Left behind again? Shout out to blizzard devs.

[Absalomm]

Ok i dont realy know how to put this in just a few words so i will try and be short. I have been playing WW for years now, ever since they came out, and im totaly in love with my class BUT realy ofthen i see my selfe feeling bad for playing it. Its not me qqing for top dps or something like that its just that it seems ww's are intentionaly left behind since the end od MoP. I used to be competitive, raided top tier content during MoP, skiped WoD simply coz after the third nerf we were not welcomed in any of progress raids, and now with Legion i have chance at end game content again... Or at least i had a chance... What i want to point to devs is that even though we got a buff with last patch it was not as nearly as good as other classes that were allready out performing us by significant amounts. Plz just consider making us at least viable, not a necesity. Withnew hotfix ww is again the big winner of last dps spot to pick. Like i said. Im not crying about anithing. I pull my weights, i just ask of you to be fair and compare us to midle tier dps classes not top tier, and show us some long over due love. Thank you in advance.

P.S Sorry bout bad English. Not my native language

[Saverem]

I think the perfect word to describe WWs (and MWs too) is "filler".

They don't really provide anything unique to a raid that would specifically make a guild want to recruit them for raids. They don't have lust, brez, amazing utility like Paladins and Druids, cheese ability, etc. The only reason why a guild would actively recruit a WW/MW right now is because they don't have any Monks in their guild.

They are just there to take up a raid spot and do their job, be it DPS or heal.

They are the vanilla flavor class of WoW.

[Absalomm]

They are. I agree. For that reason i do think we should at least get something... Yes we have mobility and some personal stuff but thats about it. Not a single reason why a raid group would need a monk...


Basicaly this is what we need. Opinions and observations. Keep it coming. More feedback yields results!!!

[Babylonius]

Ok i dont realy know how to put this in just a few words so i will try and be short. I have been playing WW for years now, ever since they came out, and im totaly in love with my class BUT realy ofthen i see my selfe feeling bad for playing it. Its not me qqing for top dps or something like that its just that it seems ww's are intentionaly left behind since the end od MoP. I used to be competitive, raided top tier content during MoP, skiped WoD simply coz after the third nerf we were not welcomed in any of progress raids, and now with Legion i have chance at end game content again... Or at least i had a chance... What i want to point to devs is that even though we got a buff with last patch it was not as nearly as good as other classes that were allready out performing us by significant amounts. Plz just consider making us at least viable, not a necesity. Withnew hotfix ww is again the big winner of last dps spot to pick. Like i said. Im not crying about anithing. I pull my weights, i just ask of you to be fair and compare us to midle tier dps classes not top tier, and show us some long over due love. Thank you in advance.

P.S Sorry bout bad English. Not my native language

Not that you dont' have a reason to feel the way that you do, but a few issues I have with what you said.

You quit in WoD because of the nerfs, so missed how incredibly strong WW was on the hardest fights of BRF and HFC, one of, if not the best melee on Maidens, Blast Furnace, Velhari, Manno, and Archimonde. Highmaul sucked after the nerfs, but WW got some pretty solid buffs in BRF and was very strong for those who knew how to play it, at least until people were stacked with legendary rings that made burst the only thing that mattered.

WW got buffed, that much I can say confidently because I'm the guy doing most of the work for the spec, but I doubt you have all the information on all of the other specs to be able to accurately say whether they were buffed more or less than WW. Most SimC profiles are still being worked on, so any SimC rankings are bogus, and we've only had one week of EN/ToV, but which is showing that WW is quite strong, partly due to the Chi Orbit bug the first night, so WCL rankings are bogus.

I am in no way saying that you may be wrong, or that WW may not be the lowest DPS spec, because I don't have all the information. And considering I'm one of the people with the most information, that should say something.

Right now we have to wait a bit to see how Nighthold ranks out, because many of the fights will really fit a WW's toolkit, where as EN and ToV were almost designed against WW.

[Kinetiic]

Not that you dont' have a reason to feel the way that you do, but a few issues I have with what you said.

You quit in WoD because of the nerfs, so missed how incredibly strong WW was on the hardest fights of BRF and HFC, one of, if not the best melee on Maidens, Blast Furnace, Velhari, Manno, and Archimonde. Highmaul sucked after the nerfs, but WW got some pretty solid buffs in BRF and was very strong for those who knew how to play it, at least until people were stacked with legendary rings that made burst the only thing that mattered.

WW got buffed, that much I can say confidently because I'm the guy doing most of the work for the spec, but I doubt you have all the information on all of the other specs to be able to accurately say whether they were buffed more or less than WW. Most SimC profiles are still being worked on, so any SimC rankings are bogus, and we've only had one week of EN/ToV, but which is showing that WW is quite strong, partly due to the Chi Orbit bug the first night, so WCL rankings are bogus.

