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  1. #101
    Only the average of soul effigy MG AC is higher than SC. The average diff is 3% between effigy and SC, but SC can go higher because RNG. Play what you like. I'll go with a build Pip simmed that got me curious: MG AC SH SE.
    Thanks for the heads up!

  2. #102
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    There is no reduced chance. There is no bug that happened with 7.1.5. There are a lot of people that are just finding out that SE never acted like another mob because they're ignorant, and pretending like it's new information that warlocks didn't know about. Effigy has always generated a shard approximately 1 every 11 ticks on it, as long as Legion has been live, unlike a normal mob which is about 1 every 6.5 ticks.
    aFaik you're wrong; 7.1.5 Soul Effigy had an even lower chance to proc a shard than the lower chanc eit had always had. The reduced chance has been known for a long time, but 7.1.5 live reduced this even further. I don;t know if it was the same in 7.1.5 ptr, but I suspect that experienced testers would have picked it up and highlighted it weeks and weeks ago.

    You should also be aware that Agony shard procs are based on a formula which reduces the proc rate depending on how many Agonies are running. So if you put upAgony on four you do not get four times as many. However, Soul Effigy's chance was reduced below this "normal" chance, soif you had one target and Effigy, you got less shards than you would with two "normal" targets and this fell even further in 7.1.5 live

    That has now changed, so Effigy procs shards in a "normal" rate, which is determined by how many Agonies you have running. In practical terms this means more shards when you use Effigy post-hotfix, particularly on single target fights.

    Hence the patch noted which state that Effigy nopw has "100% of the normal chance"
    Last edited by mmoc7a6bdbfc72; 2017-01-15 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckz0rs View Post
    Next time you find out something like that months before anyone knows, mind sharing that information with everyone? It's pretty easy to claim you knew something AFTER said information was released.
    Ive posted about it for a pong time on the official warlock forums. Im not claiming to have known anythingi cant prove.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    aFaik you're wrong; 7.1.5 Soul Effigy had an even lower chance to proc a shard than the lower chanc eit had always had. The reduced chance has been known for a long time, but 7.1.5 live reduced this even further. I don;t know if it was the same in 7.1.5 ptr, but I suspect that experienced testers would have picked it up and highlighted it weeks and weeks ago.

    You should also be aware that Agony shard procs are based on a formula which reduces the proc rate depending on how many Agonies are running. So if you put upAgony on four you do not get four times as many. However, Soul Effigy's chance was reduced below this "normal" chance, soif you had one target and Effigy, you got less shards than you would with two "normal" targets and this fell even further in 7.1.5 live

    That has now changed, so Effigy procs shards in a "normal" rate, which is determined by how many Agonies you have running. In practical terms this means more shards when you use Effigy post-hotfix, particularly on single target fights.

    Hence the patch noted which state that Effigy nopw has "100% of the normal chance"
    Yes i know how the math works but afaik patch isnt live. Mg is still 80% so effigy should not be changed yet. When effigy is treated oike a normal tsrget though it will provide shards about 9% faster than conduit though, in addition to the damage, at the cost of 4 globals a minute.

  4. #104
    Does it really matter if it's a bug fix or a patch or whatever?

    SE gave some shards, it's going to give more shards next lockout.

  5. #105
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    Ive posted about it for a pong time on the official warlock forums. Im not claiming to have known anythingi cant prove.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes i know how the math works but afaik patch isnt live. Mg is still 80% so effigy should not be changed yet. When effigy is treated oike a normal tsrget though it will provide shards about 9% faster than conduit though, in addition to the damage, at the cost of 4 globals a minute.
    Indeed, the "fix" isn't live yet, when it is, Soul Effigy will be considerably improved as a shard generator, because it will actuall yhave a higher chance than in every pre-7.1.5 use

    I suspect that it is actually to make a Writhe+Effigy combo more competetive with Grasp. As you say Effigy costs globals, which takes time off drain, so Conduit and Effigy are closer than they look, although, of course, Effigy will return 35% Agony damage as well.

    Moreover, Effigy will be very friendly to movement, since you can slap dots on it whilst compelled to move and Agony will proc shardsd, whereas Conduit only has a chance to refund shards, which means you're standing still and spending one with UA.

    I'd guess that probably Effigy will have the edge for these reasons, but Conduit will be perfectly ok to use. Also, Writhe becomes a more attractive alternate to Grasp, particualrly for fights where you're moving a lot.

    As I said, it is either a massive coincidence or the reduced proc rate for Effigy was actually intentional.

    Afflcition actually has a lot of choice and can be adapted to demand quite easily. Far less restrictive than destro and demo imho. The sims are pretyt bad for demo, which is where it should shine. If demo can't be topping in a Patchwerk sim...it's gonna really suffer in a raid environment. This is of course why melee sim higher as movement hurts them more, on the whole.
    Last edited by mmoc7a6bdbfc72; 2017-01-15 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    Indeed, the "fix" isn't live yet, when it is, Soul Effigy will be considerably improved as a shard generator, because it will actuall yhave a higher chance than in every pre-7.1.5 use

    I suspect that it is actually to make a Writhe+Effigy combo more competetive with Grasp. As you say Effigy costs globals, which takes time off drain, so Conduit and Effigy are closer than they look, although, of course, Effigy will return 35% Agony damage as well.

