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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Do you understand the cost of cancer treatment? The treatment you paid for, prior to the ACA would be aggressively fought by the company you were paying premiums to, and your level of care would be capped. Basic treatments would cost 10's of thousands of dollars.

    Keep working, pay what you can, and stay the course? Holy shit...
    Did you understand when I said that pre-existing was the only reasonable thing the ACA did but as a whole it didn't tackle the looming issue which is the health insurance industry or malpractice industry?

  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Do you understand the cost of cancer treatment? The treatment you paid for, prior to the ACA would be aggressively fought by the company you were paying premiums to, and your level of care would be capped. Basic treatments would cost 10's of thousands of dollars.

    Keep working, pay what you can, and stay the course? Holy shit...
    Glad you asked. I dated a woman for about a year who at the age of 17 (she is now 27) fought and won a bought with cancer. She disclosed exactly how much it would of cost her without insurance (roughly almost half a mil) and was on the hook for roughly 20k if I remembered correctly. She now works and makes 25/hr with a 2 year degree.

    Sorry if you jump the ship when it starts to leak.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Balance billing is a thing, stop pretending that it's not.
    Sure it is but if you have ER coverage (Which most Healthcare plans DO) you are not paying 100%. Stop it.

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Yeah see you think you're being clever with that but you're not. I completely understand the topic. It's one of the perks of being able to comprehend scope and how free markets tend to work. Private schools have a competitive edge due to how their financial structures work. When you remove that, you remove the incentives to be the best and thus operate on much tighter budgeting. Hence, quality goes down. It's almost like the best and brightest tend to go after best and brightest pay.
    Free market principles don't apply tot he healthcare sector. This, again, is a bsic understanding. it was even explained earlier, briefly, as to why. Crying "free market!, free market!" doesn't have the impact you wish it does.

    If you actually understood free markets you'd understand why the healthcare industry is uniquely unqualified to be considered one.

  4. #1244
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Free market principles don't apply tot he healthcare sector. This, again, is a bsic understanding. it was even explained earlier, briefly, as to why. Crying "free market!, free market!" doesn't have the impact you wish it does.

    If you actually understood free markets you'd understand why the healthcare industry is uniquely unqualified to be considered one.
    Didnt we move past this already? Healthcare is not Free Market currently. Single Payer IS and WILL BE a FM system.

  5. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    Glad you asked. I dated a woman for about a year who at the age of 17 (she is now 27) fought and won a bought with cancer. She disclosed exactly how much it would of cost her without insurance (roughly almost half a mil) and was on the hook for roughly 20k if I remembered correctly. She now works and makes 25/hr with a 2 year degree.

    Sorry if you jump the ship when it starts to leak.
    I do love the fact that you think this outcome is somehow a boon to your argument.

    Again, holy shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    Didnt we move past this already? Healthcare is not Free Market currently. Single Payer IS and WILL BE a FM system.
    We had move passed it. The person I replied to, who invoked it, obviously had not.

    Would you care to explain it to him this time?

  6. #1246
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    Sure it is but if you have ER coverage (Which most Healthcare plans DO) you are not paying 100%. Stop it.
    You can still wind up paying tens of thousands of dollars. Stop trying to downplay it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I am ACTUALLY ASKING for them to ban me and relieve me from the misery of this thread.

  7. #1247
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Maybe it seems that way because you're not staying constant. Did you choose to go to that ER or not? Because at the face of it, it seems that you WILLINGLY went there, not that you were forced there. You're wife was pregnant. What forethought and effort did you do to make sure that the hospital in your area was in your coverage or their staff? What effort did you take previous to all of this to educate yourself on your state laws and how your insurance worked?

    I'm guessing little to none is the answer to all of this.
    So you can't imagine a situation in which someone would want to go to the nearest hospital over the cheapest?