I am in no way saying that you may be wrong, or that WW may not be the lowest DPS spec, because I don't have all the information. And considering I'm one of the people with the most information, that should say something.

Right now we have to wait a bit to see how Nighthold ranks out, because many of the fights will really fit a WW's toolkit, where as EN and ToV were almost designed against WW.

Babs pretty much summed up how I feel about your post. Windwalkers are great for cleave and getting targets down in a jiffy. Knowing that we will be in an even BETTER place in Night Hold than we were in EN/TOV is awesome news. What matters is that you are having fun with your class and learning the ins and outs of it. Your skill can outdo a better parsing class if you are playing with 100% efficiency and they are just being mediocre. Have fun, learn to the best you can and kill bosses. Blizzard will take care of us. Once you stop worrying about other classes and only about how well you are doing, you will be fine.

[Absalomm]

I realy hope you guys are right about our standings and night hold. Coz atm you can sim all you want or go back to WoD and similar stuff it still doesnt change the fact that ww is not bringing anithing to the table. Simple as that. I dont care about Simulations and similar stuff, i know what i can do and can not do and im far away from botom. The real problem is that exelent in ww case is not enough. Mythic+ yes, we can be competitive, but in raid enviroment we are simply not enough. Just like our monk fella said in his post we are curently just a vanila class.

[Height]

WW does bring raid wide run speed. Even more with the legendary. I'm sticking with WW no matter what simply because I'm not spending time on an alt. I want to play other games too, and one main is enough this expansion. Maybe I will later. Shrug.

[Dragon88]

OP you're justified in how you feel. I think your sentiment captures how a lot of Monks (new and old) feel. It is hard when you only enjoy one class as much or can only devote upkeep into one and you see others achieve similar results with more ease. The lack of utility is a consistent theme too.

The only thing I know to do is say you just have to keep reevaluating if it's worth that feeling for you. I don't think anyone like the rest of us who have stuck with WW since launch would blame you for how you feel. Maybe just find a place where your ability to pull your weight and shine despite those downsides is appreciated more. Or take some personal pride in it, because as small as the Monk community is, I enjoy seeing when any one Monk is able to defy all outside expectations. But if the frustration eats into your enjoyment, then you should at least give yourself a chance to try another class and see if the tradeoff on utility and parses is worth it.

Best of luck to you.

[Absalomm]

OP you're justified in how you feel. I think your sentiment captures how a lot of Monks (new and old) feel. It is hard when you only enjoy one class as much or can only devote upkeep into one and you see others achieve similar results with more ease. The lack of utility is a consistent theme too.

The only thing I know to do is say you just have to keep reevaluating if it's worth that feeling for you. I don't think anyone like the rest of us who have stuck with WW since launch would blame you for how you feel. Maybe just find a place where your ability to pull your weight and shine despite those downsides is appreciated more. Or take some personal pride in it, because as small as the Monk community is, I enjoy seeing when any one Monk is able to defy all outside expectations. But if the frustration eats into your enjoyment, then you should at least give yourself a chance to try another class and see if the tradeoff on utility and parses is worth it.

Best of luck to you.

I agree with what you said, and it has a lot to do with why i decided to open this topic. But i realy would like to actualy see them do something serious with our class. I do take personal pride in my play. Keeping up with shadow priests, warlocks or dk-s gives me a lot of joy. But i hate seeing average players giving up on monk class just coz of shier numbers or complexity of the class. The overal feel is that sometimes its not that rewarding even when it is. I just wanted to point out that if your going to make a class that is this skill dependant, that requ. high self avarnes you should at least let it see some action while in the other hand we are denied that action just coz we do not contribute as a class, not as players. I dont see that as a fair thing. Example is that i pull from 550k to 600+k on 3min. fights with my monk who has 888ilvl equiped while i do like 350+k on same length single target fight qith my 864ilvl frost dk that has 23 traits in weapon tree. Now that dk expiriense is rewarding as fuck after all the hustlei have gone trough with my monk... Its just sad...

[Bodakane]

WW is for the first time...fun to play, IMO.

[Absalomm]

WW is for the first time...fun to play, IMO.

Mastery <3 ^^

- - - Updated - - -

Not that you dont' have a reason to feel the way that you do, but a few issues I have with what you said.

You quit in WoD because of the nerfs, so missed how incredibly strong WW was on the hardest fights of BRF and HFC, one of, if not the best melee on Maidens, Blast Furnace, Velhari, Manno, and Archimonde. Highmaul sucked after the nerfs, but WW got some pretty solid buffs in BRF and was very strong for those who knew how to play it, at least until people were stacked with legendary rings that made burst the only thing that mattered.

WW got buffed, that much I can say confidently because I'm the guy doing most of the work for the spec, but I doubt you have all the information on all of the other specs to be able to accurately say whether they were buffed more or less than WW. Most SimC profiles are still being worked on, so any SimC rankings are bogus, and we've only had one week of EN/ToV, but which is showing that WW is quite strong, partly due to the Chi Orbit bug the first night, so WCL rankings are bogus.

