Are Mythic+ changing tomorrow?

[yarafx1]

Imo this balances it out:
raid: high base ilvl, requires large group and lots of co-ordination, penalty for dying is waste of resources and time. Someone screws up repeatedly? You replace him/her.
mythic+: low base ilvl, requires small group and decent co-ordination, but penalty for dying is less loot if it happens too much. Someone screws up repeatedly? Tough luck.

Doesn't sound like you've done any high level Mythic +'s based on the none chatelaines of this you've probably not done past a 9. Try a 12 or 14 or a 16. Then tell me the content isn't worth the loot.

[netherflame]

LB relics are overrated. 3ilvl on a relic are already equal to a LB trait, regardless of said relics trait. Thus you'll always use the highest ilvl relic, regardless of the trait.
Farming m+ in hope for a 910 LB relic to replace a 910 Earth Shock relic is a complete waste of time for that matter as we're talking about a >1% dps difference.

I mean if you are pushing progression the difference can be up to 2.16% which is nice. Just sucks that the raid is sub-optimal in all cases for relics, maybe once we get into it the relics are really just a hint that we should be running lightning rod for sustained aoe and not ascendance or icefury for singletarget.

[Myztikrice]

Doesn't sound like you've done any high level Mythic +'s based on the none chatelaines of this you've probably not done past a 9. Try a 12 or 14 or a 16. Then tell me the content isn't worth the loot.

Gear the same ilvl as heroic EN is not worth the loot.

[jaakkeli]

Doesn't sound like you've done any high level Mythic +'s based on the none chatelaines of this you've probably not done past a 9. Try a 12 or 14 or a 16. Then tell me the content isn't worth the loot.

12, 14 and 16 drop essentially the same loot as a 9 or heroic EN which are trivial content compared to 10+ mythic keystones. Outside of the weekly chests 10+ mythics are not worth doing at all unless you're running with people you know to be good enough to get multiple chests.

For loot farming spamming 3 chested +9 is optimal by far as fishing for a titanforge is far better than pushing your keystones higher. That's why when you open the dungeon tab for the faster mythics you see dozens and dozens of boost groups running up to 9 and almost none running anything higher than that.

[Deleted]

People don't realize that the M+ reward is more or less the chest, not the dungeon loot itself.

That's 1 item a week, which is most likely a cloak/neck/ring, because every freaking boss has like 3 of them each.
This already applies to people who don't even raid Mythic, but HCs.

A DK friend of mine looted 6 cloaks in a row from said chest and he got the cloak legendary. Imagine him as "Comfy Guy",not with a checkered blanket, but cloaks wrapped around him instead.

Saying bullshit like "you shouldn't get X outside of Mythic raids" is just stupid, the "I need to do M+ to raid mythics" hyperbole is really stupid.
Especially when the average effort you invest in M+ to get a titanforged/warforged item that is on par with a HC/Mythic raid item is like 20 times higher due to the time you have to invest.

[Tharkkun]

Yes, firstly raiders shouldn't have to grind an absurd amount of m+ to min max. A large amount of top raiders have several pieces of m+ gear equipped. You shouldn't be able to get gear that's competitive with raid drops from dungeons. I'm sure the people who don't have time to raid and merely do a few m+ a week would be more than happy with 'just' getting heroic equivalent gear, or something there around.



Regardless, the gear from m+ is OP in relation to the effort it takes to obtain it. If you're a casual raider it should take you significantly longer to get fully geared compared to someone who's in a guild doing 5 split runs and raiding 12-16h/day.

Raiders don't have to clear anything. It's your choice. If you're in the top 10 race and not clearing Mythic+'s then you'd be doing 10 split raids a week with alts instead. Don't want to compete in killing bosses in less than week? Don't do it.

[Deleted]

max goes up to 925 titanforged today in US tomorrow EU.

sadly they are not increasing the base ilvl of items in higher mythics+.

[Deleted]

There's too much ambiguity in making a statement such as this. The level of effort for a mythic EN compared to a mythic 2+ is obviously higher, but when it comes to a mythic 15+ I would contend that it can be much more difficult than most of the bosses in Mythic EN. If you don't specify the level of difficulty for mythic raids and mythic+ then we're left to assume what the comparison is, and every individual will naturally assign their own inferences based on their own biases.

Pre-Nighthold the Mythic 10+ chests would drop 865 which is the same base ilvl as Heroic EN. I would contend that to clear a 10+ at lower than 865 ilvl is extremely challenging, probably more challenging than clearing H EN at lower than 865 ilvl, and therefore the mythic+ rewards seem slightly on the low side. Essentially what Im saying is that Heroic EN is a fair bit easier than a mythic 10+, and therefore the rewards seem slightly skewed to raids.

EN is one, if not the easiest intro raid ever. Raids have a lockout, m+ don't, hence the spam and ilvl inflation, which is why they should cap the ilvl of the gear at a lower level OR cap the amount of m+ you can do per week, adding some kind of down-scaling to the gear you have equipped relative to the level of the m+ might also be an idea. One major reason for EN being steamrolled so easily was the availability of m+ gear.