    In addition, it is obvious you have never had to deal with the healthcare industry. If you ask how much something costs at the front desk they will not tell you anything other than refer you to a department to call, if you call that department they won't give you an answer either but will instead refer you to another department, that department will tell you it is strange that you are calling them to find out how much it will cost since they should have told you at the front desk. Then when you go to visit the doctor, in which they fully know your insurance status (in my case it was none), they tell you they won't do anything outlandish before you see the doctor. But wait, the doctor ordered x-rays before even seeing you, and when asked if it was really necessary the nurse laughs at you and says yes. After the x-ray, you meet the doctor for 5 minutes and he tells you physical therapy is the course of treatment, so you wait an hour to see the physical therapist who comes in and shakes your hand, walks you around a gym for 10 minutes and gives you a print out of exercises and stretches.

    A week later you get a bill for $150 dollars containing charges for physical therapy, doctor visit, and x-ray. You are relived that it isn't going to cost you a ton of money to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, that bill was for setting up the billing which comes two months later, a grand total of $2500. So, you're a little pissed because you went through all the right channels, talked to the people they told you to talk to, and let them know that you could not afford expensive care, that what you wanted was to see a doctor, so you call their billing department who informs you that you have to talk to customer services. Their line is busy, so you call the next day and have a chat about your experience in their hospital. You are upset, they understand you are upset and tell you they need to look into this more and they'll call you back in a week. Two weeks go by and they have not returned your call, so you call back and ask them about any progress about the bill. The person on the other end of the phone seems confused and says they can't comment on that and asks if they can return your call shortly. They don't do that. The whole experience is fucking you raw and you can't do anything about it. Before it gets resolved, because they give you the run around, it gets sent to collections. Congratulations on your next level healthcare.

    This happened to me, I did all the right things, but no one would give me an answer or tell me anything. I told them I wanted to see a doctor and nothing else. They told me that I would see a doctor first before anything else happened. That was a lie, the whole thing was a sham and a screw job.
    Last edited by jakeic; 2017-01-18 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #1248
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    I do love the fact that you think this outcome is somehow a boon to your argument.

    Again, holy shit.
    I provide an actual personal occurrence and you dont think that it has any validity to my argument lol...

    What is this shit of holy stuff you speak of?

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by drakensoul View Post
    Again, people who have no clue what they're talking about acting like they know things.

    Do you work in an ER? Hospital? For an ambulance dispatch company? At a satellite ER? Do you have any experience in any of these?

    There are many ways that people hide the fact that you're going to be billed for services.

    Example One:


    Example Two:


    To pretend like there isn't a continuum of circumstances that lead to medical bills is asinine and childish. There are definitely ways that you can be pushed into out-of-network care, and there are ways that you can have no choice but to take out-of-network care.

    That's just getting to the hospital.

    Once you're there, there are countless more.



    It's quite "obtuse" as you seem to like to use to think that there isn't an entire spectrum of real life events that go on behind these decisions. Coming up with these quippy "Well it's your personal responsibility, and there's no I in team!" remarks is absolutely useless and devoid of any understanding of the reality that goes on behind the scenes.
    1. "The satellite ER preferentially takes you to its own hospital system and tells you that if you want to go to another hospital (i.e.: an "in network" hospital), you have to pay out of pocket up front."
    Wtf are you talking about? So let me get this straight. Once again, Bill has shown up not knowing how his coverage works. He then goes to an ER satellite (whatever the fuck that is, I'm assuming outpatient care) and Bill has willing allowed them to take him to their Hospital which Bill either does or doesn't know is in his coverage (again with this not knowing shit thing.) Then Bill is told that if he wants to leave he will have to pay the Hospital that is in his plan up front (which is an assumption or a lie since we don't know how Bills insurance works in your story.)

    2. In the second story are we left to assume the Bill now lives near a hospital but has gone with an insurance package which doesn't cover the fucking obviously next door hospital? Sounds like Bill is a bad consumer again.

  10. #1250
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    You can still wind up paying tens of thousands of dollars. Stop trying to downplay it.
    Okay okay for the sake of not arguing over semantics, PICK > Is it easier to recover from 20k debt or 200k debt? GO!

