Nighthold difficulty

[RestoChango]

54 is not hard to get.... if you were casual and had 35 traits when you got 25 AK you would have to do something like 4 M+ a day and you would hit 54 around week 3 of NH.. (or when most non WF guilds will most likely be hitting Mythic Guldan).

at 25AK you get 250k for 7-9's.... doing 4 a day=60-90 minutes=1 Million AP a day..

The difference between 35 and 54 is like 50 Million. Daily AP from quests ect+4 M+ a day=1.5 Million a day. means you can go 35-54 in 30 days playing the game for 2 hours a day.

The guy you were quoting was saying that grinding AP to 54 that quickly was unhealthy gameplay and you replied by saying that it's easy to get to 54 with a "casual" 14 hours of grinding AP a week for a month on top of raid time.

I don't have a problem with the Artifact weapon being what it is and rewarding people who grind it out but people with jobs/study/lives can't really be expected to get to 54 that quickly.

The reality is if you aren't bleeding edge you don't actually need 54 traits if your raiders are skilled enough and by the time you hit Mythic Krosus/Elisande/Gul'dan in a couple of months your Artifact weapon will be up there.

[Fynzie]

first 5 boss will be free no matter what gear you wear, it's just up to you to not stand in shit.

[Deleted]

Guldan is the new archimonde on steroids. Many guilds will stack on him and plenty of guilds will start mythics without having kille him. Exactly like what happened in hellfire.

Normal is tuned around 35 traits and hc maybe 3-4 traits above. But guldan might need full traits and certain legendaries for hc only guilds.

Normal is never tuned for 35 traits. Heroic will be

[Deleted]

If mythic is tuned for 54- it will be so undertuned, everyone has one even two specs on 54.

What? How is that even relevant? You do know that putting points in your offspec doesn't increase the potency of your main spec beyond 54 traits, right?

It will, and should, be balanced around 54 traits.

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You should skip normal. Firsts 9 bosses on heroic should be pretty ez for any 7/7M 2/3M guild imo.

No, you definitely should not. If Normal Nighthold is easy, then it's all for the better. It still drops decent ilvl loot, without accounting for RNG ilvl upgrades, and will ensure you enter Heroic progress with, possibly, a new trinket and perhaps already a tier bonus.
Convergence of Fates is that good.

[Deleted]

I think its unhealthy for a game to get you grind for 30 days or w/e just to be relevant. Someone mentioned fps games difficulty but i dont see those games asking you to farm for a month to even have a chance at completing them, if you are skilled enough you can start right off on the hardest difficulty and with experience and determination you will eventually complete them.

I can understand if in the next raid 1 or 2 bosses are dps check out of 10 but progression should mainly be about learning a boss rather than racing it. Archimonde was killed by method without legendary ring, that is testament of how well the boss was tuned for bleeding edge guilds and for normal mythic guilds aswell.

[Deleted]

I think its unhealthy for a game to get you grind for 30 days or w/e just to be relevant. Someone mentioned fps games difficulty but i dont see those games asking you to farm for a month to even have a chance at completing them, if you are skilled enough you can start right off on the hardest difficulty and with experience and determination you will eventually complete them.

I can understand if in the next raid 1 or 2 bosses are dps check out of 10 but progression should mainly be about learning a boss rather than racing it. Archimonde was killed by method without legendary ring, that is testament of how well the boss was tuned for bleeding edge guilds and for normal mythic guilds aswell.

just that archimonde wasnt well tuned from the start it was tuned during progression

[Orwell7]

It will, and should, be balanced around 54 traits.

Of course it will.

Titanforged cap will be 925, with 3x925 relics our artifacts will be at ilvl 945, and with legs at 940 we should expect an average ilvl of 920 to defeat the endbosses - the same as Helya Mythic where ~890 was expected.

I bet, in ~3 months we get 7.2, which introduces a few things that will make the Nighthold raid a lot easier. Maybe new gems, double-trait relics, more traits, who knows?

[Deleted]

What? How is that even relevant? You do know that putting points in your offspec doesn't increase the potency of your main spec beyond 54 traits, right?.

How it doesnt matter? Most specs dont do the same. Take warlock, use destro for cleave, use demo for ST, if you only have destro your ST will be weaker. People forget so fast that changing specs on certain bosses is a thing if the drawback is minimal (If you have destro at 54 demo at 34, of course you will do more dmg on destro, but having both on 54 gives you choices).

[Adramelch]

I bet, in ~3 months we get 7.2, which introduces a few things that will make the Nighthold raid a lot easier. Maybe new gems, double-trait relics, more traits, who knows?

That's a really good point. People talk about how there's nothing that will eventually nerf the raid (like rings, or ilvl upgrades on Archi), but 7.2 comes before ToS (so NH is still relevant) and brings a lot of goodies with it.

[DakonBlackblade]

With most of the major raid testing all the way back in Beta, and only some minor testing in the 7.1.5 PTR, it's really hard to have any clue how the tuning is going to be for Nighthold at the moment... Things have changed so much since most of the fights were tested in terms of class tuning and mechanics.

