What made classic wow better than current?

[Nightstalker]

It was new.

It was slower.
No tools.
No X-Realm.

Don't know if the last 3 can be considered as "better".

[Crookids]

That alone already blows anything in Legion leveling out of the water.

Fighting a single mob one on one on-level in Vanilla was rarely dangerous (save for rare or when you started to attempt elite), but that's the whole point, often you would get an add, or a linked group, or a patrol, or would aggro a mob when you were low on health. And then you would have to manage it, and you had the tools to pull it off, and pulling it off was gratifying.

That's far more than can be said about leveling since WotLk.

Manage it? Again, it is seriously like you have never played Vanilla. There were only a few classes who could survive accidentally pulling an Elite or a pat. Either you had engineering and could NB, root and/or run away or you were a utility class that could heal yourself. Otherwise you were done. As for healing classes, it was god awful to level so you were trading that utility for useful damage. Does no one remember how grueling it was to level a healer or tank? How squishy cloth classes were to the point where it was frustrating beyond belief?

And gratifying? Spamming AOE now (your other comment)? I mean, come on. If you were a Paladin your entire class was literally built around auto attack. What are you saying? There were FAR less abilities. You either had one that you spammed or your class was auto-attack centric.

I agree with what he says as well. Yes, I remember all of this. My first class was a Paladin and remember being super stoked for Exorcism and thinking it would break up the mundane lack of abilities and then when it was undead only it was a heartbreak. I remember grinding level after level eager to unlock that next ability or talent.

I also agree that gear could feel more rewarding but I don't agree with what he says about gear not feeling rewarding now. Yes, sometimes a reskin can feel visually underwhelming but with transmog, someone is going to convert their weapon into something 'glowy' anyway. However, I definitely notice when someone has a hard to get / rare weapon but more importantly -- numbers are a real thing now. Nothing get's me more excited then being able to compete, show off and be a wanted part of a group because I am known to be competent and put up solid numbers. Something that was almost impossible to gauge for DPS especially in large groups. This comes from hard work and getting into that harder content for gear. Yes, the rare feeling of a epic or blue is gone but there are other ways upgrades have an effect where they did not back in Vanilla such as meters, logs and parses. And I am not just talking about "der der DEEPS". I am talking about taking more damage as a tank, putting out the best heals for your class, optimizing gear performance etc.

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=>

Paint me surprised.

You can insinuate I am a drooling moron all you want. Your ad-homs won't save your arguments that were embarrassingly dismantled.

[skatblast]

I'm not sure why this is even a discussion with popular vanilla servers out like elysium now. Just go try it and find out for yourself. I myself cant go back to retail after trying it again.

[avoidconfusion]

I started MMO's with Ultima Online in 1997.

A modern day version of that game would be the bees knees.

And that my friends concludes the thread.

UO was the best MMO I ever played.

[Akka]

Manage it? Again, it is seriously like you have never played Vanilla. There were only a few classes who could survive accidentally pulling an Elite or a pat. Either you had engineering and could NB, root and/or run away or you were a utility class that could heal yourself. Otherwise you were done.

Funny how people who mock the supposed lack of depth of Vanilla gameplay are the ones who seem to simply be ignorant about it.
All classes had tons of tools to manage shit, if only to be able to flee so to live another day - the difference with Legion is that it wasn't only one magical "oh shit" button which solved immediately the problem, but just a way for the player to use what he had and get out of hairy situations.

It's precisely one thing I refer to when I talk about Vanilla variety (and the fact that classes REALLY felt different, while Legion seems more or less the same with just the graphics changing - an exagerration yeah, but not as much as I would like), and I enjoyed tremendously to challenge myself by pulling and surviving the most mobs I could (and yeah I died often ). Tanking one mob with a pet, fearing another one, kiting the third as a warlock ; switch-tanking mobs with the pet, healing him when he tanks, bandaging a bit, then grabbing aggro and kiting when his health gets low, using traps and feign death as a hunter ; cleaving and sundering as a warrior, and fearing + bandaging to get a bit of health back, and hamstring and fleeing when things were too hard (damn the daze which killed so many attempt at running away) ; the feeling of ultimate power as a frost mage who could kite and round up countless adds, control the battlefield with more slows than most classes had attacks ; the ultimate endurance of holy priest, which could not do a lot of damage but was practically unkillable with a good balance of wanding, shielding, HoT and playing with the FSR to regen...