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeic View Post
    So you can't imagine a situation in which someone would want to go to the nearest hospital over the cheapest?

    In addition, it is obvious you have never had to deal with the healthcare industry. If you ask how much something costs at the front desk they will not tell you anything other than refer you to a department to call, if you call that department they won't give you an answer either but will instead refer you to another department, that department will tell you it is strange that you are calling them to find out how much it will cost since they should have told you at the front desk. Then when you go to visit the doctor, in which they fully know your insurance status (in my case it was none), they tell you they won't do anything outlandish before you see the doctor. But wait, the doctor ordered x-rays before even seeing you, and when asked if it was really necessary the nurse laughs at you and says yes. After the x-ray, you meet the doctor for 5 minutes and he tells you physical therapy is the course of treatment, so you wait an hour to see the physical therapist who comes in and shakes your hand, walks you around a gym for 10 minutes and gives you a print out of exercises and stretches.

    A week later you get a bill for $150 dollars containing charges for physical therapy, doctor visit, and x-ray. You are relived that it isn't going to cost you a ton of money to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, that bill was for setting up the billing which comes two months later, a grand total of $2500. So, you're a little pissed because you went through all the right channels, talked to the people they told you to talk to, and let them know that you could not afford expensive care, that what you wanted was to see a doctor, so you call their billing department who informs you that you have to talk to customer services. Their line is busy, so you call the next day and have a chat about your experience in their hospital. You are upset, they understand you are upset and tell you they need to look into this more and they'll call you back in a week. Two weeks go by and they have not returned your call, so you call back and ask them about any progress about the bill. The person on the other end of the phone seems confused and says they can't comment on that and asks if they can return your call shortly. They don't do that. The whole experience is fucking you raw and you can't do anything about it.

    This happened to me, I did all the right things, but no one would give me an answer or tell me anything. I told them I wanted to see a doctor and nothing else. They told me that I would see a doctor first before anything else happened. That was a lie, the whole thing was a sham and a screw job.
    And the existence of the ACA or the removal if it fixes any of these stories how again?

    Yeah see I think this is where my snarkyness is loss because I'm blaming Bill in all of these. Why am I blaming Bill? Because Bill is apparently an idiot who works for Walmart who either didn't go to College or dropped out and has made a mess of his life and consistently voted against his interests which has allowed this dumb shit to prevail over the years.

    I love all of these "horror" stories and yet, I've never met anyone who has actually had one of these happen. What I have done though is seen a long line of people bitch about how their coverage and medical shit got fucked during the ACA. I also saw how it was so stupidly fabricated that Rubio was allowed to completely ruin it with both hands tied behind his back.

    What lacks in all of this is that the ACA does not make a federal or national healthcare system in which ALL of these supposed horror stories would be absolved, fixed, rectified, or solved. Yet, you are supporting ACA why?
    Last edited by hakujinbakasama; 2017-01-18 at 06:39 PM.

  12. #1252
    Twas the Night Before Inauguration!

    Twas the night before Inauguration, and up in the tower,
    The Donald reflected on his newfound power.
    The conservative masses had come out in force,
    And delivered a victory that would chart a new course.

    The snowflakes were shell-shocked with tears in their eyes,
    The media lied to them . . . What a surprise.
    They had been promised a Hillary win,
    But the criminal Clinton took one on the chin.

    And though from all corners celebrities flew,
    They made no impression, for they hadn’t a clue.
    They talked about climate, racism, and such,
    And they made up good stories . . . But didn’t know much.

    The fake news and ignorance came at a cost,
    And they can’t understand all the reasons they lost.
    They blame it on Comey and Bernie and Vlad,
    But fail to acknowledge the one that was bad.

    Yes, Hillary Clinton, in many ways flawed,
    Was her own biggest hurdle toward getting the nod.
    The campaign exposed her corruptness and greed,
    And her speeches were punch-less as ten dollar weed.

