What made classic wow better than current?

[Rampant Rabbit]

If I have to read one more hilarious copy-paste post about how the community was this shining beacon of hope and all things sweet, I may vomit.

The community has always been shit. The difference today is that you simply seem more people than you did before. People aren't bigger assholes and their aren't more of them. You just get more exposure to them.

Ninja-looters still got groups, bad players still got groups... they didn't get boycotted by a whole server just because you put something up in Trade Chat that one time. Likewise, the community wasn't a server, it was your guild. And that was just a single community. Your server held many communities. You didn't know everyone and their brother on the server. Unless your server had maybe 5 people on it.

So much bullshit about "the community was better!!!" that just gets repeated in the exact same way because people read it on a forum this one time. Same goes for a lot of the bad people claim about Vanilla. It's just regurgitated shit.

While you say it's bullshit, I did have the experience you seem to brush off as not having ever been the case, because you didn't experience it. It could have been one or multiple of many reasons why you didn't get to experience it like I did.

Also, I see about the same, if not less, amount of people on my server now as I did during Vanilla. The player base has shrunk, servers started to get deserted, and in order not to force players to migrate, they introduced connected realms.

[Crookids]

Also, I see about the same, if not less, amount of people on my server now as I did during Vanilla. The player base has shrunk, servers started to get deserted, and in order not to force players to migrate, they introduced connected realms.

Meanwhile, back in the real world the player-base is double... literally.

[Droodid]

The only thing I miss about old WoW was meeting people in groups, adding them to friends, and doing things with those people again (The people specifically out of guild, or out of friends group, that normally I would not have known) Other than that, I don't miss anything from Old WoW over New other than maybe some raids just because of the initial WOW factor of walking in to them and seeing the bosses.

[Daffan]

The endgame of Vanilla and TBC started at level 1 and there were multiple branches. Taking months to level up casually you could have a huge difference leveling a character of another race.

Raiding from what I've heard was a tank&spank numbers game where threat was the main mechanic of every boss, which sounds boring tbh.

Your mostly correct.

The actual gameplay was pretty tame compared to these days. Rotations were bad and so was class/spec balance regarding PvE. 25/40 raid sizes without Flex was an absolute nightmare.

But what people got addicted to was the journey. e.g you'd slowly build your character from pre-raid to raid gear over time via crafting, raiding, boes, dungeons and quests. Whereas today, most people just get showered in welfare and catchup gear that nothing actually matters, people use the Mythic raids as argument against this but most people 'punch out' and don't care by that point. (Average player could care less about your 895 raid when they beat everything at 850 with freebies - to be clear I'm also not saying Mythic Raiding should be a requirement to advance)

Content essentially was never made obsolete or trivial (boosts don't count), so people ALWAYS were on the journey and had something worthwhile to do or work towards when they logged on. Getting a new piece of gear or beating something? A real high. Now you can log in WoW, spam some easy three chest mythic + and WF/TF your way to high ilvl, or just tag a world boss and afk to netflix or semi-afk 5 timewalking dungeons for a tier piece. Eventually they release a new patch with welfare that makes all the stuff the average player did in the previous patch, worthless.

IMO that's the magic people talk about in the original 2-3 WoW's.

[Deleted]

Your mostly correct.

The actual gameplay was pretty tame compared to these days. Rotations were bad and so was class/spec balance regarding PvE. 25/40 raid sizes without Flex was an absolute nightmare.

But what people got addicted to was the journey. e.g you'd slowly build your character from pre-raid to raid gear over time via crafting, raiding, boes, dungeons and quests. Whereas today, most people just get showered in welfare and catchup gear that nothing actually matters, people use the Mythic raids as argument against this but most people 'punch out' and don't care by that point. (Average player could care less about your 895 raid when they beat everything at 850 with freebies - to be clear I'm also not saying Mythic Raiding should be a requirement to advance)

Content essentially was never made obsolete or trivial (boosts don't count), so people ALWAYS were on the journey and had something worthwhile to do or work towards when they logged on. Getting a new piece of gear or beating something? A real high. Now you can log in WoW, spam some easy three chest mythic + and WF/TF your way to high ilvl, or just tag a world boss and afk to netflix or semi-afk 5 timewalking dungeons for a tier piece. Eventually they release a new patch with welfare that makes all the stuff the average player did in the previous patch, worthless.

