1. #1

    Will shadow stat weights be affected by the incoming nerf?

    With the arrival of patch 7.1.5, mastery seems to have replaced crit as our primary stat after reaching the cutoffs for haste and with it also came the rise of using Sanlayn instead of Auspicious Spirits.

    With the incoming dmg nerf to SwP and VT, would this tuning affect our stats weights to the point where mastery became undesirable again?

    Just wondering how i should approach gearing for NH because right now im spamming M+'s hoarding haste/mastery gear.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhaps View Post
    With the arrival of patch 7.1.5, mastery seems to have replaced crit as our primary stat after reaching the cutoffs for haste and with it also came the rise of using Sanlayn instead of Auspicious Spirits.

    With the incoming dmg nerf to SwP and VT, would this tuning affect our stats weights to the point where mastery became undesirable again?

    Just wondering how i should approach gearing for NH because right now im spamming M+'s hoarding haste/mastery gear.
    You better use a 7.1.5 simulator with scaling factors right now before getting to that conclusion. For me at 880, mastery is actually still the worse stat, even with Sanlayn.

    After the next nerf patch coming, AS will be way ahead of Sanlayn, and mastery will become even worse.

  3. #3
    No saying yet, there needs to be more testing needs to be done, with the nerfs only being announced last night and all. Current estimates put both Mastery and Crit slightly higher than before though because the nerfs directly hit int. Short answer, just wait on the new sims to be run.

    And mikah, 12k haste, 80% mastery, 15% crit, i'm doing more dps with Mastery and SL than Crit heavy with AS or SL. Are you doing that in sims or in practice?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikah View Post
    AS will be way ahead of Sanlayn, and mastery will become even worse.
    personally from my tests right night now on training dummies, the extra stacks of Voidform that AS is able to provide us with when stacking crit doesnt seem to outperform the extra damage we get with mastery and SL as it is quite easy to reach 30 stacks now. Although personally i have seen many high ranking logs with crit AS focus but this is mainly for use with S2M. Right now i just feel as if since the AS nerf it just doesnt generate enough insanity outside of S2M to warrant taking it.

    However since the dot nerf wud impact both int and mastery more than crit, this may be subject to change.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    No saying yet, there needs to be more testing needs to be done, with the nerfs only being announced last night and all. Current estimates put both Mastery and Crit slightly higher than before though because the nerfs directly hit int. Short answer, just wait on the new sims to be run.

    And mikah, 12k haste, 80% mastery, 15% crit, i'm doing more dps with Mastery and SL than Crit heavy with AS or SL. Are you doing that in sims or in practice?

    Both, but I rely mostly on sims for this data, as I am seeing quite a difference in practice. And I'm only doing LotV, as I am not seeing much use for S2M in Nighthold until people farm them faster.

    I'm at 11k haste (which is around 28%), 50% mastery, 28% crit and 4% vers. In that range, I am almost always getting about 1.05 for haste, 0.95 for crit, 0.85 for vers and 0.79 for mastery (Im doing small variation using higher ilevel gear with mastery and/or versatility). Using AS and LotV, this gives me 486k at 879 ilevel, which is the highest dps I can sim.

    If I use this exact gear for Sanlayn, the scaling factors are almost the same, except for crit which goes down to 0.85, and mastery goes up slightly to 0.83, so mastery is still the lowest stat. However, the dps on the sims goes down to 450k!


    With the incoming nerf affecting Vampiric touch more, I assume AS will take over Sanlayn regardless of how much mastery you got. This is really unfortunate, because that talent allowed mastery to be potentially viable if that's the titanforged gear you have.

    Seems like a lot of thoughts from someone competent went into the initial patch 7.1.5 to address this issue of stacking only 1 stat, not only bringing all the secondary stats closer to each other, but also allowing tweaks of talents to match what you actually have in your bags. And now, some dude with the massive nerf bat just whacked it good without even taking in considerations these tweaks.

    And I am not saying we did not deserve the nerf. It is currently ridiculous on live. But I don't understand why they chose those numbers, when they could have done something far more elegant and useful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mhaps View Post
    personally from my tests right night now on training dummies, the extra stacks of Voidform that AS is able to provide us with when stacking crit doesnt seem to outperform the extra damage we get with mastery and SL as it is quite easy to reach 30 stacks now. Although personally i have seen many high ranking logs with crit AS focus but this is mainly for use with S2M. Right now i just feel as if since the AS nerf it just doesnt generate enough insanity outside of S2M to warrant taking it.

    However since the dot nerf wud impact both int and mastery more than crit, this may be subject to change.
    I unfortunately did not keep much mastery gear, so I can not test myself.

    I would be very interested if someone could sim at 880 ilevel a set that is over 80% mastery using Sanlayn, and see if you get higher than 486k, and what are the scaling factors.
    Last edited by Mikah; 2017-01-16 at 02:07 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikah View Post
    --Snip--
    Ah, yea, AS would still be better for you considering your high crit rate still, they're talking SL taking over when the rating for mastery is higher.