    So out in the streets there arose such a clatter,
    It was Soros-paid protestors and Black Lives Matter.
    With cities to pillage and windows to smash,
    They knew not the issues, but needed the cash.

    Eight years of Obama had given them cause,
    To expect a replacement of their Santa Claus.
    But soon the protestors will feel the pain,
    When the wheels fall off of the old gravy train.

    And now all the snowflakes are riddled with fear,
    Upset and offended by things that they’ll hear.
    The cocoa and crayons will help for a while,
    But fact-based opinions will soon cramp their style.

    I originally supported, and voted, for Cruz,
    In the end, I would vote for whoever they choose.
    He wasn’t my first choice, but soon I would cede,
    The one they call Trump is the one that we need.

    I saw him on TV in front of a crowd,
    He spoke about veterans, it made me feel proud.
    He spoke about energy, safety, and jobs,
    Taking this country back from the Washington snobs.

    He was dressed in Armani, all tailored and neat,
    And the Brunos he wore made the outfit complete.
    For a man of his vintage, he seemed rather fit,
    And he looked presidential, I have to admit.

    His eyes glowed like embers, his smile was the best,
    And his hair was the color of my old hunting vest.
    His love for this country was on full display,
    And his actions spoke louder than his words could say.

    He thanked all his voters, and before he was gone,
    Saved thousands of jobs while Obama looked on.
    The fate of this country left nothing to chance,
    So, he filled out his cabinet weeks in advance.

    The men he had chosen were of the same mind,
    Let’s set the bar high, and not lead from behind.
    He picked up his phone as he rose from his seat,
    With a flick of his finger, he sent out this tweet;

    “Now Mattis!, now Kelly!’ now Sessions! And Pruitt!
    On Perry! On Flynn, You’re the ones who can do it.
    Start lifting restrictions and building the wall,
    Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!”;

    The roar of his audience rose from the stands,
    He kissed all their babies and shook all their hands.
    He answered their questions and calmed all their fears,
    They knew it would be a fantastic four years.
    Then he jumped in his limo, and off to his jet,
    A fellow that Liberals won’t soon forget.
    He sent one more tweet as the evening expired;
    “Happy Inauguration to all,
    AND OBAMA – YOU’RE FIRED!”

  13. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by drakensoul View Post
    You're absolutely on crack if you think most insurances pay 80% out of network cost. 80% is what Medicare pays and what other insurances use as a basis for their in-network cost. And you're delusional if you think that patients don't get a bill for the full balance once their insurance rejects the claim. And bringing it back to the earlier discussion, remember the massive number of uninsured who always get a bill for the full amount and almost never pay it?

    Do you even know what average hospital bills are? What the GLOS for, say, an admission for acute exacerbation of systolic heart failure is? What the mean LOS is? How much the DRG payment is? How much the bill is?

    What about a 5 day stay for a viral syndrome with 5 CBC/BMPs, a CT abd/pelvis with contrast, and a 1u PRBC transfusion. Any idea what the cost would be at an average inner city hospital? So you can then guess at what the cost to the patient would be -- do you know what the average out of pocket maximum is?

    Again, the point is that people are charged out of network all the time, and saying it's a failure of 'personal responsibility' shows how little you understand the process. But if you want to shift it to a numbers game, I do it every day.
    Lol my insurance pays 80% out of network .....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenius View Post
    Twas the Night Before Inauguration!

    Twas the night before Inauguration, and up in the tower,
    The Donald reflected on his newfound power.
    The conservative masses had come out in force,
    And delivered a victory that would chart a new course.

    The snowflakes were shell-shocked with tears in their eyes,
    The media lied to them . . . What a surprise.
    They had been promised a Hillary win,
    But the criminal Clinton took one on the chin.

    And though from all corners celebrities flew,
    They made no impression, for they hadn’t a clue.
    They talked about climate, racism, and such,
    And they made up good stories . . . But didn’t know much.

