Do you think subs in Legion are going up or down?

[tratra]

Historically WoW subs always spiked up when new expansion was released, to slowly go down (TBC/WotLK might be exceptions as WoW was still young back then).
What I think is keeping WoW still alive are the new kids. Older WoW players like myself usually outgrow spending a lot of time in a MMORPG. Responsibilities catch up to us...

Completely wrong on that matey. Kids dont play wow, they'll play dota or lol or csgo but not wow. Wow has the kind of structure that kids don't enjoy playing anymore especially when they can play playstation or xbox games etc or other faster paced games.

Its us idiots (including me) that keep resubbing and buy new expansions just to feel how it is for a month or 2 and then we say our goodbyes for a year or so.... I've been unsubbed since TBC really, and keep coming back for a month or 2 since then just to get my fix and then thats it. Yes responsibilities catch up with you, but kids are not keeping up this game anymore, its just old players coming back to see whats new.

[Deleted]

My account has been frozen since 28.11.2016. I won't return, I just had enough of WOW.

Plus I wouldn't have the time to bother with it - I have full time job AND an university course over the weekends. There is no way that I could commit to scheduled raiding again. Besides, the raiding is the same thing that it was in tier 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18. It ain't any different. Same mechanics, same principle.

I could do what I did best - gold making and selling it, but why bother. Overtime in the job produces better results and the opportunities for it are pretty frequent.

To be honest with you, I liked WOD. It was lightweight enterntainment - all I needed to do was raids, garrison missions and perhaps 8 mythic dungeons for valor (which we would do in such extreme overgear that they would go very quickly).

Legion is a convoluted mess for me. AP grind, lolgendary grind, relic grind, specs being a mess, RNG on gear, professions grind... it's too much.

[rda]

I highly doubt that. Normal and heroic are so ez everyone can do it without having to need a guild.
Doing rated pvp at a decent lvl requires a guild or group of friends.
In legion I think pve is a lot more popular then pvp, and by a lot I mean a lot, pvp is dying.

I think there are even more mythic raiders then players who participate in rated pvp weekly/daily.
Link your sources if u claim to have proof of the contrary.

I will link some sources, but please cut down on the rhetoric (I don't owe you anything, your illusions of reality are your own business, so next time you demand something of me instead of ask, I will ignore the request).

Here is an approximate number of raiders for tier 16 (SoO, bigger than any other raid tier after it) from wowprogress:

http://www.wowprogress.com/stats

The absolute highest number is the number of players with just one kill in normal - 1 mil. That's for all of US+EU+Asia, although we have to ask wowprogress as to how complete the numbers for Asia were at the time. The number correlates well with other numbers, such as those published by MMO-C. Again, that's all people with just one kill in normal difficulty - not even one clear, one kill.

Now, the size of the 3v3 ladder in the same season:

http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...fs/archive/s15

That's 330k for US + 375k for EU = 705k for US+EU. Add Asia and we'll have about the same 1 mil as above.

You can see that the numbers are completely comparable.

The number of mythic raiders is significantly smaller than the number of people who do rated arenas. It is more like the number of people who are 2000+.

Yes, in Legion, PVP is in such a bad shape, that PVP numbers are dwindling. With time, the number of players who do rated arenas might reduce to 1/2 or 1/3 or even 1/10 that who raid. The number of people who do any PVP at all might similarly reduce compared to the number who do any PVE at all (talking about both activities at max-level). That's exactly one of the big issues with Legion.

[cuafpr]

PvP has always been terrible and a major thing that I despised about this game. Especially in the past when PvP balancing also screwed people over in the PvE environment.
My theory as to why there's so little PvP participation is because scrubs can no longer faceroll undergeared players into the ground. Stat templates have put everything on a level playing field which makes them QQ ragequit when they get killed by someone that can play their class better.