IMO that's the magic people talk about in the original 2-3 WoW's.

I share a lot of similar thoughts

[Rampant Rabbit]

Meanwhile, back in the real world the player-base is double... literally.

True, and the amount of continents in the game has tripled. I guess my point is that the density of vanilla feels similar to the density of the game now.

You would meet the same player randomly back in the day. You started recognizing players, and would decide if you'd attack them based on how you remember them from your previous encounters. It was a much more personal experience than how it is now, in my opinion, and much more enjoyable.

[Crookids]

True, and the amount of continents in the game has tripled. I guess my point is that the density of vanilla feels similar to the density of the game now.

You would meet the same player randomly back in the day. You started recognizing players, and would decide if you'd attack them based on how you remember them from your previous encounters. It was a much more personal experience than how it is now, in my opinion, and much more enjoyable.

This I agree with and is the only thing I miss from Vanilla.

The rest I can correctly remember as first h̶i̶g̶h̶ MMO of this magnitude, euphoria and nostalgia.

[tyrs ankle]

This I agree with and is the only thing I miss from Vanilla.

The rest I can correctly remember as first h̶i̶g̶h̶ MMO of this magnitude, euphoria and nostalgia.

That's probably one of the few things I can say I miss, but then again, you get the same sense of rivalry or whatever from arenas (if you're high rated) so the point is kinda moot.

[Vash The Stampede]

You have yet to give us a reason why map size matters in any shape or form. Kalimdor is bigger? Yeah, but, once again, it has to house enough quests to get your character through sixty levels. An expansion only needs to get you through 10 (sometimes 5) levels. Saying the vanilla maps are bigger than the expansion maps is such a meaningless, irrelevant argument, it borders on wasting time.

If all you see the map for is leveling your character, then we have a perspective problem. Look what happened in WoD where people were stuck in their Garrisons? It wasn't fun, now was it? I argue that Garrisons were fine, but it was the world that was the problem. It was literally more fun to stay in your Garrison than to explore the world. More productive, and more incentives.

I don't see a problem here considering that the base game (bundled together with all the previous expansions) costs next to nothing in comparison.

It's a problem when all the previous content is useless. I can go pick up a copy of MegaMan X and it'll play just the way it was from 1991 or whatever. Pick up a copy of Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK and etc, and it's nothing like the way it was. Also again, you're paying for an expansion, but for the price of a new game. This wouldn't be such a problem when worlds are as big as Vanilla to explore, but they aren't. TBC we go to OutLands which is a world smaller than Vanilla. WOTLK is another continent in Vanilla. Cata is a shattered Vanilla. MoP is another continent south of Vanilla. WoD is time travel back to Dreanor.

A challenging leveling experience would be good if WoW was about the leveling experience. Yet it's not.

Yea you right it isn't, anymore.

WoW is about the endgame.

Was about the end game, cause one could finish LFR and walk away, which many do.

The 'leveling experience' is just supposed to be just an overly long tutorial to get you acclimated bit by bit with your class, experiencing its strengths and drawbacks.

Yes but it was also fun. How do I know it's unfun now? Cause they charge you money to get an instant 100 or whatever. Why would you pay money to skip leveling, unless it's not fun?

Pulling individual mobs and far less utility is not fun. Period.

Never played Dark Souls I see?

Truthfully, it's you who sounds like you've never played Vanilla. You mention DPS classes. Do you even remember how god awful it was to level as a healer or tank?

I do, cause I played a Paladin in Vanilla. Most everyone back then would spec DPS, and would get away with it. I know I entered raids with my Ret spec, and healed cause gear is all that mattered. I had to lie of course, and some people would catch me. Ask me to Holy Shock them, when I didn't have Holy Shock. Or when Vengeance would go off when healing, and cause my hands to glow. But most people didn't care cause I was at the top of healing and cleansing. As long as my Paladin has Illumination, I can heal just as good as a fully Holy spec Paladin, and still put 31 points into Ret. Lots of Druids and Priests would also do this as well.

It was also far easier for a Paladin cause most of our gear had melee stats on them, except for the unholy T3 gear. That shit was for Holy spec only.