Obviously we can guess from the mechanics which fights are more complicated, but the actual tuning is a bit of a mystery right now.

Thats not true, heroic Guldan was tested with gear scaling to 878 ilevel and artifacts locked at 34 traits (Im not sure about the artifact part). Its pretty safe to assume that anybody clearing mythics on EN and/or ToV will heavily overgear normal NH and overgear heroic by a decent margin. Thats how it should be, ppl doing mythics should eb able to move straight into mythics, altough with tier sets on the table ppl will want to run normal and heroic anyway.

Of course it will.

Titanforged cap will be 925, with 3x925 relics our artifacts will be at ilvl 945, and with legs at 940 we should expect an average ilvl of 920 to defeat the endbosses - the same as Helya Mythic where ~890 was expected.

I bet, in ~3 months we get 7.2, which introduces a few things that will make the Nighthold raid a lot easier. Maybe new gems, double-trait relics, more traits, who knows?

End bosses are not tuned for ppl at super maximum insane titanforged ilevel + all traits, Helya was because Blizzard got fed up with ppl crying about Xavius being too easy and wanted to make sure ToV was gonna last long enough even with only 3 bosses so they overtuned the place beyond sanity. If they do proper tuning this time around Guldan will be tuned to around 910-915 ilevel and maybe 54 traits, like proper raids have always done, wich gives ppl some room to grow even on the last boss and don't make the fight feels like an impassible wall of frustration because of the numbers game.

[Adramelch]

Thats not true,

What part of his post was "not true"? Nothing you say contradicts anything he says, it seems to me.

[DakonBlackblade]

What part of his post was "not true"? Nothing you say contradicts anything he says, it seems to me.

"it's really hard to have any clue how the tuning is going to be for Nighthold at the moment" . We pretty much know how normal and heroic tunning is going to be, we have the scaling of the tests for normal Elisande and Heroic Guldan, only mythic is a mystery, when mythic was tested things were so unfinished Skorpyron had 1 billion health and took 6 minutes to die, imagine a mythic boss with 1 bil Hp on this day and age, the thing would die in less than 2 minutes.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

ToV was already tuned to have 35traits. Mythic Nighthold gonna be pain in the ass for most casual guild without most of their members 45+

Even last few bosses in hc gonna be hard with 35 traits.

My guild spend spend most of our raid time in last month by farming m+, you gonna change gear in Nighthold pretty fast.

Btw. Difference between 35 and 54 is like having 2 extra damage dealers in 20 man raid without increasing difficulty.

My guild 8 manned the 1st 3 bosses on heroic(ptr of course), so i'm not sure whats so difficult. From what ive heard, the gear was even scaled to 879 and 34 traits during testing. People will roflstomp their way to Gul'dan, he's the only challenging boss before mythic.

[Leih]

Thats not true, heroic Guldan was tested with gear scaling to 878 ilevel and artifacts locked at 34 traits (Im not sure about the artifact part). Its pretty safe to assume that anybody clearing mythics on EN and/or ToV will heavily overgear normal NH and overgear heroic by a decent margin. Thats how it should be, ppl doing mythics should eb able to move straight into mythics, altough with tier sets on the table ppl will want to run normal and heroic anyway.

They tested one fight on the PTR = we can work out the tuning for the whole raid? Bit of a leap.

[ONCHEhap]

Nighthold seems to have a real difficulty curve
first few bosses seems easy,around the middle they seem interesting and challenging,Elisande and Gul'dan are no joke

[DakonBlackblade]

They tested one fight on the PTR = we can work out the tuning for the whole raid? Bit of a leap.

The last boss of the raid, tested 1 month prior to patch coming live, after multiple other testings of other bosses all of witch used similar scaling (on the last month or so of the ptr pretty much every boss had a second, in some cases third, round of heroic testing). They are tuning the harder bosses on heroic for 880-885 ilevel with 35 traits tops. Normal is probably at the 870sh range.

[Taalyn]

They tested one fight on the PTR = we can work out the tuning for the whole raid? Bit of a leap.

They tested every fight on the PTR including Gul'dan which they originally intended not to test on any difficulty.

[Krazzorx]

In a vacuum I don't think the later bosses being tuned for 54 points will be an issue for most mythic guilds. Most won't get there for a couple months and just casually getting AP you'll easily have 54 by then.

[Softbottom]

Just did first 5 bosses easily on normal with no wipes. Will let you know how the rest goes.

[Choloz]

Nighthold mythic will be impossible to balance due to the state of AP in its current form, especially the last few bosses. You either tune Guldan around 54 traits and any guild that doesn't have 90% of their raid there fights the numbers boss and not the encounter or they tune it for 40/45 and then any raid that has 54 traits for 90% will stomp it.

Normal and heroic will probably be tuned around having 30/35 traits respectively and roughly 870/880 ilvl.

I'd say look at your rosters AP level and ilvl and base it off that. If your whole raidteam is 880+ and 35+ traits i'd just jump in to heroic.

anyone raiding mythic will have max weapon traits by the time they hit gul'dan