Either way, I applaud Holinka's continued efforts to kill PvP. It'll be a joyous day when it is removed from WoW for good.

i agree with part of what you are saying, me and some guildies were taking about this over the weekend. One loves to pvp and was talking about the lack of people PVPing now, and even they agreed its b.c. PVPers got what they have been begging for, their own talents, gear doesnt matter its more skill based. No longer can you just get gear and faceroll in PVP. Now i can't speak on it b.c. i don't pvp but it makes senses with the baseline gear and unqiue talents for pvp only. I'm just glad PVP is no longer affecting PVE.

[Deleted]

The biggest reason subs
Went down last years coz by the other games.
10 years ago there wasn't a lot of good games.
Gaming industrie was just
Begining. And Bliz was a big pioneer
These days.
Life ppl hardware software was a totaly different world.
I remember how happy i was
With my first voodo gpu 32 mb.
And the flaming and blaming
Culture these days.

[Deleted]

We are 4.5 months into the addon. We've seen launch, we've seen 7.1, we've seen Blizzcon, we've seen 7.1.5. We did not yet see 7.2, just heard some plans regarding what it will contain, when 7.2 will come is not really clear. We did not hear much about further patches, there will probably be 7.3 with Argus, but that's about all the info we have and the whole thing is far enough away that it is not even possible to say whether it will be small or big.

Before Legion, we had WoD. WoD was received terribly. In terms of subs, it was an absolute disaster, about half of the players left the game. Most people criticizing WoD say that the biggest issue was lack of content.

Legion is different from WoD in that the complaints have a slightly different tone. Instead of a single issue like lack of content, the complaints concentrate around several issues. Two biggest seem to be, roughly: (a) artifact power / legendaries / endless grind, and (b) class balance / pruning / specs being unpleasant to play or 'unviable'.

Some might think these issues are important. Others might think they are overblown and don't really exist. The post makes no attempt to steer you one direction or the other. Just tell what you think regarding a simple question:

Do you think Legion is making subs go up or down? Or, if you think that whatever Legion does is mostly irrelevant because subs go up or down due to other, bigger factors - do you think subs are going up or down with all the factors combined? Will we have more or less subs after Legion ends than we had after previous expansion (WoD) ended?

In a nutshell: WoD evidently saw subs going way down. Do you think Legion is reversing / will reverse this direction?

I don't think the subs for ANY expansion will go up throughout its course anymore. I mean the game is over a decade old, the majority of players who play MMOs are either bored of them, or have played WoW at some point and will just return to try out the new content. I can't see an expansion coming out of such high quality it will attract millions of brand new players to the genre. The expansion is easily one of the best to date but it still won't see a massive increase in players after the initial 4 weeks of release due to the fact the genre is of a dying breed with the current generation of gamer. Whereas the previous generation who brought WoW up to 12 million players have grown up, got jobs and other responsibilities and are moving on from playing WoW 24/7, alongside with the fact they're most likely bored to death with their 12 year old game and are just looking for excuses to stop playing.

[Jiai]

I believe Legion is good, but i'm pretty sure subs are going down.

[Eleccybubb]

The biggest reason subs
Went down last years coz by the other games.
10 years ago there wasn't a lot of good games.
Gaming industrie was just
Begining. And Bliz was a big pioneer
These days.
Life ppl hardware software was a totaly different world.
I remember how happy i was
With my first voodo gpu 32 mb.
And the flaming and blaming
Culture these days.

Uhm there were some quite good MMOs and games in 2006-2007. Guild Wars, Everquest 2, FF11 was still doing quite well and as for non MMOs here is a list for 2006-2007.

Bioshock
The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
Halo 3
Command and Conquer 3
Hitman Blood Money
Just Cause
God of War 2
Pokemon Diamond and Pearl
Final Fantasy 12

List goes on. To claim there weren't a lot of good games around 10 years ago which was the TBC era was preposterous. 2004 and 2005 had some decent years as well but you said 10 years ago so I listed things from 2006-2007. Gaming industry certainly wasn't beginning then. It began when Nintendo and Sega revived it after the crash in the 80s. The 90s blew it out of the water with the PS1.

And PC gaming was most certainly a thing 20-25 years ago. Counter Strike, Half Life, Starcraft, Myst and Diablo 2 for example sold millions during their time.