Yes, I can blame them. If you're going to complain the game is easy, you should be expected to actually play the game. Your notion about re-skinned gear is also utterly ridiculous. If you're raiding for transmog or for looks -- then I agree. You're playing the wrong game. But again, if this is the case, don't complain it's too easy.

This is the fault of the game designer, and nobody else. If the incentives are weak, or aren't even there, then you can't blame the player for not wanting to do it. I was a Heroic raider up until WoD. At that point Mythic raiding was a huge turn off. One of the reasons why I raided in Vanilla was to acquire better gear to smite my foes in PvP with. I honestly avoided raiding in Vanilla, cause I heard Paladins were only brought for healing and nothing more. But when it got harder and harder to fight off Horde in PvP, I went into raids.

There was still a reason to raid in TBC and going forward, but it got harder and harder for me to justify my time in an environment that doesn't benefit my gameplay style. Honestly MoP Timeless Isle was great cause I was dripping in Heroic gear and could totally destroy people in PvP gear. At least for a while until they nerfed it. And Ret Paladins were at their all time low for PvP in MoP. I never did serious PvP in WoD, cause I kinda expected it to be more of the same, if not worse. Which means even less incentives to go after PvP gear, let alone PvE.

Your sentiment still doesn't make sense. Mechanics change, difficulty increases and coordination becomes more necessary. Running LFR is for simply seeing the content and continuing the story.

Which used to be the incentive for people to raid. It also doesn't make sense since you could just go on YouTube and watch the entire encounter. It's not like Blizzard is Nintendo and puts out take down notices.

How is wiping to the same boss for days because you can't gauge how bad other people are all while not getting any drops (even "re-skinned") better? Besides, original Naxx was probably the only truly difficult Vanilla instance. Then when you finally drop a 40 man boss, he drops 2 epics that someone ninja loots.

Vanilla wasn't all rainbows and sunshine. There was bad aspects to it, but today they seem less bad compared to Legions bad. Also what you described is an easily solved problem. You either get a new raid leader, or a new guild to raid with. The person who ninja looted was going to have the reputation of a ninja looter and nobody would group with him/her. And it's not like today where you can just rename the character or pay money to get a level 100 and within a couple of weeks you're back with a different character. If your reputation was that bad, then you have to go and re-level another toon, which for Vanilla is going to take a while.

Again, it seems like you're the one who never played Vanilla.

There's that phrase again.

Case and point. If you're raiding with a guild and truly playing the game -- you don't need LFR. Your mythic gear from the previous tier will be better unless you're trying to grab an extra tier piece.

That's kinda the consequence of having LFR. Even Blizzard is aware of this situation, which is why they delay LFR for a while. You can't expect to tell the player they're playing the game wrong. We're talking about people who jump into GTAV and just run around the game causing mayhem, and never doing missions. To them, that's more fun. Same people who get into Minecraft and never know there is an ending to the game. They're too busy building and mining.

Ahahahah, beyond proof that you have never played Vanilla. Every Vanilla player remembers having to grind around level 40 to be eligible for more quests.

This again. You do understand there's a number of zones to quest in right? STV, Desolace, Badlands, and etc. Plus dungeons. I've leveled multiple 60's in the past, and I never ran into that problem.

PVP and yes Mythics. Of course mythics.

PvP to me is a mess. I feel WOTLK was the most balanced WoW has ever been, and even still it wasn't. Tell me, are Ret Paladins brought to RBGs in Legion? Cause they have never been wanted before since the creation of RBGs. I know now they have separate talents for PvP and PvE, which is just terrible for me. I don't like the idea of a PvP and PvE mode.

Which now include high mythic dungeons which are very challenging.

They are, but again lack incentives. When I did Mythic dungeons in WoD I did it for Valor. That's a really shitty reason for me to do dungeons. I liked how in Vanilla I could farm dungeons for LightForge, which was a really awesome armor set. They never did that ever again in WoW.

Weekly affixes to keep things fresh.

Boring crap.

Brawler's Guild for some fun with challenging solo mechanics.

Are you serious? I laugh at that Brawlers crap. So freakin unfun.

Competing on parses and logs.

Please tell me you're not talking about https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ ?

Maximizing your class' performance.

