Breath Frost build vs Clawing Shadows Unholy in 7.1.5

[DagrDK]

[QUOTE=klanker5;44211320]

Forgive me for being ignorant, but he's referring to the damage per gcd potential of Frost vs. Unholy. Your comparison of 1 Oblit to 1 Apoc is not apples to apples.

[Schizoide]

Right, he was talking about burst damage, not sustained DPS.

[Deleted]

Forgive me for being ignorant, but he's referring to the damage per gcd potential of Frost vs. Unholy. Your comparison of 1 Oblit to 1 Apoc is not apples to apples.

Comparing the burst potential of a class with ONE gcd and not the proc or debuff it puts on the target is pretty useless, considering unholy does alot of its dmg through multiple gcds (Wounds), but apples shall i try to compare :

Of the 2 logs that i posted in my previous response :
-Average Obliterate was 415k with 45% chance of procing Howling Blast which dealt on average 895k, so around 403k, the total comes to around 800k with "average' RNG.

-Average Festering Strike was 391k with 2-4 Wounds applied on the target, i'll take 2 to make it easy, 1 wound is a potential 214k, 391+214*2 = 819k

Saying frost is a burst spec because ONE obliterate deals more dmg than ONE other ablity of unholy is pretty fucking dumb, also even taking in just the initial blow it's still 415 vs 391 which isn't exactly an big difference.

[Schizoide]

Comparing the burst potential of a class with ONE gcd and not the proc or debuff it puts on the target is pretty useless,

It isn't useless in PvP, where burst matters. If you want to compare 2-3 GCDs that counts as burst too.

[DagrDK]

Comparing the burst potential of a class with ONE gcd and not the proc or debuff it puts on the target is pretty useless, considering

I just want to preface that I like both specs and I am in no way arguing your logic. It seems like the forums here have become hotly contested lately. We're on the same side

That being said, I merely stated that comparing a fully wound(ed) up Apoc to one Oblit is not a fair comparo. The two specs are wholly different. Yes, 1 FeS can do the same damage as an Oblit + Rime proc, but the difference is how Frost is able to load those abilities into a small window where Unholy is not. If I have a priority add that needs to be blown up, I can pop Obliteration and deal a good bit of damage to that target in a few short global's, whereas UH needs a *small* amount of setup time. I like both specs and the niche's they each have, but the way they deal damage is just spread differently. To be honest, I'm not even sure what the initial topic was

[Deleted]

That being said, I merely stated that comparing a fully wound(ed) up Apoc to one Oblit is not a fair comparo. The two specs are wholly different. Yes, 1 FeS can do the same damage as an Oblit + Rime proc, but the difference is how Frost is able to load those abilities into a small window where Unholy is not. If I have a priority add that needs to be blown up, I can pop Obliteration and deal a good bit of damage to that target in a few short global's, whereas UH needs a *small* amount of setup time. I like both specs and the niche's they each have, but the way they deal damage is just spread differently. To be honest, I'm not even sure what the initial topic was

I can respect that.

[Yhcti]

I don't mean to derail but ive just hit 110 on ny dk and put 20 into frost. What I'm wondering is, before I get my first leggie, should I stick out frost or go unholy for tier ? Also.. How do we compare with the other plate classes? Seems like ret is king atm, is that the case or is ret only king on single target fights? Gotta say I love fury but 5min CD is killer haha

[Amalkatrazz]

I don't mean to derail but ive just hit 110 on ny dk and put 20 into frost. What I'm wondering is, before I get my first leggie, should I stick out frost or go unholy for tier ? Also.. How do we compare with the other plate classes? Seems like ret is king atm, is that the case or is ret only king on single target fights? Gotta say I love fury but 5min CD is killer haha

Rets truly top the meters these days (nerfed in the latest hotfix, but not substantially); the 12% overall damage buff Blizz gave them to set off the Blessing of Might they lost was a bit too much. Warriors, I believe, are slightly below both UH and Frost.

Now, speaking of which spec to choose, Unholy is going to be stronger than Frost provided that both have BiS NH gear; but the difference is hardly going to be decisive, probably within 5 or 10 percent. As you are a beginner, I'd recommend frost because it is much easier to master (and requires less complex UI setup) while still offering good burst, sustained and AE damage (if you go for the emerging BoS-GS build. MG, while it is generally easier and less punishing, is weaker in terms of burst damage). One good thing about Frost is that it doesn't take legendaries to deal substantial damage, while the UH bracers are still the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost of UH gear.

[Deleted]

One good thing about Frost is that it doesn't take legendaries to deal substantial damage, while the UH bracers are still the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost of UH gear.

The frost belt is actually much better than any UH legendary out there. Its literally almost 10% dps with a BoS build.

[Yhcti]

Awesome reply thanks a bunch I am enjoying frost, but my main focus is mythic+, I don't raid a huuuuge amount. Is frost still the absolute go to for that? I assume fsc mg beats out bos for M+ and I assume it beats unholy also..?