[HumbleDuck]

Relative to what?
Subs last month? Last year? 2004?

[rda]

Relative to what?
Subs last month? Last year? 2004?

From the first post:

Will we have more or less subs after Legion ends than we had after previous expansion (WoD) ended?

[HumbleDuck]

The biggest reason subs
Went down last years coz by the other games.
10 years ago there wasn't a lot of good games.
Gaming industrie was just
Begining. And Bliz was a big pioneer
These days.
Life ppl hardware software was a totaly different world.
I remember how happy i was
With my first voodo gpu 32 mb.
And the flaming and blaming
Culture these days.

I think you do not realise how close 10 years ago was:
8800gt was released in 2006
Oblivion, Dawn of War, HF2 episode one, rainbow six: vegas were released in 2006
CoD4, Bioshock, UT3, halo3, AC, HF2 episode two, Witcher were released in 2007

- - - Updated - - -

From the first post:

Will we have more or less subs after Legion ends than we had after previous expansion (WoD) ended?

In that case, based on pure anecdotal evidence, it sustained a much bigger player base compared to WoD.
How it will end in the other hand is dependent on how blizzard maintain content, which I am optimistic about.

[Deleted]

I will link some sources, but please cut down on the rhetoric (I don't owe you anything, your illusions of reality are your own business, so next time you demand something of me instead of ask, I will ignore the request).

Here is an approximate number of raiders for tier 16 (SoO, bigger than any other raid tier after it) from wowprogress:

http://www.wowprogress.com/stats

The absolute highest number is the number of players with just one kill in normal - 1 mil. That's for all of US+EU+Asia, although we have to ask wowprogress as to how complete the numbers for Asia were at the time. The number correlates well with other numbers, such as those published by MMO-C. Again, that's all people with just one kill in normal difficulty - not even one clear, one kill.

Now, the size of the 3v3 ladder in the same season:

http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...fs/archive/s15

That's 330k for US + 375k for EU = 705k for US+EU. Add Asia and we'll have about the same 1 mil as above.

You can see that the numbers are completely comparable.

The number of mythic raiders is significantly smaller than the number of people who do rated arenas. It is more like the number of people who are 2000+.

Yes, in Legion, PVP is in such a bad shape, that PVP numbers are dwindling. With time, the number of players who do rated arenas might reduce to 1/2 or 1/3 or even 1/10 that who raid. The number of people who do any PVP at all might similarly reduce compared to the number who do any PVE at all (talking about both activities at max-level). That's exactly one of the big issues with Legion.

Yes ofc, in mop pvp was doing really well compared to now. And even at the start of wod.

But I believe pvp got hit hard during the 2 years of thrashran, and I dont think there were as much returning pvp players due to no new bg. And how legion pvp has played out I think the pvp aspect is losing wow a lot of subs. A lot of pvpers are quiting while raiders are very much active with the release of Nighthold this week.

So no, I dont believe there are currently as much high end pvp as high end pve players

Edit: after reading what u said again, I think we are basically saying the same thing: pvp players are quitting.
But u seem to think of the pvp community as the people who play now plus the people who left, but Im only talking about whats going on now.

[rda]

Yes ofc, in mop pvp was doing really well compared to now. And even at the start of wod.

But I believe pvp got hit hard during the 2 years of thrashran, and I dont think there were as much returning pvp players due to no new bg. And how legion pvp has played out I think the pvp aspect is losing wow a lot of subs. A lot of pvpers are quiting while raiders are very much active with the release of Nighthold this week.

So no, I dont believe there are currently as much high end pvp as high end pve players

PVP was hit the same as PVE with WoD, that's again in the numbers (ie, MMO-C for PVE, arena trackers for PVP).

The only hit that affected PVP more than PVE came with Legion. As I said, that's exactly one of the big issues with Legion, it screwed up PVP.

The hit was serious, yes, we are talking about a reduction from 100% to 50-60%, depending on bracket.