Yeah, Vanilla was certainly TONS more fun in gameplay than Legion, where I could play the near entirety of the content with three buttons and a headlong rush into anything with a red name.


Also, you implicitely admitted you could die very easily in Vanilla with a single overaggro - that's kinda recognizing what we're saying here, about Vanilla being much more engaging than Legion on the leveling content.

And gratifying? Spamming AOE now (your other comment)? I mean, come on. If you were a Paladin your entire class was literally built around auto attack. What are you saying? There were FAR less abilities. You either had one that you spammed or your class was auto-attack centric.

There were much simpler "rotations", but there was much more abilities overall. As an amusing consequence, it meant that leveling and 5-man actually had more engaging gameplay than some raids (in particular MC, in which three quarters of abilities were useless because trash couldn't be stunned or shackled or slowed or whatever ; ZG and AQ20 and even other 40-men raids were much better about this by having trash susceptible to most abilities) which is probably the reason why "rotations" became a thing, actually, so that raid weren't outshined by lesser content.

Yes, Paladin melee was pretty boring, I freely admit it.
But 1) I'm not saying Vanilla was perfect, I'm saying it was overall much better, 2) It's only one class and 3) it was a time were spec were much more tied to class than today, so a paladin's toolbox was not just its retributions abilities, but also all his heals and blessings and so on. If you ignore 90 % of what he can do, obviously it doesn't leave a lot.

Having to manage threat and mana/rage (energy is more of a timing issue) and managing groups of four adds by having a mix of CC and priority targets is still tons more engaging than "lol rush, pack and spam your AoE button" which has been pretty much the whole non-boss gameplay since WotLK (and a good amount of boss gameplay below Mythic, and NH is looking to be a particularly acute case of this).

You can insinuate I am a drooling moron all you want. Your ad-homs won't save your arguments that were embarrassingly dismantled.

Big words and nice posturing, but the problem is that you haven't dismantled anything.
On the other hand, calling "nostalgia" when someone explicitely point at a mechanism which has nothing to do with nostalgia (i.e. : "I don't like spamming AoE" is completely unrelated to any kind of nostalgia) is the one thing factually incorrect and which requires being purposedly stupid to pull off.
So yeah.

[tyrs ankle]

Funny how people who mock the supposed lack of depth of Vanilla gameplay are the ones who seem to simply be ignorant about it.
All classes had tons of tools to manage shit, if only to be able to flee so to live another day - the difference with Legion is that it wasn't only one magical "oh shit" button which solved immediately the problem, but just a way for the player to use what he had and get out of hairy situations.

It's precisely one thing I refer to when I talk about Vanilla variety (and the fact that classes REALLY felt different, while Legion seems more or less the same with just the graphics changing - an exagerration yeah, but not as much as I would like), and I enjoyed tremendously to challenge myself by pulling and surviving the most mobs I could (and yeah I died often ). Tanking one mob with a pet, fearing another one, kiting the third as a warlock ; switch-tanking mobs with the pet, healing him when he tanks, bandaging a bit, then grabbing aggro and kiting when his health gets low, using traps and feign death as a hunter ; cleaving and sundering as a warrior, and fearing + bandaging to get a bit of health back, and hamstring and fleeing when things were too hard (damn the daze which killed so many attempt at running away) ; the feeling of ultimate power as a frost mage who could kite and round up countless adds, control the battlefield with more slows than most classes had attacks ; the ultimate endurance of holy priest, which could not do a lot of damage but was practically unkillable with a good balance of wanding, shielding, HoT and playing with the FSR to regen...

Yeah, Vanilla was certainly TONS more fun in gameplay than Legion, where I could play the near entirety of the content with three buttons and a headlong rush into anything with a red name.