I am in no way saying that you may be wrong, or that WW may not be the lowest DPS spec, because I don't have all the information. And considering I'm one of the people with the most information, that should say something.

Right now we have to wait a bit to see how Nighthold ranks out, because many of the fights will really fit a WW's toolkit, where as EN and ToV were almost designed against WW.

Btw Bab i think you are doing amazing work man! I love your guides and i realy respect your opinion!!! Only thing i never could agree with is that sef was worse then serenity Even before fix with potio of prologned power it was duable to pull beter numbers then with serenity from my expirience ^^ But everithing else man! You put a base for every WW out there, all we have to do is twick it to our needs! I realy look forward to more Sim results. I usualy use them as a goal to reach and beat

[Juliansfist]

You forget that monkz are the coolest and you get bragging rights for bringing a monk.

More seriously monks are solid progression raiders but falls behind as a farm raider. Although WW's strength in progression raiding has diminished due to hit combo mastery being rather bland and our defensives taking a hit - WW is still good for progression.

I would stand by this statement: monks get better the harder the raid gets.

[Stormhold]

WW does bring raid wide run speed. Even more with the legendary. I'm sticking with WW no matter what simply because I'm not spending time on an alt. I want to play other games too, and one main is enough this expansion. Maybe I will later. Shrug.

If 10 yards is raidwide, then ok. True for Elerethe Renferal, but...
(Windwalking, spell ID = 157411)

[ElDoorO]

There's the WW FSK bug I run into occasionally but other than that I don't feel "left behind". I feel middle of the pack which is a fair place to be.

MW -- I think isn't in a bad spot either. Mass dispel that's basically raid-wide and doesn't need to be targetted? Yup, that'd be Revival. I'm not terribly fond of cocoon compared to what other classes have but right now I'm on average about 15%+ better healing than the rest of my fellow healers so... at this point it's not the class holding us back in any form. We also only do heroic and full clear EN/TOV because we are one or two shy of Mythic raiding right now. So take this opinion from that standpoint.

[Rakoth]

I have thought about changing my Mistweaver around for a shaman or pally healer. I can't, I love the healing style, and I have a lot of fun. I am not in a progression guild, we play to have fun, so, while utility does indeed suck, it's a fun class to play.

Same goes for Windwalker, I actually prefer it to my rogue, the character I spent most of my life playing.

[arisoh]

I have thought about changing my Mistweaver around for a shaman or pally healer. I can't, I love the healing style, and I have a lot of fun. I am not in a progression guild, we play to have fun, so, while utility does indeed suck, it's a fun class to play.

Same goes for Windwalker, I actually prefer it to my rogue, the character I spent most of my life playing.

Same. I have zero legendary as a MW, while my hpal has 1, I could play rogue instead of my WW and I could be a bear instead of brm. But I just CAN'T give up my monk. I like the style. Sure, the results arent the best, but playing a monk is FUN for me. And in the end, I guess that's all that matters to me.

[AetherMcLoud]

You forget that monkz are the coolest and you get bragging rights for bringing a monk.

More seriously monks are solid progression raiders but falls behind as a farm raider. Although WW's strength in progression raiding has diminished due to hit combo mastery being rather bland and our defensives taking a hit - WW is still good for progression.

I would stand by this statement: monks get better the harder the raid gets.

As a dps we're pretty self-sufficient IMHO which is a great dps trait to have when progression raiding. Karma lets us take otherwise instakills or make up for mistakes in positioning, healing elixir and our 15 talents add up to quite some selfheal over long fights and I'd argue that even with DHs we're still the most mobile DPS in the game because we don't use our mobility to do damage so we have it when we need it, and also we have teleport to cheese a lot of mechanics (and also get some sweet selfheal).

And at least on the first 4 bosses I did today there were lots of adds that needed to be cleaved hard and fast something we do very well even if our sustain single target might be lacking (or middle of the pack now, dunno).

Honestly all 3 monk specs are so much fun - being only rivaled by shadowpriests IMHO which are at the height of their design - even if we're not top-notch we still don't suck either, and I've always been welcome in m+ and pug raids, be it as tank heal or dps. I guess people at sometime figured that there are so few monk players (for whatever reasons) that those who stuck with the class to main it actually know their shit.

Raw balancing aside, all 3 monk specs are some of the best Legion designs. They really NAILED the martial artists combo kick-puncher feeling in all specs (ww masters+hit combo, blackout combo for tanks, the fact that most of your heals enhance your other heals as mw).

Like how most other specs play like "press these buttons when available, use procs", done, or "spam this to generate, use these to spend". Wow such fun much immersion.

Now whenever I play monk (or shadowpriest) I feel like