[Eleccybubb]

I think you do not realise how close 10 years ago was:
8800gt was released in 2006
Oblivion, Dawn of War, HF2 episode one, rainbow six: vegas were released in 2006
CoD4, Bioshock, UT3, halo3, AC, HF2 episode two, Witcher were released in 2007

- - - Updated - - -



In that case, based on pure anecdotal evidence, it sustained a much bigger player base compared to WoD.
How it will end in the other hand is dependent on how blizzard maintain content, which I am optimistic about.

Voodoos are fucking ancient. The last models the 5 were released around 2000 maybe 2001. I have one in my Windows 98 PC.

[rda]

Edit: after reading what u said again, I think we are basically saying the same thing: pvp players are quitting.
But u seem to think of the pvp community as the people who play now plus the people who left, but Im only talking about whats going on now.

I agree that PVP players are quitting, totally. My point is that their number was high - as high as PVEers - and is still comparatively high, way too high to say "nah, that's a minority, there's only a few guys there". Although if they keep doing what they are doing with PVP, sure enough, the number of PVPers will get to the point of being negligible.

[Valium104]

It's completely fine, I don't think anyone would have any issues whatsoever with such a point of view.

But allow me a simple illustration why you might want to care (but again, if you aren't persuaded - that's absolutely fine):

When subs go down, at some point that starts to affect even people who wouldn't otherwise care. There's obviously a global "if the number of people gets too small, we will stop getting updates because they will put the devs elsewhere", but it doesn't even have to get to that, various edge effects start to get in the way much faster.

Case in point, Legion has been terrible for PVP so far. And when I say "terrible", I mean it. One would normally expect a new addon to improve upon things or at least generate enough buzz to attract more people than there was at the end of a previous expansion. Well, Legion PVP was so bad that although Legion as a whole perhaps had a sub spike (we can kind of see that in activity graphs), PVP had no spike, the numbers went DOWN compared to WoD, not up. The amount of people who do PVP reduced to about 60% of what it was in the last season of WoD. Yes, really. So, why should anyone care, right? We are still talking about big numbers, right? Well, not exactly. In PVP, they give out titles based on whatever percentage from the top you are in. And in Legion season 1, the numbers went so low that the number of people who should have gotten the top title for RBG was LOWER than a full RBG team. Now, they managed to make a coding mistake in that place which they are going to fix, and after they fix it, the number of people will be somewhat more than one full RBG team, but even then you can see that the edge effect is very real, we are already in the numbers so low that we start seeing idiocies like that.

Because unvocal majority wanted to progress with gear in PvP and grind. This game is focused at playerbase who want gratification, not wins.

[Mayia]

I think active players have gone down since the start of the expansion but that is visible players out doing shit, since many make the choice not to do wq's and do raids mythics and pvp instead it seems like the numbers are down, but i imagine it dipped a little as all expansions normally do after a big peak at the new expansion, its no pandarian.

[Deleted]

I agree that PVP players are quitting, totally. My point is that their number was high - as high as PVEers - and is still comparatively high, way too high to say "nah, that's a minority, there's only a few guys there". Although if they keep doing what they are doing with PVP, sure enough, the number of PVPers will get to the point of being negligible.

I think the main problem with pvp now, is that it is too hard for new players to get into. There is no adventure guide telling what gear u get from pvp or no explaining at the start of a bg that tells u the objectives. If blizz did a better job of introducing new players to pvp it would help a lot. Ofc there are many other problems in legion with pvp.
Im just not sure if blizzard wants competative wow pvp to be a thing, they seem to not care as much anymore. And if blizzard doesnt seem to care, the playerbase doesnt either. Thats why everyone sees pvp more as a minority these days.

Edit: Im just saying blizz puts way more effort into the design of mythic raid encounters then into the design of pvp.

[Deleted]

subs are going up and down because the game is now designed towards millenial people who have an attention span of a whopping 8 seconds ! (no really look it up)

[rda]

I kind of wonder when the fanboys will realize that the fourth option is simply "I am here to whine about whiners, please ignore my voice". :-)