Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Xvolte]

Is there anything out there that tells how good anticipation is with the subtlety bracers? Also, does stat priority change at all? Do sims accurately measure DPS when you have the bracers?

[Blayke]

I performed better with anticipation when i was testing during farm this week. didn't waste any CP or shadow tech procs - SB and shadow tech is where anticipation really shines for us, using anticipation now i notice just how often shadow tech is proccing and it's crazy.

Now if i could get the bracers i'd be a happy camper

Im hesitant to trust the sims on this atm.

According to Shadowcraft it was a 22k dps loss, and that's with the bracers. Otoh, it just feels so much smoother. Lots of cp generation, lots of finishers, lots of Deep Shadows applications. I'm assuming the reason we haven't been doing it this way all along is because of the now nerfed 10% finisher buff we got from DS.
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I looted two shadow techniques 890 relics last night, wondering if they'll actually be useful with the anticipation build and the 4 piece set bonus

I'd have to drop a nightblade 5% and a shadowstrike damage 5% - but both of those are 870 relics



gonna keep the one energetic stabbing that i have (have had terrible luck getting them)

Stjern updated his relic sim here: http://roguedpsguide.com/rogue-legion-wow-relics-pve/. Not much different from the old one, but I'm kinda surprised that Soul Shadows isn't on the list, given how important SB is going to be to sub, especially if we have the bracers. Also would think Precision Strikes would be a good one to have as well.

[elfporn]

According to Shadowcraft it was a 22k dps loss, and that's with the bracers. Otoh, it just feels so much smoother. Lots of cp generation, lots of finishers, lots of Deep Shadows applications. I'm assuming the reason we haven't been doing it this way all along is because of the now nerfed 10% finisher buff we got from DS. Also would think Precision Strikes would be a good one to have as well.

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Stjern updated his relic sim here: http://roguedpsguide.com/rogue-legion-wow-relics-pve/. Not much different from the old one, but I'm kinda surprised that Soul Shadows isn't on the list, given how important SB is going to be to sub, especially if we have the bracers.

afaik you shouldn't be using shadowcraft atm, simcraft and especially AMR are much more accurate, and will get more accurate with more logs to compare to.

You're right that it feels much better. But the reason we weren't using anticipation before was because it was just 8cp instead of 10, in addition to the 10% dmg on finishers from DS. Just 8CP for pooling/overflow wasn't near enough to compete with either vigor or DS.

And i'm surprised stjern has updated his relic guide when we don't have solid sims and logs to back them up. I would take that with a grain of salt until it's updated again.

[Blayke]

afaik you shouldn't be using shadowcraft atm, simcraft and especially AMR are much more accurate, and will get more accurate with more logs to compare to.

You're right that it feels much better. But the reason we weren't using anticipation before was because it was just 8cp instead of 10, in addition to the 10% dmg on finishers from DS. Just 8CP for pooling/overflow wasn't near enough to compete with either vigor or DS.

And i'm surprised stjern has updated his relic guide when we don't have solid sims and logs to back them up. I would take that with a grain of salt until it's updated again.

I actually emailed the Shadowcraft people on the 13th and got a very prompt response:

"The sub model should be in a fairly good spot right now, but the sin model is still being actively worked on. I was hoping to have a version to deploy this week but it got pushed off for various real-life things. The outlaw model is still a mess and there's no ETA on when it'll be ready."

Translation: We feel good about Sub, we're optimistic about Sin, and we're as lost as you guys on Outlaw.

I always liked ShadowC over AMR because it dynamically updated the stat weights. I know you can plug in your own stat weights into amr, but if you have to use another simulator to generate them then I don't see the point.

Still not sold on Weaponmaster tho. Ran through a bunch of lfr bosses (yeah, i know) and what i keep getting is about 7-9 procs per boss accounting for about 1.5% of my damage. The few extra combo points i seem to be getting doesn't seem worth giving up the extra 10% damage, especially where, with the anticipation build, I'll be spending more time in Shadow Step.

[elfporn]

I actually emailed the Shadowcraft people on the 13th and got a very prompt response:

"The sub model should be in a fairly good spot right now, but the sin model is still being actively worked on. I was hoping to have a version to deploy this week but it got pushed off for various real-life things. The outlaw model is still a mess and there's no ETA on when it'll be ready."

Translation: We feel good about Sub, we're optimistic about Sin, and we're as lost as you guys on Outlaw.

I always liked ShadowC over AMR because it dynamically updated the stat weights. I know you can plug in your own stat weights into amr, but if you have to use another simulator to generate them then I don't see the point.

Still not sold on Weaponmaster tho. Ran through a bunch of lfr bosses (yeah, i know) and what i keep getting is about 7-9 procs per boss accounting for about 1.5% of my damage. The few extra combo points i seem to be getting doesn't seem worth giving up the extra 10% damage, especially where, with the anticipation build, I'll be spending more time in Shadow Step.

It sounds like you havnt used amr since well before legion launched, or if you have, you didn't follow the tutorial.

The entire AMR platform was completely rebuilt for legion with collaboration from the simcraft people - Right now amr is more accurate than simcraft, but takes a lot longer to run (the downside of being more accurate).