    The fake news and ignorance came at a cost,
    And they can’t understand all the reasons they lost.
    They blame it on Comey and Bernie and Vlad,
    But fail to acknowledge the one that was bad.

    Yes, Hillary Clinton, in many ways flawed,
    Was her own biggest hurdle toward getting the nod.
    The campaign exposed her corruptness and greed,
    And her speeches were punch-less as ten dollar weed.

    So out in the streets there arose such a clatter,
    It was Soros-paid protestors and Black Lives Matter.
    With cities to pillage and windows to smash,
    They knew not the issues, but needed the cash.

    Eight years of Obama had given them cause,
    To expect a replacement of their Santa Claus.
    But soon the protestors will feel the pain,
    When the wheels fall off of the old gravy train.

    And now all the snowflakes are riddled with fear,
    Upset and offended by things that they’ll hear.
    The cocoa and crayons will help for a while,
    But fact-based opinions will soon cramp their style.

    I originally supported, and voted, for Cruz,
    In the end, I would vote for whoever they choose.
    He wasn’t my first choice, but soon I would cede,
    The one they call Trump is the one that we need.

    I saw him on TV in front of a crowd,
    He spoke about veterans, it made me feel proud.
    He spoke about energy, safety, and jobs,
    Taking this country back from the Washington snobs.

    He was dressed in Armani, all tailored and neat,
    And the Brunos he wore made the outfit complete.
    For a man of his vintage, he seemed rather fit,
    And he looked presidential, I have to admit.

    His eyes glowed like embers, his smile was the best,
    And his hair was the color of my old hunting vest.
    His love for this country was on full display,
    And his actions spoke louder than his words could say.

    He thanked all his voters, and before he was gone,
    Saved thousands of jobs while Obama looked on.
    The fate of this country left nothing to chance,
    So, he filled out his cabinet weeks in advance.

    The men he had chosen were of the same mind,
    Let’s set the bar high, and not lead from behind.
    He picked up his phone as he rose from his seat,
    With a flick of his finger, he sent out this tweet;

    “Now Mattis!, now Kelly!’ now Sessions! And Pruitt!
    On Perry! On Flynn, You’re the ones who can do it.
    Start lifting restrictions and building the wall,
    Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!”;

    The roar of his audience rose from the stands,
    He kissed all their babies and shook all their hands.
    He answered their questions and calmed all their fears,
    They knew it would be a fantastic four years.
    Then he jumped in his limo, and off to his jet,
    A fellow that Liberals won’t soon forget.
    He sent one more tweet as the evening expired;
    “Happy Inauguration to all,
    AND OBAMA – YOU’RE FIRED!”
    *insert Rock clapping GIF here*

  14. #1254
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Wtf are you talking about? So let me get this straight. Once again, Bill has shown up not knowing how his coverage works. He then goes to an ER satellite (whatever the fuck that is, I'm assuming outpatient care) and Bill has willing allowed them to take him to their Hospital which Bill either does or doesn't know is in his coverage (again with this not knowing shit thing.) Then Bill is told that if he wants to leave he will have to pay the Hospital that is in his plan up front (which is an assumption or a lie since we don't know how Bills insurance works in your story.)

    2. In the second story are we left to assume the Bill now lives near a hospital but has gone with an insurance package which doesn't cover the fucking obviously next door hospital? Sounds like Bill is a bad consumer again.
    Since you I'm assuming are actually trying to understand I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    A satellite ER is an emergency room that then funnels people that come in to the main hospital (i.e.: JFK Medical Center has two satellite ERs in nearby towns. If Bill goes to JFK ER Boynton and the ER doc decides to admit him, the ambulance company will preferentially transport Bill to JFK Medical Center). It's not an outpatient center, it's an ER. Of course they have to give you a 'choice' to go to any hospital, but if you choose one other than theirs they will require you to pay the transport fee up front. The majority of the time, since the doctor just told Bill "You could die," Bill, who doesn't have $3000 up front, will go to whatever hospital the ambulance company takes him to. Which can be an out of network facility.