The 'fact' still remains that you have a huge amount of players who weren't even able to clear HFC Mythic with their guild despite having roughly one year to do so with nerfs and additional tools such as more advanced addons. These people are now with ease doing 12+ every week and they're no better at the game than they were in WoD. The remaining raids are bound to be significantly more difficult than EN, most likely taking a minimum of 2-4 mythic resets for hardcore world top guilds to clear them. If they scale the m+ gear so that below average players are able to obtain mythic raid equivalents it'll be a fucking joke.

[iperson]

Yes, firstly raiders shouldn't have to grind an absurd amount of m+ to min max. A large amount of top raiders have several pieces of m+ gear equipped. You shouldn't be able to get gear that's competitive with raid drops from dungeons. I'm sure the people who don't have time to raid and merely do a few m+ a week would be more than happy with 'just' getting heroic equivalent gear, or something there around.



Regardless, the gear from m+ is OP in relation to the effort it takes to obtain it. If you're a casual raider it should take you significantly longer to get fully geared compared to someone who's in a guild doing 5 split runs and raiding 12-16h/day.

What's funny is you don't see where you contradict yourself. You point out that it would take an absurd amount of time in m+ to be better geared than you can get in mythic raiding while in the same breath say the effort it takes to obtain it is low. Which is it? M+ gear is too easy to get, or M+ is too difficult?

[Deleted]

What's funny is you don't see where you contradict yourself. You point out that it would take an absurd amount of time in m+ to be better geared than you can get in mythic raiding while in the same breath say the effort it takes to obtain it is low. Which is it? M+ gear is too easy to get, or M+ is too difficult?

No, I'm saying that you might have to spend an absurd amount of time to min max, i.e. grinding for a TF trinket, not to obtain mythic raid equivalent(ish) gear, which can be done fairly easily. The main issue is the latter.

[iperson]

No, I'm saying that you might have to spend an absurd amount of time to min max, i.e. grinding for a TF trinket, not to obtain mythic raid equivalent(ish) gear, which can be done fairly easily. The main issue is the latter.

Got it. "Casuals are getting good gear and I don't like it."

[Deleted]

The main issue is that m+ is limitless and raiding is capped. You cannot offer equal ilvl gear im spammable content.

[Malkiah]

The main issue is that m+ is limitless and raiding is capped. You cannot offer equal ilvl gear im spammable content.

why not?

coming from the perspective of a non-raider, M+ dungeon runs look like this:
if you just fart around in dungeons and LFR and WQs you can cobble together a group of people of similar ilevel and probably 2 or maybe sometimes 3 (if you're lucky) chest a key up to about level 5.
having a consistent chance of even beating +6 or higher basically requires the gear (and assumption of moderately higher skill) of a raider carry group.

now, if the only way to get raid quality gear from an M+ is to have raid geared people running the M+, then where exactly is the problem?
the teeming masses (such as myself) end up picking up some higher ilevel gear here and there if we get very lucky on having a sequence of easy keys, and the raiders have content that is moderately difficult where they have a small chance to get an upgrade.

if you don't like bringing us filthy casuals into the equation, then don't run M+ dungeons outside of your guild.
i don't see how it's my fault or your problem if other people want to be bothered dealing with carries, and i don't see how it's any different from carries through a raid, except that from the perspective of the raiders it's less of a time and effort investment being foisted on a fewer number of people.

[Kayzza]

The limitless spamming of mythic+s would be fine if they wouldve never implemented 54 traits bs. Now NH is getting balanced around that, while it could've been balanced around full artifact weps (without +x%dmg cause of mindless farming ap) + ppl spamming for better warforged/titanforged gear.

[Deleted]

why not?

coming from the perspective of a non-raider, M+ dungeon runs look like this:
if you just fart around in dungeons and LFR and WQs you can cobble together a group of people of similar ilevel and probably 2 or maybe sometimes 3 (if you're lucky) chest a key up to about level 5.
having a consistent chance of even beating +6 or higher basically requires the gear (and assumption of moderately higher skill) of a raider carry group.

now, if the only way to get raid quality gear from an M+ is to have raid geared people running the M+, then where exactly is the problem?
the teeming masses (such as myself) end up picking up some higher ilevel gear here and there if we get very lucky on having a sequence of easy keys, and the raiders have content that is moderately difficult where they have a small chance to get an upgrade.

if you don't like bringing us filthy casuals into the equation, then don't run M+ dungeons outside of your guild.
i don't see how it's my fault or your problem if other people want to be bothered dealing with carries, and i don't see how it's any difference from carries through a raid, except that from the perspective of the raiders it's less of a time and effort investment being foisted on a fewer number of people.

Its not to prevent casuals from good gear, its to prevent hardcores from abusing this system or rather to be forced as an raider to be forced to run over and over the same dungeons to be competitive.