You don't plug your own stat weights into AMR, you customize the sim, run a gearing strategy - it takes 30+ minutes normally; you get your weights from that. Then you do a single run sim and customize/alter as needed to see differences in talents, relics, etc.

Lastly, weaponmaster is better than Master of Sub, not because of the damage (it is significant), but because of the additional resources gained. It's also worth noting that the "weaponmaster" damage you see in your damagemeter is from nightblade ticks only; weaponmaster procs from all other abilities are rolled into the damage for those abilities. With anticipation WM is even stronger because of fewer wasted resources, far ahead of MoSub.

Pay close attention to Zoopercat's various responses around here (or even look them up). He's the AMR rep.

[Blayke]

It sounds like you havnt used amr since well before legion launched, or if you have, you didn't follow the tutorial.

The entire AMR platform was completely rebuilt for legion with collaboration from the simcraft people - Right now amr is more accurate than simcraft, but takes a lot longer to run (the downside of being more accurate).

You don't plug your own stat weights into AMR, you customize the sim, run a gearing strategy - it takes 30+ minutes normally; you get your weights from that. Then you do a single run sim and customize/alter as needed to see differences in talents, relics, etc.

Lastly, weaponmaster is better than Master of Sub, not because of the damage (it is significant), but because of the additional resources gained. It's also worth noting that the "weaponmaster" damage you see in your damagemeter is from nightblade ticks only; weaponmaster procs from all other abilities are rolled into the damage for those abilities. With anticipation WM is even stronger because of fewer wasted resources, far ahead of MoSub.

Pay close attention to Zoopercat's various responses around here (or even look them up). He's the AMR rep.

This is why I quote your posts. Thanks for the helpful advice.

[Zoopercat]

@Blayke like elfporn mentioned, you can run your own stat weights on AMR. Here's a picture tutorial of how to do that: http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

You can still edit weights on AMR to be anything you want, but we recommend getting a custom sim. Lastly, if you're feeling brave, we also have a new method that beats stat weights (in theory, it's still in beta and might have some tweaks that are needed, you know how betas go). Here's a blog post about our new 'machine learning' method: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/machine-learning/

[elfporn]

Hmm, how to insert SoD use at 5sec till pull and pre-pot into the APL for AMR? i'm uncertain on this.

I did notice that the default was using SoD right on the pull and then arcane torrent, then goremaws->SS->nb

I personally do SoD@-5sec, prepot@-1, and then SB@0, then SS->SS->NB->dance rotation.

I save goremaw till the last 2 sec of SB, and vanish after that to generate dance charges. and afterward use goremaws and vanish on cd to help generate charges.

i'd like to know how to put in the pre-pull setup, i think i might be able to alter the rest, maybe

off-class-topic:

Did some simming for an unholy DK (Rixin-Aggamaggan) for a Hursoc default sim and he was getting results that were waaaaaaaaaaay off, he pulled ~440k in the sim, which is about 90k lower than this week's logs - 488k Hursoc(no pots/flasks) and 530k Mursoc

The AMR results are way off for him

[Zoopercat]

@elfporn I found that character on WCL and ran some tests. You are right, it is low after the patch, by quite a bit. I found a couple specific high-use spells that missed some buffs. We'll get that fixed up tomorrow. I also think we need a slight tweak in the rotation to use festering wound more, which we should be able to update in the next few days. Thanks for hitting me up on that, VERY helpful!

For the pre-fight stuff, see at the top of the rotation page, before the spell lists... there is some orangey/brown text next to 'included rotations' ? You want the AmrRogueSubtletyPreFight one, which you can also find here: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...y&version=live

To edit any of these, click the 'clone' link on the left, under the 2 drop down menus. Once you do that, an edit button shows up at the top of any rotation or spell page.

It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on what to do to edit the rotation, but here's a 5:42 video where I quickly go over the setup and things we have in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVBF44vXvM

[Celfydd]

Pay close attention to Zoopercat's various responses around here (or even look them up). He's the AMR rep.

She.

/10char

[Elyzibeth]

@elfporn
Thanks for the posts on the anticipation talent choice and how it's working for you. I had never tried it and it really made the spec feel a lot smoother. My dps is still a fair bit lower than my assassin spec, but what do you expect when you have 5% more damage in AP, and assassin bracers. It made me feel good enough about Sub to swap my loot specialization to sub. and try for the sub bracers or boots. The rotation to me still feels clunky and without good Energetic procs I'm missing a lot of the 4th SS's in my dances.

Is there a guide somewhere that you would recommend reading over for raid style dps after all of these changes etc. Or would you mind listing out a few key things in this thread to focus on. IE: best usage of shadowblades, best use of goremaw's bite, maybe opening rotation?

I have the shoulders and cloak combo and I feel like I could possibly perform better as subtlety in m+ over my assassin spec with the awesome shuriken storm damage provided from those legends. I just need to get my boss damage up.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

[Deleted]

I've used vigor and anticipation instead of DS. Both of my dummy fights always end with less dps. Yes, rotation is smoother and I am able to pull better shadow charges, but in the end 6point eviscerate rends it all for me I guess.