If only they got Ret Paladins right. Cause in my experience the guild will usually sacrifice my dps for something needed in the raid. Usually cause my dps was jack. Not that I wasn't at some point top 100 dps Ret Paladin, but still nothing compared to other classes and specs.

Then don't play Vanilla. You either can't comprehend what I'm saying which makes you either too biased and/or stubborn or you simply never played Vanilla which makes you intellectually dishonest.

Which one is it?

You can't say anything without a bias, that's being human. And yes I'm biased. But I will say this, if Vanilla was as bad as you make it out to be then why are so many people seeking it? Private servers show that not only are people playing it, but the population is increasing. Consequentially, Legion is heading towards the same player activity as WoD. Imagine if private servers were advertised, cause right now people only know about them through other people. If Blizzard made a legacy Vanilla Realm, I guarantee you it'll fill up quickly.

So either I'm getting incorrect information, or you're stubbornly ignorant. Which is it? Don't answer that, cause chances are you're wrong.

[Ielenia]

If all you see the map for is leveling your character, then we have a perspective problem. Look what happened in WoD where people were stuck in their Garrisons? It wasn't fun, now was it? I argue that Garrisons were fine, but it was the world that was the problem. It was literally more fun to stay in your Garrison than to explore the world. More productive, and more incentives.

"Perspective problem". Well, what did you expect? You just said "look how Kalimdor's map is so much bigger than the Broken Isles map" and left it at that, as if that, by itself, meant anything. Am I supposed to "guess" what you meant by that? Sorry, I won't.

It's a problem when all the previous content is useless. I can go pick up a copy of MegaMan X and it'll play just the way it was from 1991 or whatever. Pick up a copy of Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK and etc, and it's nothing like the way it was.

You're comparing standalone games to expansions of a single game. It doesn't work that way.

Also again, you're paying for an expansion, but for the price of a new game. This wouldn't be such a problem when worlds are as big as Vanilla to explore, but they aren't. TBC we go to OutLands which is a world smaller than Vanilla. WOTLK is another continent in Vanilla. Cata is a shattered Vanilla. MoP is another continent south of Vanilla. WoD is time travel back to Dreanor.

What's the problem with the pricing, anyways? A person who picks up WoW today, for example, will pay full price on an expansion, true, but they'll also pay a tremendously reduced price buying the 'battle chest', which is the main game plus all the previous five expansions. I imagine that really off-sets the price of the expansion.

Yea you right it isn't, anymore.

It never was?

Was about the end game, cause one could finish LFR and walk away, which many do.

I have never seen someone 'finish LFR and walk away'. How is that so different than finishing a raid and walking away? The player who, today, is the person who does not have consistent free time to devote to raiding, is basically the same person who didn't have consistent free time to devote to raiding back in vanilla, but would sometimes be pulled into raid just to be a '+1 body' to fill 40 people in the raid group.

Yes but it was also fun. How do I know it's unfun now? Cause they charge you money to get an instant 100 or whatever. Why would you pay money to skip leveling, unless it's not fun?

"Fun" is fundamentally subjective. What is fun for me may not be fun for you, and vice-versa. Simple as that. Also: options. Some people just don't want to bother with the leveling process after going through it with their main characters and/or an alt or two.

[Rollcage8]

Vanilla was:

1) Way harder base difficulty (higher barrier of entry)
No quest directions
Map was old school, zone names, quests weren't on map.
Mob to player power level was very tight, 1 mob could do 50% total hp, 2 mobs kill you. (made friends/gear matter a lot more)
Dungeons were often a 2-3 hour affair. Make group, run to door, get everyone else to the door, run dungeon.
Eg. Weapon skills were purchased from major cities, for an expensive amount of silver (10silver) and levelled up in order to reduce miss chance,high travel time
2) More small adventurer in large world feel.
World size was very large.
Travel time on foot makes you feel slow, mounts expensive to buy at the time.
World content was relevant for a long time (15 days /played to hit 60 in very original WoW release)
3) Horde vs Alliance was more defined.
Shamans on Horde, Paladins on alliance
No pink skins on horde(blood elves), No Oversized monsters on alliance(draenei/pandaren/worgen).
The horde felt aggressive, tribal and berserker, The alliance felt armoured and Holy.

These are some of the differences that made Vanilla what it was. It wasn't better totally, it was just a different game that some players preferred.

