But perhaps EB will up for the next pack with 332x but not with 222x.

That is exactly where it comes in to play. Remember, the more uptime on Meta, the more damage you'll do throughout the dungeon, as you'll mostly be doing EB & Death Sweep. But also, another thing to take into account, is that it is currently Teeming, Skittish and Fortified in EU, and if you get aggro with the demonic build, you are more likely to live, as you can selfheal a good amount with soul rending. Oh yea, another thing you should remember, is that you got an Artifact Trait called "Overwhelming Power", which gives your Chaos Nova 30% chance to generate a Soul Fragment when it stuns. So instead of going Demon Reborn, you should consider using Unleashed Power, as it reduces the CD on Chaos Nova and removes the Fury cost.

But tbh, this spec becomes insanely better in m+, if you have the legendary head peice.

[Faenlyn]

That is exactly where it comes in to play. Remember, the more uptime on Meta, the more damage you'll do throughout the dungeon, as you'll mostly be doing EB & Death Sweep. But also, another thing to take into account, is that it is currently Teeming, Skittish and Fortified in EU, and if you get aggro with the demonic build, you are more likely to live, as you can selfheal a good amount with soul rending. Oh yea, another thing you should remember, is that you got an Artifact Trait called "Overwhelming Power", which gives your Chaos Nova 30% chance to generate a Soul Fragment when it stuns. So instead of going Demon Reborn, you should consider using Unleashed Power, as it reduces the CD on Chaos Nova and removes the Fury cost.

But tbh, this spec becomes insanely better in m+, if you have the legendary head peice.

Absolutely. I did not want to mention it and attract more flame/misunderstanding but in order to get EB up for the next pack I prefer running 222 with Unleashed Power. Demon Reborn only benefits me every 4 mins when Meta is up as a CD but Unleashed power allows me to get a large amount of fragments with Chaos Nova. Often enough to reset EB up for the next pack and its what allows 222x to compete with 332x for EB Availability. It doesnt matter as much if 332x has eyebeam available 3 secs faster as long as they both have it available for the next pack

UP equals the 2 packs for trash pulls and the run overall much more than you would think. The only problem with UP is for those moments especially boss fights when you would be using Meta. The EB to Demonic, Meta, Reset EB to Demonic stretch for those moments is absolutely wonderful. Almost enough to want me to play with DB. Almost

And for full disclosure after playing multiple runs with 222x333, 332x333, 222x323 and 222x323 I prefer 222x323 but at the end of the day I play 222x321 because the AOE DPS is similar but the ST DPS is often double. For me Demonic is consistently 400-600k ST DPS on bosses but CB spikes to 900k-1M DPS and you dont need all the demonic self healing if what you are trying to kill is already dead.

And thank you for mention UP again. Everyone runs 222x311 when they admittedly only using TG as a filler. So you're going to waste a talent choice in order to give you 2 stacks of your filler ability? And the justification is for that row playing 222x3x1 what you pick doesnt matter for your DPS much so you might as well go with Master of the Glaive. That has never made sense to me. TG is absolutely a filler in that build and one thats not used often because you will be using FR preferably for all the aoe packs and even on ST since you can usually Felblade right back in from a FR. Use that talent choice for something useful which would be Unleashed Power. Even (Especially) for a CB build Unleashed Power is very useful as it gives you more CN to control packs in M+ and gives you fragments to reset EB for the next pull. If also provides a good amount of emergency healing if you get in trouble with all the fragments it spawns.

So to get back to the OP question of whats a good Havoc M+ build. After multiple experiments with different builds for ST, AOE and utility I highly recommend

2221321. It will destroy Demonic builds in ST, do similar AOE, gives you utility with Chaos Nova stuns available for every pull and Netherwalk for oh shit moments

[Littlepwny]

Where do you get this from? I dont think its based on calculations or logs. When I sim ST 2220333 I get 5k less DPS than 3320333. 444k DPS to 439k DPS. That is 1.1% decreased.

First of all, the guy I quoted listed a completely different build (3220333) that is absolutely worthless compared to what I refer to the Demonic build (3320333); his blind fury talent might as well not exist without the CD reduction via demonic appetite souls.



As you can see in the above image, taking Blind Fury without Demonic Appetite completely guts your damage which is exactly what I stated.

Now, in regards to 2220333, it is as you stated relatively close to the conventional Demonic build (~2.5% for my gearset) but it performs worse in both single target and in AoE. Also, don't forget that DA souls also reduce cooldown of chaos nova, something extremely important for M+ trash.

And no thank you, if I am going to go with Demon Blades, I will be going with Chaos Blades rather than a talent that instantly drops my damage by 9%.

[Faenlyn]

First of all, the guy I quoted listed a completely different build (3220333) that is absolutely worthless; his blind fury talent might as well not exist without the CD reduction via demonic appetite souls.



As you can see in the above image, taking Blind Fury without Demonic Appetite completely guts your damage which is exactly what I stated.

Now, in regards to 2220333, it is as you stated relatively close to the conventional Demonic build (~2.5% for my gearset) but it performs worse in both single target and in AoE; bonus poits for having .

And no thank you, if I am going to go with Demon Blades, I will be going with Chaos Blades rather than a talent that instantly drops my damage by 9%.

I agree with you then. I didnt see you referring that earlier build though and my point was just that dropping DA in a Demonic build was posssible. 2220333 is close enough to 3320333 (Fore me it sims even closer than for you, 1%) so that even tho it is worse, sacrificing pain in the ass Demons Bite is worth it. I did then state that as long as you're doing that you should be going CB anyway so in the end we agree on all points

[Deleted]

as for Demonic build for m+,
Isn't it crazy to use on skittish week? It seems you're gonna be the tank.

As for momentum/nemesis, I saw everyone picks nemesis for demonic build, doesn't momentum makes more sense? Ok, so I'm gonna use Eye beam...fel rush (momentum activate), eye beam (+20 % damage for 3 seconds). Now I'm on meta for 8 seconds, fel rush again, more damage again, and so on.

is there a reason to pick nemesis instead of momentum?

[Raiju]

It's easier is reason people pick it, but yes momentum pairs very well since truthfully you're mostly relying on eye beam / death sweep anyway.

[Littlepwny]

is there a reason to pick nemesis instead of momentum?

Not really. People just pick Nemesis because they are lazy.

I personally go for Momentum only when playing at higher level M+ dungeons (10++) while the extra damage offered is irrelevant at lower levels.