    And number two is really simple, I'm not sure why you're complicating it. If you start having a heart attack and call 911, they will take you to the nearest hospital. They don't care whether it's in network or not. You might be at a friend's house, at the mall, 20 miles north eating dinner in another town, or maybe you're lucky and are at your house. Believe it or not most people do leave their houses from time to time and do end up in another hospital zone.

    And I just have to say... My friend, for someone who so clearly doesn't understand how the system works and thus could very easily end up with an out-of-network bill, you sure like to peg others as "bad consumers." Sometimes people just don't know how things work. You seem to be one of those people.

    Do you know the difference between observation and inpatient? Do you know how that affects insurance reimbursement?
    Last edited by drakensoul; 2017-01-18 at 06:43 PM.

  15. #1255
    Quote Originally Posted by drakensoul View Post
    Since you I'm assuming are actually trying to understand I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    A satellite ER is an emergency room that then funnels people that come in to the main hospital. It's not an outpatient center, it's an ER. Of course they have to give you a 'choice' to go to any hospital, but if you choose one other than theirs they will require you to pay the transport fee up front. The majority of the time, since the doctor just told Bill "You could die," Bill, who doesn't have $3000 up front, will go to whatever hospital the ambulance company takes him to. Which can be an out of network facility.

    And number two is really simple, I'm not sure why you're complicating it. If you start having a heart attack and call 911, they will take you to the nearest hospital. They don't care whether it's in network or not. You might be at a friend's house, at the mall, 20 miles north eating dinner in another town. Believe it or not most people do leave their houses from time to time and do end up in another hospital zone.
    Most healthcare plans cover the group of hospitals within your address range. It is mostly specialists you tend to start having issues. At least from my experiences.

  16. #1256
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    I provide an actual personal occurrence and you dont think that it has any validity to my argument lol...

    What is this shit of holy stuff you speak of?
    Your argument is that you should only receive th type of care you can pay for.

    You put forth a scenario that even someone who paid for healthcare was still on the hook for 10's of thousands of dollars.

    You believe this somehow strengthens your argument...apparently solely on the merit of it being a "personal occurrence".

    You'll figure out the holy shit eventually...maybe...probably not.

  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    Okay okay for the sake of not arguing over semantics, PICK > Is it easier to recover from 20k debt or 200k debt? GO!
    Both of those types of debt could result in a bankruptcy depending on the financial situation of the person involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    I am ACTUALLY ASKING for them to ban me and relieve me from the misery of this thread.

  18. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Your argument is that you should only receive th type of care you can pay for.

    You put forth a scenario that even someone who paid for healthcare was still on the hook for 10's of thousands of dollars.

    You believe this somehow strengthens your argument...apparently solely on the merit of it being a "personal occurrence".

    You'll figure out the holy shit eventually...maybe...probably not.
    Sigh AGAIN which do you prefer 20k or 200k??????????????

    NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS FREE GET OVER IT.

  19. #1259
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Both of those types of debt could result in a bankruptcy depending on the financial situation of the person involved.
    Which leads to the following, so who the fuck is going to pay for it then?

  20. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehshocka View Post
    Most healthcare plans cover the group of hospitals within your address range. It is mostly specialists you tend to start having issues. At least from my experiences.
    Most of the people who end up paying out-of-network costs are people who were, say, visiting a friend. Visiting a family member. Happened to be shopping across town or in a nearby town.

    When an emergency happens, the ambulance doesn't go over your in-network options with you and you probably don't have time to do it yourself. That doesn't make someone a bad consumer. In fact if the ambulance did go over your options, they--since they are 'independent' businesses often jointly-held by a hospital company--would tell you "Well, you can go to X hospital which is in-network, but you'll have to pay us $3000 up front."

    Silence while you contemplate. Most people end up saying "Well I don't have $3000...."

    "No problem, we'll take you to Y hospital and worry about it later."

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