[Charge me Doctor]

There are ways to denounce something. You can't argue the Legion vs Vanilla map size, but instead you excuse it cause expansion. Problem here is that Legion costs as much as a new game, not an expansion. There's also the difficulty in leveling which you can just go by numbers. Like what the average mob hits players for vs what players hit back with. Then you can extrapolate that 2-3 mobs on you would mean certain death.

Map size is irrelevant when shit like barrens and azshara existed - literally half of these maps were empty space to autorun through.

Difficult leveling my ass, my first character was a paladin and i literally had no clue that some classes had to *gasp*, eat and drink after killng 1-5 mobs. I pulled as much shit as i wanted and dealt with it easily.
Also, damage and health pool on mobs does not give any complexity as long as it's dumb auto-attacking. Yeah, more durable monsters would give a great challenge... if they were any challenge to begin with, and (spoiler alert) they are not, they just passively deal damage to you and don't have any difficult mechanic to being with (and they shouldn't, it's not crypt of necrodancer or something after all).
My second character was a rogue, oh god these ~20 levels until i've got decent weapon and ranked up my ambush crit we hard, after than (granted, it didn't miss) anything died before i was able to get 5 CPs.
My third character was a mage when almost no monster could reach me thanks to permafrost.

No, leveling wasn't hard back then, it was tedious. Interesting for first couple of times, but tedious.

You may also say that missing your attack 4 times in a row is somehow adds to the challenge.

- - - Updated - - -

Besides, original Naxx was probably the only truly difficult Vanilla instance. Then when you finally drop a 40 man boss, he drops 2 epics that someone ninja loots. Again, it seems like you're the one who never played Vanilla. Case and point. If you're raiding with a guild and truly playing the game -- you don't need LFR. Your mythic gear from the previous tier will be better unless you're trying to grab an extra tier piece.

Naxx pretty much wasn't a difficult raid, it was hard to get into it, but half of bosses were easily LFR-level difficulty. Almost whole spider and military wing (except horsemen) was easy as fuck, infamous heigan was basically "make /target AHealer /follow macro and press it when i say" is some players had issues with latency or brainpower. Patchwerk and further up to Thaddius was a gear check.

In short, it was horsemen, thaddius, loatheb (very questionable), grobbulus and kel'thuzad who made naxx difficult, everything else was slightly above current heroic-when-overgeared difficulty setting

[PhearMark]

Probably already buried in here somewhere, but http://www.wowhead.com/item=10503/ro...oggles&spec=70 is the only real answer.

[Charge me Doctor]

Ahahahah, beyond proof that you have never played Vanilla. Every Vanilla player remembers having to grind around level 40 to be eligible for more quests.

Hey, he may pretty well be farming zul'theraze or whatever the sword from zul'farrak was called for 5 level straight

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing I miss about old WoW was meeting people in groups, adding them to friends, and doing things with those people again (The people specifically out of guild, or out of friends group, that normally I would not have known) Other than that, I don't miss anything from Old WoW over New other than maybe some raids just because of the initial WOW factor of walking in to them and seeing the bosses.

Why do you miss these things if you can and should do them on live server?

[Valech]

nothing
/10chars

[Deleted]

Probably already buried in here somewhere, but http://www.wowhead.com/item=10503/ro...oggles&spec=70 is the only real answer.

Nice joke, but seriously, not everything is rose tinted glasses.

I miss the snowflake feeling of exclusive raids, no transmogs, no LFD/LFR, no welfare epics, role play mechanics insted of game balance, class identity.
The list goes on and on and i'm tired of saying it.

[Charge me Doctor]

Was about the end game, cause one could finish LFR and walk away, which many do.

no one does that. If they do - fine, that's up to them, but that's not playing the game, it's finishing world 1-1, watching 1-2 on youtube and quitting.

Yes but it was also fun. How do I know it's unfun now? Cause they charge you money to get an instant 100 or whatever. Why would you pay money to skip leveling, unless it's not fun?

Because you already leveled dozen of characters and do not want to spend a day on leveling another one? You know, like most of players, who played for a lot would do?