    And as for SL vs AS after nerf, I'll let people smarter than me figure that out, current estimates still put Mastery and SL ahead but who knows what the end results will be.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikah View Post
    Both, but I rely mostly on sims for this data...
    Which sims? Your own sims? Your results does not agree with the extensive simulation and number crunching done by the h2p community.

    At the moment the numbers say that SL is on top, with mastery being the stat of choice after ~12k haste and 4k crit in a raiding environment. The hotfix mostly lowers the value of int and mastery will still be on top, especially with the 4p tier bonus.

    https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9495

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by quez View Post
    Which sims? Your own sims? Your results does not agree with the extensive simulation and number crunching done by the h2p community.

    At the moment the numbers say that SL is on top, with mastery being the stat of choice after ~12k haste and 4k crit in a raiding environment. The hotfix mostly lowers the value of int and mastery will still be on top, especially with the 4p tier bonus.

    https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9495
    Using simulationcraft.

    I have no idea how they can get data so far from mine. Is simulationcraft no longer appropriate? Or are they using nighthold level gear? Or are they using multiple targets instead of patchwerk style fights?

    Last day before the nerf patch comes out, I'd like to sim a profile with high mastery around my ilevel so I can compare both tomorrow when the patch come out to calculate the loss of overall dps. Anyone has around 880 ilevel and 80%+ mastery so I can compare the two specs?


    EDIT: The data from H2P is using simulations against different fight styles, and the conclusions they are showing used styles that reflected the best each bosses in Nighthold, many of which have multiple targets or adds.

    So their data reflects the best gear/stats you should aim to optimize dps in Nighthold, not the best dps single target wise. That's why mastery and VT ranked much higher compared to Patchwerk style fights that I was using. Unfortunately, that's the part that is going to be hit the hardest tomorrow...
    Last edited by Mikah; 2017-01-16 at 02:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Uhhhhh, aren't we supposed to be optimising our dps for the real bosses and not ST patchwerk fights? I could be wrong, and Im pretty sure you said it yourself, Nighthold tomorrow, not simcraft patchwerk boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodledoo View Post
    Uhhhhh, aren't we supposed to be optimising our dps for the real bosses and not ST patchwerk fights? I could be wrong, and Im pretty sure you said it yourself, Nighthold tomorrow, not simcraft patchwerk boss.
    Unfortunately, Nighthold is not an option for simulations, and the tuning coming out tomorrow are not available for sims, regardless of fight style you pick.

    The point is to figure out what will be the best way to gear from now on.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikah View Post
    Unfortunately, Nighthold is not an option for simulations, and the tuning coming out tomorrow are not available for sims, regardless of fight style you pick.

    The point is to figure out what will be the best way to gear from now on.
    The new sims finished today were finished AFTER the hotfix was announced and reflect the hotfix changes, including cloak which has now moved up in the list of legendaries and is pretty good, especially on high movement. The stat weights basically haven't changed. Its still 12k Haste, 4k crit and then mastery. SL is still the preferred talent.

    My guess is this all comes out of the nerf to AS insanity gen and the buff to EVERY other form of it. That, coupled with the nerf to S2M, just pushes AS further down the totem pole. Basically, nothing except our dmg has changed and we'll see how that is in actual scenarios but it should still be good.

    Oh, an 4p makes mastery better.
    Last edited by Onikaroshi; 2017-01-16 at 09:27 PM.

  12. #12
    How are the sims loo king with the nerfs ? How much dmg have we lost with this useless and senseless nerf
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minka View Post
    How are the sims loo king with the nerfs ? How much dmg have we lost with this useless and senseless nerf
    It's not exactly senseless. When I can sustain 320k on 3 targets at ilevel 820 with an ilevel 800 weapon, thats pretty silly.
    It'd be nice if they could nerf us without making low geared shadow feel awful on single target though

  14. #14
    I dont understand the stat weights. (7.1.5 w/ hotfix)

    Currently its something like
    Int = 1
    1.3 mastery
    1.2 haste
    1.1 crit
    0.9 verse

    With note to stay around 13500 haste

    So mastery is quite valuable..

    But mastery wasnt valued this highly last week, before the nerf (which hurt our dots the most)

    So even though the base damage of our dots was nerfed, value in mastery went up?

    Are these new stat weights wrong? or have we been using the wrong stat weights all along?

    You cant trust H2P.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tiptopmemer View Post
    I dont understand the stat weights. (7.1.5 w/ hotfix)

    Currently its something like
    Int = 1
    1.3 mastery
    1.2 haste
    1.1 crit
    0.9 verse

    With note to stay around 13500 haste

    So mastery is quite valuable..

    But mastery wasnt valued this highly last week, before the nerf (which hurt our dots the most)

    So even though the base damage of our dots was nerfed, value in mastery went up?

    Are these new stat weights wrong? or have we been using the wrong stat weights all along?

    You cant trust H2P.
    Don't know what stats you were looking at, but I still have the old pawn string prehotfix. Mastery was the most important stat if you picked SL and it went down by 0.01.

  16. #16
    If you don't trust H2p, you certainly shouldn't trust anything on this site.

  17. #17
    Nerfs to spells affect intellect more than secondary stats. This is why our scaling is fucked: intellect is not worth very much for us, and has not been for most of the expansion.

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