    Moreover, Effigy will be very friendly to movement, since you can slap dots on it whilst compelled to move and Agony will proc shardsd, whereas Conduit only has a chance to refund shards, which means you're standing still and spending one with UA.

    I'd guess that probably Effigy will have the edge for these reasons, but Conduit will be perfectly ok to use. Also, Writhe becomes a more attractive alternate to Grasp, particualrly for fights where you're moving a lot.

    As I said, it is either a massive coincidence or the reduced proc rate for Effigy was actually intentional.

    Afflcition actually has a lot of choice and can be adapted to demand quite easily. Far less restrictive than destro and demo imho. The sims are pretyt bad for demo, which is where it should shine. If demo can't be topping in a Patchwerk sim...it's gonna really suffer in a raid environment. This is of course why melee sim higher as movement hurts them more, on the whole.
    I just did some more testing. It takes close to 11 agony ticks on an effigy per shard it generates. It's no different than when i tested it months ago. Whether or not this is a bug from launch, or intended, i have no idea, but it is consistent with my experience since the beginning.

    With the change we should get a shard every 4.6 ticks in ST situations, over the 5 from SC. It is a clear shard winner. THe issue is how does the damage compare, which I can't answer.

    I pretty much agree with all oyu're saying though, and it will be interesting to see what happens with WiA. I was doing some 2 target/effigy testing in order hall and was pulling 700k without any buffs, so by increasing our shard gen by about 30% over current effigy, wia could come relatively close, to MG, but we shall see.

    This should help our cleave damage go up quiet a bit though, especially in tier gear. I can actually see us becoming shard capped often and requiring AC to free up globals for UA casts as a damage increase, which is a very interesting thought. They may have to cave and realize the duration's of our dots are too short.

  7. #107
    loving the fact that in PvP, Demo Drain Life heals for a substantially larger amount than Aff Drain Soul.

    Good times.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    loving the fact that in PvP, Demo Drain Life heals for a substantially larger amount than Aff Drain Soul.
    Necessary balance. Demo channeling Drain Life isn't doing anything useful. Afflic channeling Drain Soul is murdering the shit out of people by rolling four or five UA with Rot & Decay and stacking up Essence Drain for defense.

    So far I have no serious PvP complaints from actual play.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Necessary balance. Demo channeling Drain Life isn't doing anything useful. Afflic channeling Drain Soul is murdering the shit out of people by rolling four or five UA with Rot & Decay and stacking up Essence Drain for defense.

    So far I have no serious PvP complaints from actual play.
    The damage isnt the issue, its the fact that Aff survivability was gutted. Cant even drain through a few DoTs or a single bleed.

    "Doubling Down" on steengths, my ass.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    The damage isnt the issue, its the fact that Aff survivability was gutted. Cant even drain through a few DoTs or a single bleed.
    Well yes, on the one hand, Drain Soul heals for less and Essence Drain is half as strong so your overall durability is way down. But on the other hand, the combo of Malefic Grasp and Death's Embrace means your damage is way way up.

    So no, you're not going to sit there channeling for half a minute while the other guy beats on you harmlessly and your DoTs slowly wear them down. Instead it's more of a traditional race where you're trying to kill them before they kill you. Which, honestly, is probably better for the game.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Well yes, on the one hand, Drain Soul heals for less and Essence Drain is half as strong so your overall durability is way down. But on the other hand, the combo of Malefic Grasp and Death's Embrace means your damage is way way up.

    So no, you're not going to sit there channeling for half a minute while the other guy beats on you harmlessly and your DoTs slowly wear them down. Instead it's more of a traditional race where you're trying to kill them before they kill you. Which, honestly, is probably better for the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terryn View Post
    Judging by the logs I've got for PTR to live Drain, Drain Soul is almost a carbon copy of drain life in damage and healing.


    DISCLAIMER: THESE LOGS WERE NOT DONE BY THE SAME PERSON, BUT WAS DONE WITH APPROXIMATELY SIMILAR GEAR. HOWEVER: The numbers are close enough that we can basically assume nothing is changing
    Live Healing
    PTR Healing

    Live Damage
    PTR Damage
    From shit in my guide thread. Aff survivability is literally the same from 710 to 715.


    EDIT: May have read this out of topic, I don't do much with PVP so pretty much not able to comment on this with any realm of knowledge.
    Last edited by Terryn; 2017-01-16 at 02:36 AM.
    Don't be like haunt guy.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Well yes, on the one hand, Drain Soul heals for less and Essence Drain is half as strong so your overall durability is way down. But on the other hand, the combo of Malefic Grasp and Death's Embrace means your damage is way way up.

    So no, you're not going to sit there channeling for half a minute while the other guy beats on you harmlessly and your DoTs slowly wear them down. Instead it's more of a traditional race where you're trying to kill them before they kill you. Which, honestly, is probably better for the game.


    Not really.