Also, you implicitely admitted you could die very easily in Vanilla with a single overaggro - that's kinda recognizing what we're saying here, about Vanilla being much more engaging than Legion on the leveling content.

There were much simpler "rotations", but there was much more abilities overall. As an amusing consequence, it meant that leveling and 5-man actually had more engaging gameplay than some raids (in particular MC, in which three quarters of abilities were useless because trash couldn't be stunned or shackled or slowed or whatever ; ZG and AQ20 and even other 40-men raids were much better about this by having trash susceptible to most abilities) which is probably the reason why "rotations" became a thing, actually, so that raid weren't outshined by lesser content.

Yes, Paladin melee was pretty boring, I freely admit it.
But 1) I'm not saying Vanilla was perfect, I'm saying it was overall much better, 2) It's only one class and 3) it was a time were spec were much more tied to class than today, so a paladin's toolbox was not just its retributions abilities, but also all his heals and blessings and so on. If you ignore 90 % of what he can do, obviously it doesn't leave a lot.

Having to manage threat and mana/rage (energy is more of a timing issue) and managing groups of four adds by having a mix of CC and priority targets is still tons more engaging than "lol rush, pack and spam your AoE button" which has been pretty much the whole non-boss gameplay since WotLK (and a good amount of boss gameplay below Mythic, and NH is looking to be a particularly acute case of this).

Big words and nice posturing, but the problem is that you haven't dismantled anything.
On the other hand, calling "nostalgia" when someone explicitely point at a mechanism which has nothing to do with nostalgia (i.e. : "I don't like spamming AoE" is completely unrelated to any kind of nostalgia) is the one thing factually incorrect and which requires being purposedly stupid to pull off.
So yeah.

Says all this and I'm 90% sure you never did cms or bolstering/raging weeks or raids in relatively bad gear.
lel

Anyway nothing said can change your subjective views. But the truth is that legion is objectively better.

[InternetObserver]

Disappearance of the "community" and the absence of envy/greed, I would say. Yeah, people "grow up" and get jobs and get married etc, but that ALONE can't explain the general decline.

Disappearance of the "community" aspect is self-explanatory and not up for debate in 2017. The absence of envy/greed is more complicated, and also ties in with the transmog system. With purples being "so easy" to get, and requiring little to no effort, there's no more envy to "drive" you to push yourself hard, work hard, etc. In the past, pre-Xmog, you could literally "see" who the good players were (as evidenced by that cool looking weapon, those awesome shoulders, etc). Now, with Xmog and the fact that purples are "common" and "standard", it *looks* like "everyone" is a good player There is no more "exclusivity" wherein you can tell who the good players are just by the gear they have equipped.

When "everyone" is purple-geared to the hilt and *looks* "hardcore", then no one looks "special", because "everyone" is "special". It's sort of like real life, if "everyone" was magically given a Lamborghini tomorrow, then it wouldn't be "special" anymore and would instantly be reduced to the common car "status" of a Toyota, Honda, Chevy, etc.

Envy/greed is the ENGINE of an MMO, and reducing epics/purples to the "status" of easily-acquired greens has undermined this incredible motivating force

[wych]

Can we stop with this kinda junk? It's huge, spread out, lots of running between mobs, plenty of safe spots on roads and then there is the danger of 'auto attacking mobs' and perhaps mobs over your level. Woo.

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You are right, TBC heroics are far better, Cata heroics (pre-nerf) were better. I'd say some of the affixes in M+ make for a much scarier dungeon than a patroling mob in freaking Deadmines.

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You mean press the feed pet macro and not really care about it outside of that? K. Sorry, I could give a shit about my pet in Vanilla because I could just rez it when needed and throw it a piece of whatthefuckever and move on about my killing.