[Diyiez]

I hate how clunky the gameplay feels with the boots nerf. They should have baked in the boots effect into shadowstrike and reworked the boots.
Anyone had luck with the weekly nighthold cache? Some friends got tiers and whatnot, i got a lousy 870 shadowblades relic.

[Zoopercat]

@elfporn (diff class update). In tonight's update, we'll have that DK stuff fixed, found a missing dmg multiplier. Also, I forgot about your log being mythic, which has some AoE in it, which accounts for the rest of the dmg. We'll have H and M options for some of the nighthold bosses so you can compare those.

[elfporn]

@elfporn
Thanks for the posts on the anticipation talent choice and how it's working for you. I had never tried it and it really made the spec feel a lot smoother. My dps is still a fair bit lower than my assassin spec, but what do you expect when you have 5% more damage in AP, and assassin bracers. It made me feel good enough about Sub to swap my loot specialization to sub. and try for the sub bracers or boots. The rotation to me still feels clunky and without good Energetic procs I'm missing a lot of the 4th SS's in my dances.

Is there a guide somewhere that you would recommend reading over for raid style dps after all of these changes etc. Or would you mind listing out a few key things in this thread to focus on. IE: best usage of shadowblades, best use of goremaw's bite, maybe opening rotation?

I have the shoulders and cloak combo and I feel like I could possibly perform better as subtlety in m+ over my assassin spec with the awesome shuriken storm damage provided from those legends. I just need to get my boss damage up.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Don't stress out if you don't get that 4th SS.

Pool to 70 energy before using SD; 75 if you have the energy neck from arcway; 65 if you have the boots.
have a combo point or two before using SD (even with anticipation)

Goremaw and vanish should be used to generate SD charges, though with the shoulders/cloak you may want to strategically use vanish with full cloak stacks and 10cp to dump (pool to 70+) You likely could fit in SStorm+2 evisc and a full dance if the duration is what i think it is.

During SB, use goremaw right before it ends for that extra cp. An easy rule to follow during SB is to keep rolling dances, build to 8/9cp, dump, build, dump. Don't worry too much if you slip in a backstab. You should be able to get 3 finishers per dance use, roughly, if you don't, then make up for it after SB with goremaw/vanish uses to generate charges.

Opener is SoD@5sec till pull, SB on pull, SS, SS nb, then dance rotation. If you want to use goremaws earlier than i recommended above, do so between dances, not during.

It takes practice to get the feel of the rotation. You should never be more than 1 finisher(+ a few seconds) from a dance charge. If you run out and have more than 20sec on the cd, you messed up somewhere.

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I've used vigor and anticipation instead of DS. Both of my dummy fights always end with less dps. Yes, rotation is smoother and I am able to pull better shadow charges, but in the end 6point eviscerate rends it all for me I guess.

With the 4p bonus (not to mention convergence of fates and/or bracers) anticipation is ahead.

With none of that stuff i am about the same as with DS.

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@elfporn (diff class update). In tonight's update, we'll have that DK stuff fixed, found a missing dmg multiplier. Also, I forgot about your log being mythic, which has some AoE in it, which accounts for the rest of the dmg. We'll have H and M options for some of the nighthold bosses so you can compare those.

Thanks zooper, glad i caught that. And it will definitely be nice to have mythic options for simming too. (and thanks for the apl tips)

[Blayke]

@elfporn
Thanks for the posts on the anticipation talent choice and how it's working for you. I had never tried it and it really made the spec feel a lot smoother. .

It actually feels a little bit like our rotation did in WoD. Not exactly the same, of course, but the ability to spam the cp builder without having to worry about wasting cp's makes it feel a lot smoother. SS>SS>finisher>SS SS always felt so clunky. As elf pointed out, once you get on a roll you can almost use a finisher every other attack.

[elfporn]

Heh i just got an 880 Draught of Souls from the nighborn cache.....haste no agi, ill play with it but it better be awesome to replace bti

[eil]

Heh i just got an 880 Draught of Souls from the nighborn cache.....haste no agi, ill play with it but it better be awesome to replace bti

My wind walker friend I was running timewalking with got a 890-socketed Nightblooming Frond. Speaking of which, do we have any hard numbers around that trinket? Mr Robot has it leagues above everything else but Stjern's guide has it considerably lower--not to mention it didn't feel that amazing on the PTR.

Just curious if anyone has been able to test it.

[elfporn]

My wind walker friend I was running timewalking with got a 890-socketed Nightblooming Frond. Speaking of which, do we have any hard numbers around that trinket? Mr Robot has it leagues above everything else but Stjern's guide has it considerably lower--not to mention it didn't feel that amazing on the PTR.

Just curious if anyone has been able to test it.

it looks like ppm trinkets are severely bugged atm.

[Diyiez]

Got lucky with the rolls and i got a 880 tier cape with a socket and a 875 spaulders with a socket, so that means 2 set bonus now with 3 bosses left to kill (normal). Bonus feels pretty good, it's so nice being able to DoT a lot more trash and that extra points dumped into eviscerate are pretty decent as well. Hopefully tomorrow a CoF will drop and everything will be right in the world. How you guys doing?