I do, cause I played a Paladin in Vanilla. Most everyone back then would spec DPS, and would get away with it. I know I entered raids with my Ret spec, and healed cause gear is all that mattered. I had to lie of course, and some people would catch me. Ask me to Holy Shock them, when I didn't have Holy Shock. Or when Vengeance would go off when healing, and cause my hands to glow. But most people didn't care cause I was at the top of healing and cleansing. As long as my Paladin has Illumination, I can heal just as good as a fully Holy spec Paladin, and still put 31 points into Ret. Lots of Druids and Priests would also do this as well.

No you couldn't, you would run OOM after every pull and would make a run into a 2 hours nightmare with 10 minutes corpseruns and toilet breaks.

It was also far easier for a Paladin cause most of our gear had melee stats on them, except for the unholy T3 gear. That shit was for Holy spec only.

It wasn't, because you wanted any piece of gear regardless of it being plate or tier set with crit and int on it.

This is the fault of the game designer, and nobody else. If the incentives are weak, or aren't even there, then you can't blame the player for not wanting to do it. I was a Heroic raider up until WoD. At that point Mythic raiding was a huge turn off. One of the reasons why I raided in Vanilla was to acquire better gear to smite my foes in PvP with. I honestly avoided raiding in Vanilla, cause I heard Paladins were only brought for healing and nothing more. But when it got harder and harder to fight off Horde in PvP, I went into raids.

There was still a reason to raid in TBC and going forward, but it got harder and harder for me to justify my time in an environment that doesn't benefit my gameplay style. Honestly MoP Timeless Isle was great cause I was dripping in Heroic gear and could totally destroy people in PvP gear. At least for a while until they nerfed it. And Ret Paladins were at their all time low for PvP in MoP. I never did serious PvP in WoD, cause I kinda expected it to be more of the same, if not worse. Which means even less incentives to go after PvP gear, let alone PvE.



Which used to be the incentive for people to raid. It also doesn't make sense since you could just go on YouTube and watch the entire encounter. It's not like Blizzard is Nintendo and puts out take down notices.

Vanilla wasn't all rainbows and sunshine. There was bad aspects to it, but today they seem less bad compared to Legions bad. Also what you described is an easily solved problem. You either get a new raid leader, or a new guild to raid with. The person who ninja looted was going to have the reputation of a ninja looter and nobody would group with him/her. And it's not like today where you can just rename the character or pay money to get a level 100 and within a couple of weeks you're back with a different character. If your reputation was that bad, then you have to go and re-level another toon, which for Vanilla is going to take a while.

Incentives are there and they are strong. It's just people entitled that blizzard should make the game for them just because they pay a fee. If you don't like character progression and any other side-activity - that' fine, it means that the game is not for you, but for majority of WoW players - getting their hands on that high-ilvl Elisandre trinket will give them much satisfaction.

And you yourself say that you used to do activity that you don't enjoy (PvE raids) to do activity you enjoy (PvP) and praise the times when you had to do that? In modern wow you had to do less and less shit you don't want to do - you can progress you character the way you want to, you can gear the character the way you want to. PvP now is way more fair and engaging than it was before, and yet you complain about it (IMO you just liked to be OPed and killing other players because of your gear, but that's just my opinion)

Getting gear for PvP wasn't incentive to raid. Even back in vanilla people complained about it so much that blizzard had to make honour system. And still people tend to use PvE gear because it was easier to obtain than doing PvP, yes, people wanted shortcuts to easy victories in PvP, shocking, i know.

That's kinda the consequence of having LFR. Even Blizzard is aware of this situation, which is why they delay LFR for a while. You can't expect to tell the player they're playing the game wrong. We're talking about people who jump into GTAV and just run around the game causing mayhem, and never doing missions. To them, that's more fun. Same people who get into Minecraft and never know there is an ending to the game. They're too busy building and mining.

LFR's only negative effect was on MoP because of how they managed set bonuses. After that LFR became irrelevant. No one (decent) used it to gear up, it gave you 0 advantage and you had no incentive to run it outside of getting lulz or enchanting mats.

This again. You do understand there's a number of zones to quest in right? STV, Desolace, Badlands, and etc. Plus dungeons. I've leveled multiple 60's in the past, and I never ran into that problem.