But see I don't care if you have a differing opinion to me. Good for you, that doesn't stop mine or anybody else's opinion being valid. You prefer the current game and don't like the RPG elements that they removed, good for you, keep playing Legion. But for those of us who want to play the old game that we love there's no legal alternative

[Kyanion]

But see I don't care if you have a differing opinion to me. Good for you, that doesn't stop mine or anybody else's opinion being valid. You prefer the current game and don't like the RPG elements that they removed, good for you, keep playing Legion. But for those of us who want to play the old game that we love there's no legal alternative

Still makes your opinion pretty silly but whatevers. You think Vanilla poses a challenge in 2017 and I think you are nutters. I liked Vanilla just fine 12 years ago, but yeah.....it isn't 12 years ago.

And for your last little line, there is no legal alternative because the company that makes the game has chosen to move the game forward with expansions. They chose not to offer a 12 year old version of the game. But I guess that isn't good enough for you and others to accept so yeah.

[anakin57]

It was so much simpler then, although honestly I am still loving WoW so no complaints about the evolution

[Crookids]

Funny how people who mock the supposed lack of depth of Vanilla gameplay are the ones who seem to simply be ignorant about it.
All classes had tons of tools to manage shit, if only to be able to flee so to live another day - the difference with Legion is that it wasn't only one magical "oh shit" button which solved immediately the problem, but just a way for the player to use what he had and get out of hairy situations.

It's precisely one thing I refer to when I talk about Vanilla variety (and the fact that classes REALLY felt different, while Legion seems more or less the same with just the graphics changing - an exagerration yeah, but not as much as I would like), and I enjoyed tremendously to challenge myself by pulling and surviving the most mobs I could (and yeah I died often ). Tanking one mob with a pet, fearing another one, kiting the third as a warlock ; switch-tanking mobs with the pet, healing him when he tanks, bandaging a bit, then grabbing aggro and kiting when his health gets low, using traps and feign death as a hunter ; cleaving and sundering as a warrior, and fearing + bandaging to get a bit of health back, and hamstring and fleeing when things were too hard (damn the daze which killed so many attempt at running away) ; the feeling of ultimate power as a frost mage who could kite and round up countless adds, control the battlefield with more slows than most classes had attacks ; the ultimate endurance of holy priest, which could not do a lot of damage but was practically unkillable with a good balance of wanding, shielding, HoT and playing with the FSR to regen...

Yeah, Vanilla was certainly TONS more fun in gameplay than Legion, where I could play the near entirety of the content with three buttons and a headlong rush into anything with a red name.


Also, you implicitely admitted you could die very easily in Vanilla with a single overaggro - that's kinda recognizing what we're saying here, about Vanilla being much more engaging than Legion on the leveling content.

There were much simpler "rotations", but there was much more abilities overall. As an amusing consequence, it meant that leveling and 5-man actually had more engaging gameplay than some raids (in particular MC, in which three quarters of abilities were useless because trash couldn't be stunned or shackled or slowed or whatever ; ZG and AQ20 and even other 40-men raids were much better about this by having trash susceptible to most abilities) which is probably the reason why "rotations" became a thing, actually, so that raid weren't outshined by lesser content.

Yes, Paladin melee was pretty boring, I freely admit it.
But 1) I'm not saying Vanilla was perfect, I'm saying it was overall much better, 2) It's only one class and 3) it was a time were spec were much more tied to class than today, so a paladin's toolbox was not just its retributions abilities, but also all his heals and blessings and so on. If you ignore 90 % of what he can do, obviously it doesn't leave a lot.

Having to manage threat and mana/rage (energy is more of a timing issue) and managing groups of four adds by having a mix of CC and priority targets is still tons more engaging than "lol rush, pack and spam your AoE button" which has been pretty much the whole non-boss gameplay since WotLK (and a good amount of boss gameplay below Mythic, and NH is looking to be a particularly acute case of this).

Big words and nice posturing, but the problem is that you haven't dismantled anything.
On the other hand, calling "nostalgia" when someone explicitely point at a mechanism which has nothing to do with nostalgia (i.e. : "I don't like spamming AoE" is completely unrelated to any kind of nostalgia) is the one thing factually incorrect and which requires being purposedly stupid to pull off.
So yeah.