    Instead you're sitting in the 2-3rd stun a mongo melee is able to vomit at you and dying in a few remaining seconds to their retarded frontloaded damage if it's a DK or fists of fury from monk.

    They keep nerfing interrupt immunities and survivability on lock while frost DK's and monks continue to infest battlegrounds.

    Melee are sitting on 2+ stuns they can use to wait out your unending resolve and save their interrupt for when the stuns wear off alongside your unending resolve.

    And that's assuming the monk simply doesn't Paralysis you through Unending Resolve and then proceed to pound you senseless without letting you get much of a cast off and whatever you manage to get through they've deflected with touch of karma for 50% of their health back to them.

    As DK it's simpler as they can simply AMS whatever you through at them after their stun wears off and if you do happen to put a dent they can pop IBF and with the frost artifact trait 2-3 death strikes give them a full health bar.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-01-16 at 02:41 AM.

  13. #113
    I'd say those are issues with specific specs (WW Monk and Frost DK) being OP, and in the DK's case their improved AMS also being a perfect Afflic counter, rather than Afflic itself being flawed.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    I'd say those are issues with specific specs (WW Monk and Frost DK) being OP, and in the DK's case their improved AMS also being a perfect Afflic counter, rather than Afflic itself being flawed.
    Swap that for ret and it's the same, yearlong stun, ridiculous burst, and 2 immunity shields, one of which triggers passively. Demonhunter gets high meta uptime and with darkness 100% dodge and 2 stuns on top of a ranged interrupt, the only melee that doesn't shit all over warlock is feral druid.

    The nerfs to drain essence were completely unnecessary. It was the only talent you'd take against melee trains and now they've made sure every single warlock runs nether ward instead as the other options have been nerfed to uselessness.

    It's utterly ironic how mages have far better tools to mitigate melee compared to a warlock. Warlocks die faster to melee trains.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-01-16 at 03:37 AM.

  15. #115
    While I was in my girlfriend's home playing Hearthstone and watching twitch/streams, I never encountered a warlock x2 arena.

    Even for pros it's either x3 or go home, warlock SUCKS DICKS on x2 because without someone to keep you alive, it's gg.

    Tanky caster my A$$.
    Thanks for the heads up!

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Swap that for ret and it's the same, yearlong stun, ridiculous burst, and 2 immunity shields, one of which triggers passively. Demonhunter gets high meta uptime and with darkness 100% dodge and 2 stuns on top of a ranged interrupt, the only melee that doesn't shit all over warlock is feral druid.
    Yes, Ret and Havoc sure are the other two popular PvP melee specs. Seeing an Arms Warrior or Enhance Shaman or Feral Druid is a rarity. Though you overstate things a bit, since Darkness is only a 20% dodge not 100%.

    Am I happy about the melee dominance of PvP? No, but we're supposed to get more PvP balance tweaks in the next week or two, so let's see if the FotM specs get a haircut. Is it nearly as bad as, say, Warrior dominance in early Mists PvP? Not even close, that was so bad I quit PvP entirely for the expansion, and this is just challenging.

  17. #117
    2v2 Is about burst and CC, both things which warlock don't excel at and especially in arenas if you were to play destro for burst it's a shit spec because it can't chase at all so all the opponent needs to do is stay near a pillar.

    Reason affliction is the dominant spec is because it's the only spec that fills a niche that's viable in arenas. It does damage even when targets outrun your slow warlock ass and hump pillars, and it does spread pressure similarly well to a shadow priest but is more survivable (and has less burst in exchange).

    It's also the spec that hurts the least against the melee CC train.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Yes, Ret and Havoc sure are the other two popular PvP melee specs. Seeing an Arms Warrior or Enhance Shaman or Feral Druid is a rarity. Though you overstate things a bit, since Darkness is only a 20% dodge not 100%.

    Am I happy about the melee dominance of PvP? No, but we're supposed to get more PvP balance tweaks in the next week or two, so let's see if the FotM specs get a haircut. Is it nearly as bad as, say, Warrior dominance in early Mists PvP? Not even close, that was so bad I quit PvP entirely for the expansion, and this is just challenging.


    The pvp talent bumps darkness to 70%, you're right. Not 100%. Cover of Darkness adds 50% extra to the base 20%.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-01-16 at 05:11 AM.

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Guys where.. is... my... SOULSWAP?

    Just started to level my Warlock again after some time apart. I tried affliction and I have searched all over her for this spell. Where is it?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingpinwlock View Post
    Guys where.. is... my... SOULSWAP?

    Just started to level my Warlock again after some time apart. I tried affliction and I have searched all over her for this spell. Where is it?
    They even took out the honor talent version.
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2017-01-16 at 07:48 AM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Terryn View Post
    From shit in my guide thread. Aff survivability is literally the same from 710 to 715.


    EDIT: May have read this out of topic, I don't do much with PVP so pretty much not able to comment on this with any realm of knowledge.
    Ehh...

    No.

    I checked (and wrote down) my numbers on monday before the patch, and tuesday after the patch.

    It went from healing ~165k, to healing for ~125k.

    Thats a pretty hefty dick-kick of a nerf.

    Probably because Secrets of the Necrolyte was deleted.

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