Sure if doing gray quests in OK for you, but it was faster to grind your way to the next quest location than going back at level 40 to fucking badlands and do level 35 quests. And how many quests badlands had? Like, 20? Each of them was worth 500xp at max. Great leveling, much exp.

PvP to me is a mess. I feel WOTLK was the most balanced WoW has ever been, and even still it wasn't. Tell me, are Ret Paladins brought to RBGs in Legion? Cause they have never been wanted before since the creation of RBGs. I know now they have separate talents for PvP and PvE, which is just terrible for me. I don't like the idea of a PvP and PvE mode.

off course you think, because you've been playing ret. WoW was the most balanced when my class was OP.

They are, but again lack incentives. When I did Mythic dungeons in WoD I did it for Valor. That's a really shitty reason for me to do dungeons. I liked how in Vanilla I could farm dungeons for LightForge, which was a really awesome armor set. They never did that ever again in WoW.

No they don't. You sit there and expect content being given to you, sitting there and yelling "amuse me, game!" at the screen. At least that's how you sound like. And it confuses me, because, well, with attitude like this you probably wouldn't make it to max level in vanilla.

If only they got Ret Paladins right. Cause in my experience the guild will usually sacrifice my dps for something needed in the raid. Usually cause my dps was jack. Not that I wasn't at some point top 100 dps Ret Paladin, but still nothing compared to other classes and specs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
srsly ret paladins are not right and guilds just sacrifice their dps for something else. If you dps as ret is jack - that's problem between the keyboard and the chair.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
You can't say anything without a bias, that's being human. And yes I'm biased. But I will say this, if Vanilla was as bad as you make it out to be then why are so many people seeking it? Private servers show that not only are people playing it, but the population is increasing. Consequentially, Legion is heading towards the same player activity as WoD. Imagine if private servers were advertised, cause right now people only know about them through other people. If Blizzard made a legacy Vanilla Realm, I guarantee you it'll fill up quickly.
[/quote]
You can, but it takes certain impulses being toned down, we just choose not to. Humans can and do form unbiased conclusions to things, some people do this for the living even.
There are plenty of unbiased evidence of vanilla being inferior to legion, simply number-wise.

[yeto]

it was new

[Charge me Doctor]

It never was?

Afaik it was, unintentionally. WoW was released too early and had no end-game content. It blew up in popularity and when people reached max level they started complaining about lack of content, which is, kinda, understandable since blizzard never expected this much of attention and dedication from players, since the game was supposed to be casual version of MMOs around there.

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Vanilla was:

1) Way harder base difficulty (higher barrier of entry)
No quest directions
Map was old school, zone names, quests weren't on map.
Mob to player power level was very tight, 1 mob could do 50% total hp, 2 mobs kill you. (made friends/gear matter a lot more)
Dungeons were often a 2-3 hour affair. Make group, run to door, get everyone else to the door, run dungeon.
Eg. Weapon skills were purchased from major cities, for an expensive amount of silver (10silver) and levelled up in order to reduce miss chance,high travel time

You had your quest direction written in 2nd paragraph of any quest.
they were thanks to addons
that's just bad game design because mobs didn't do much except auto-attacking. You had no control over it except "get moar gear"
it isn't difficulty, it's inconvenience. It's not difficult to poo while standing, it's inconvenient.
10 silver isn't expensive since most skills costed about 30 when you needed your weapon skills. And you leveled up not to reduce miss chance, you leveled it up to not have it increased. It's like current artifact perks, when your character is deliberately made weaker and put behind a time (and effort in case of legion) based wall, while leveling your weapon skills was simply a time wall. ALl you needed was to get to dark portal and level it up on one of immortal mobs around there. Pay plenty of gold to a healer if you also want to afk for a healthy amount while doing that. Higher travel time is not difficulty. It's like saying that longer loading screens make game more difficult.

Vanilla was:
2) More small adventurer in large world feel.
World size was very large.
Travel time on foot makes you feel slow, mounts expensive to buy at the time.
World content was relevant for a long time (15 days /played to hit 60 in very original WoW release)

wold is bigger now than it used to be, so if that's something you base you conclusion on... well, that's weird at least, since vanilla had only two continents now you have, what, five?
that mostly because we didn't had all this information about everything. Now everything is datamined and made public.