[Cerunnir]

Awesome reply thanks a bunch I am enjoying frost, but my main focus is mythic+, I don't raid a huuuuge amount. Is frost still the absolute go to for that? I assume fsc mg beats out bos for M+ and I assume it beats unholy also..?

Unholy does quite a bit more AOE damage than frost, but im lacking the stun utility.

Seriously, Unholy AOE is extremly strong.

[Nayami]

Unholy does quite a bit more AOE damage than frost, but im lacking the stun utility.

Seriously, Unholy AOE is extremly strong.

Played some dungeons this week as Unholy and I feel your pain. An AoE Asphyxiate would be very much welcome. Can't let Nazgrim have all the fun!

[Amalkatrazz]

Belt is a lot of RNG first, and second, as Magdalena stated in his longread, BoS is about being bursty rather than sustaining Breath for long periods of time (this is welcome but not really necessary). As such, you can be a decent DPS player as Frost without any legendaries; that doesn't apply to Unholy.

[Yhcti]

Unholy does quite a bit more AOE damage than frost, but im lacking the stun utility.

Seriously, Unholy AOE is extremly strong.

oh really? what about ST? at the moment I see Frost dominating... I just want a strong all rounder tbh... considering ret big time atm buuuut loving frost, unholy looks sick but im not getting the hang of it atm!

[Deleted]

oh really? what about ST? at the moment I see Frost dominating... I just want a strong all rounder tbh... considering ret big time atm buuuut loving frost, unholy looks sick but im not getting the hang of it atm!

Ive not exactly seen a lot of decently geared frost dks but unholy opening peak burst seems very very high at the moment. And i only have one dps legendary.

[Cerunnir]

oh really? what about ST? at the moment I see Frost dominating... I just want a strong all rounder tbh... considering ret big time atm buuuut loving frost, unholy looks sick but im not getting the hang of it atm!

My impression having just swapped from frost, is that:

UH is a slight tad weaker on sustained ST.
They burst higher ST.
Their AOE is significantly stronger, especially burst AoE.

[Schizoide]

Belt is a lot of RNG first, and second, as Magdalena stated in his longread, BoS is about being bursty rather than sustaining Breath for long periods of time (this is welcome but not really necessary).

I think that's a little bit deceptive; while you should sync up your cooldowns to make the best use of BoS, and don't need very high uptime to beat Obliteration on 1 or 2 targets, it is the best build and playstyle for sustained DPS on 1-2 targets too.

[Yhcti]

@Cerunnir and @Dkwhyevernot many thanks guys, i might take a look at unholy and see how i get on!

[Hugoboss]

For me its sad to see unholy in such a bad position even in raids.

oh really? what about ST? at the moment I see Frost dominating... I just want a strong all rounder tbh... considering ret big time atm buuuut loving frost, unholy looks sick but im not getting the hang of it atm!

Yes, raid just came out yesterday; yes, too few parses to have the whole picture, heroic doesn't matter, and most people have very few (if any) pieces from the new raid...

Having said that, you might wanna check the damage rankings for Nighthold - 75%, 90%, 99%...

I'd say that, assuming the rankings remain as they are for any appreciable amount of time, unholy players have little reason to complain.

[bubbadubba]

I don't mean to derail but ive just hit 110 on ny dk and put 20 into frost. What I'm wondering is, before I get my first leggie, should I stick out frost or go unholy for tier ? Also.. How do we compare with the other plate classes? Seems like ret is king atm, is that the case or is ret only king on single target fights? Gotta say I love fury but 5min CD is killer haha

Frost has good sustained/burst AoE, Unholy has crazy burst AoE. They are both close to eachother on single target so do what you prefer imo. The reason you would go one or the other would be because of legendaries you have.

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oh really? what about ST? at the moment I see Frost dominating... I just want a strong all rounder tbh... considering ret big time atm buuuut loving frost, unholy looks sick but im not getting the hang of it atm!

Unholy- burst AoE, good single target. Lots of medium to long cooldowns.

Frost- Sustained AoE, has burst potential, good single target. Pillar of frost is on a short cd which feels nice to have a cooldown like that.

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My impression having just swapped from frost, is that:

UH is a slight tad weaker on sustained ST.
They burst higher ST.
Their AOE is significantly stronger, especially burst AoE.

AoE is only stronger on burst. Frostscythe+Frozenpulse are both crazy AoE, due to this it also puts frost in a better cleave position due to it being sustained. You then have our god and savior... Sindy's fury. Mythic+ if you can get a big pull of AoE it is stupid dps. I have bursted 8m dps and went down to 6m once the fight was over because that ability is powerful.

So I wouldn't say that unholy is king compared to frost, they are both amazing AoE specs, I prefer frost because it is sustained but I also just got the unholy helm so I may see how that helps sustain a bit more AoE.