[Malkiah]

Its not to prevent casuals from good gear, its to prevent hardcores from abusing this system or rather to be forced as an raider to be forced to run over and over the same dungeons to be competitive.

but that leads to the question of 'what exactly is competitive'?

i'll admit up front to possibly lacking the proper context to understand the problem since i don't raid (though i have in the past, and in a context far more demanding and vastly more punishing than wow... if you think this game forces you into grinding content to stay competitive, try high end raiding in EQ), but it seems to me that unless there's this epidemic of people being benched in raids for not having enough traits or for being 3 item levels lower than someone else waiting in the wings, it's largely an imaginary problem.

it seems like a lot of people need to seriously re-calibrate their expectations and accept that being good enough is good enough, and stop obsessively viewing EVERYTHING through the lens of the maximal possible variable for every situation.

[Bigbazz]

Regarding Mythic + farming for AP/competitiveness.

It is annoying that to be competitive you have to run a billion Mythic + dungeons. A lot of people only play to raid, those people are actually probably just approaching 35 points or have just past that point, we have a few people without 35 points in our raid group at 7/7m 1/3m. Yes it is a casual mythic guild no questions, but some of those guys have been ilvl 880+ for 2 months and are still 14% weaker purely because of a difference in time spent grinding trivial content.

How do you balance around this? Are the raids balanced as part of a system where players are expected to spend the majority of their time pushing through dungeons? Or is raiding meant to stand on its own? Currently raiding doesn't stand on its own, people who have had the same playing habbits from prior expansions of using their time to raid exclusively are not playing on the same field as those who run dungeons, they are effectively (at this point if they are around 34-36 say) playing a harder version of the game.

If artifact traits (35-54) were removed casual Mythic raiding guilds by and large would be on almost equal footing with everyone at the top in terms of the character power entering the raid, and it would truly be nice to see what happens when everyone enters the raid on relatively equal footing gear wise.

[Malkiah]

A lot of people only play to raid, those people are actually probably just approaching 35 points or have just past that point, we have a few people without 35 points in our raid group at 7/7m 1/3m. Yes it is a casual mythic guild no questions, but some of those guys have been ilvl 880+ for 2 months and are still 14% weaker purely because of a difference in time spent grinding trivial content.

that seems like laziness to me (or people who just don't have the time to play and maybe those people shouldn't be in mythic raid guilds, casual or not), because i have 36-37 points on 9 different weapons across 5 toons, and i don't grind M+ at all.

i know the whole "well i did it so everyone should be able to" argument is a load of crap so i'm not trying to make it, i'm just saying... as of today, you don't need to be have been grinding M+ to have a weapon with 35+ traits.

How do you balance around this?

how do you balance around player X having a higher ilevel weapon than player Y? or having a better trinket? or having proper enchants and gems vs not?
that is something that has been a facet of the game since its inception, the only difference now is that equalizing gear isn't as simple as being present and lucky for the right thing to drop and to be the one who gets it.

Are the raids balanced as part of a system where players are expected to spend the majority of their time pushing through dungeons? Or is raiding meant to stand on its own? Currently raiding doesn't stand on its own, people who have had the same playing habbits from prior expansions of using their time to raid exclusively are not playing on the same field as those who run dungeons, they are effectively (at this point if they are around 34-36 say) playing a harder version of the game.

and is that implicitly a negative?
is there really some kind of qualitative difference between 35 traits vs. 40 traits as compared to having shadowmourne vs. 10m citadel enforcer's claymore, in terms of "one person has a thing that makes them more powerful than a person without it"?

i'm not arguing that having more traits is clearly superior to having less traits, i'm just questioning how that disparity is any way different from disparities that have always existed.

If artifact traits (35-54) were removed casual Mythic raiding guilds by and large would be on almost equal footing with everyone at the top in terms of the character power entering the raid, and it would truly be nice to see what happens when everyone enters the raid on relatively equal footing gear wise.

there's no reason to wonder, because the same thing would happen then that has happened for the last 9 years: the community would have some vague zeitgeist about what i thinks are the best class/spec for a given role and recruit heavily towards that, and people playing the "lesser than" classes and roles would maybe switch, or maybe be left alone to continue doing as best they can and raiding anyways.

i'm not seeing the existence of traits causing any kind of schism in game, but if i'm wrong about that please feel free to correct me.

[jaakkeli]

coming from the perspective of a non-raider, M+ dungeon runs look like this:
if you just fart around in dungeons and LFR and WQs you can cobble together a group of people of similar ilevel and probably 2 or maybe sometimes 3 (if you're lucky) chest a key up to about level 5.
having a consistent chance of even beating +6 or higher basically requires the gear (and assumption of moderately higher skill) of a raider carry group.

Nonsense. I'm a non-raider with mythic up to level 15 completed in time with non-mythic-raider friends. The only raid I've done this expansion was EN normal once, then EN hc once for the achievements. I have no gear from raids but I still have 883 equipped, 890 bags item level on my mage. We completed +6s in time before anyone in the world had even killed a mythic raid boss and we've been running boost groups, 3 chesting just fine without mythic raid gear.

It's much slower and more random than getting gear from raids but by now mythic+ dungeons have been out for so long that just doing one relatively high level per week should have gotten you pretty nicely geared.

What we are seeing here is just the usual WoW habit of using "casual" and "non-raider" as euphemisms for "bads".

[yamilonewolf]

It's supposed to be "Parallel Progression" meaning you don't need to raid or pvp to get the high end gear. So it should receive a bump.