Vanilla was:
3) Horde vs Alliance was more defined.
Shamans on Horde, Paladins on alliance
No pink skins on horde(blood elves), No Oversized monsters on alliance(draenei/pandaren/worgen).
The horde felt aggressive, tribal and berserker, The alliance felt armoured and Holy.

These are some of the differences that made Vanilla what it was. It wasn't better totally, it was just a different game that some players preferred.

Yep, they were. It was fun and i kinda miss it. But frankly if faction imbalance still was a thing it would be hell of a profitable deal for blizzard since most pro raiders would reroll alliance now thanks to ret paladins being #1 melee for nighthold afaik.
You feels are subjective, since taurens weren't that "berserker" and "aggressive". I would call them hippy. You probably imply image of orcs on whole horde, and image of humans on whole alliance. Which is kinda, well, wrong.

[Rollcage8]

Afaik it was, unintentionally. WoW was released too early and had no end-game content. It blew up in popularity and when people reached max level they started complaining about lack of content, which is, kinda, understandable since blizzard never expected this much of attention and dedication from players, since the game was supposed to be casual version of MMOs around there.

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You had your quest direction written in 2nd paragraph of any quest.
they were thanks to addons
that's just bad game design because mobs didn't do much except auto-attacking. You had no control over it except "get moar gear"
it isn't difficulty, it's inconvenience. It's not difficult to poo while standing, it's inconvenient.
10 silver isn't expensive since most skills costed about 30 when you needed your weapon skills. And you leveled up not to reduce miss chance, you leveled it up to not have it increased. It's like current artifact perks, when your character is deliberately made weaker and put behind a time (and effort in case of legion) based wall, while leveling your weapon skills was simply a time wall. ALl you needed was to get to dark portal and level it up on one of immortal mobs around there. Pay plenty of gold to a healer if you also want to afk for a healthy amount while doing that. Higher travel time is not difficulty. It's like saying that longer loading screens make game more difficult.

wold is bigger now than it used to be, so if that's something you base you conclusion on... well, that's weird at least, since vanilla had only two continents now you have, what, five?
that mostly because we didn't had all this information about everything. Now everything is datamined and made public.

Yep, they were. It was fun and i kinda miss it. But frankly if faction imbalance still was a thing it would be hell of a profitable deal for blizzard since most pro raiders would reroll alliance now thanks to ret paladins being #1 melee for nighthold afaik.
You feels are subjective, since taurens weren't that "berserker" and "aggressive". I would call them hippy. You probably imply image of orcs on whole horde, and image of humans on whole alliance. Which is kinda, well, wrong.

Directions weren't written in second paragraph, if you read vanilla WoW quest text you would realise when it said "Go talk to Blah Blah" it didn't even tell you what Map he would be on. You can argue that is lazy or bad, I don't care. I'm just stating that is what it was like and it was much harder to find a quest mob or item for a quest. Tooltips didn't list the mob was a quest drop either, so if it was collect 10 bear bums, you wouldn't know it was the right bear until it dropped one on your 10th kill.
Addons were adding convenience and were basically cheating. Cheats are always a great way to lower a games difficulty.

Mobs killing you isn't bad game design, its a challenge to the player. Forcing cooperation between players, getting consumables or crafting better gear were all valid strategies to handle death during questing. Leveling in vanilla you cared about Armour class, because it stopped you from dying. None of that is valid in Legion, mobs die when you look at them and I couldn't care less about crafting armour to beat a zone mob. Do health potions still exist?

10 silver was expensive during the start of the game, Once gold farmers became rampant and gold inflation kicked in, then no it wasn't a huge deal.
Weapon skills are nothing like artifact gating, they were a Role playing game effect, you had to go and get taught to use a Gun in thunderbluff, then you killed stuff to level it up, now you were a gun toting Troll hunter. It wasn't required, it was to role play a gun shooting troll. You could smash out weapon skill bars through "clever exploitation" as you say. That doesn't nullify that a brand new player couldn't just use a gun on his troll hunter and had to earn it with silvers and time.

Higher travel time often meant "go find thunderbluff" no addon GPS built into the game, Thunderbluff was fog of war. It was mysterious, unknown. Go Find It by Using Your Legs. It was hard when you first did it, because you didn't know where to go and making a wrong turn could mean 10-20 minutes backtracking on foot.