This is what I mean. "much simpler rotations". There were no rotations in Vanilla. Period.

I openly admitted there are certain things about Vanilla, such as good gear being more rare, having to sap and CC targets, class comp mattering... that are favorable. The point is that they are few and far between. The very basis of nostalgia is when you remember only the good times. This is my entire point. No one here is saying that everything in Vanilla was terrible. But talking about the glory days of the generation previous is nothing new. The concept of forgetting the heartache and selective memory is not something that was introduced in Vanilla WoW.

So yes, saying Vanilla was amazing has to be primarily based on nostalgia or the fact that the person did not actually play. Just look at any Vanilla raid mechanic. They had to be tuned for 40 people so they were brain-dead easy. Go look at a Vanilla raid boss kill. You have people mouse-clicking abilities. The fact of the matter is, it was never more difficult and it never incorporated more skill.

Now if you want to sit there and tell me that you enjoy the incredibly mundane grinding of Vanilla, you like the fact that it was easier but more realistic, you like not getting gear for weeks and slowly climbing tiers of content, you like having to go back to previous tiers to gear up new guild members, you like slowly leveling... Or any of the other things I mentioned in previous posts -- so be it. I would just love to see you actually stick with it and never return to Legion because "Vanilla is so much more enjoyable" to you.

But don't sit there and tell me that Vanilla actually took skill or that it was harder to play a class, or that classes had more utility or that playing was less spamming or any of the other stuff you're claiming Vanilla was like because you're being intellectually dishonest. It all sounds like a serious reach to defend your nostalgia or some regurgitated thing you hear your favorite YouTuber say.

Big words and nice posturing, but the problem is that you haven't dismantled anything.
On the other hand, calling "nostalgia" when someone explicitely point at a mechanism which has nothing to do with nostalgia (i.e. : "I don't like spamming AoE" is completely unrelated to any kind of nostalgia) is the one thing factually incorrect and which requires being purposedly stupid to pull off.
So yeah.

[Deleted]

Vanilla had A LOT of roleplay features for the sake of being fun and immersive.
Nowadays everything is boring and predictable for the sake of game balance or convenience.

From the top of my head i remember the doomguard warlock summon that would kill 1 person trying to help you summon it.
A blacksmith (i think) patern that you needed a priest to mind control a mob in a raid so he would be friendly to your teammates and sell it.
A rogue quest that would give a debuff of one week without being able to stealth.
Hunter quest chain to get a epic bow that if anyone else tryed to help you killing the mob a demon would come and one shot the helper.
Benediction (staff) quest chain for priests.
Paladin spells only working on undead mobs - purely for roleplay purposes.

I can't remember more but i'm sure some of you can recall some more of this stuff.

[Daffan]

Immersion. Sense of accomplishment. Social Interaction.

Sense of accomplishment is the biggest one. Social Interaction and Immersion I would think are secondary, because sense of accomplishment effects everyone, even the solo-casual-average player.

Unless your Mythic raiding (Which is an extreme peak for the average player), everything is a complete joke. Welfare, catchup mechanics, netflix-worthy content and patch cycles that make content trivial/obsolete. Your basically on a ride.

You either get burned out because nothing feels interesting/rewarding, or the content literally becomes trivial/obsolete so you have nothing to do.

[InfiniteCharger]

WoW was more casual/easier than the other MMOs at the time. However, as time progressed, not only more MMOs have popped up, but the new MMOs were designed with casual players in mind more than their predecessors, so WoW had to adapt to stay relevant, increasing its own accessibility.


"Skill"? Skill? Please. I'll accept it if you said just 'commitment', but 'skill'? Nope. Raid fights nowadays are orders of magnitude more complex than they were back in vanilla.

Yes skill. Raids were more difficult in the sense that you had to have appropriate gear, with appropriate resists, enchants and potions plus proper knowledge of how to play the class to beat the raid. There was no multiple raid difficulties, so raids were tuned around certain gear stats and group compositions and not very forgiving. Hence you could not out gear a raid and clear it on the day it was released.... as in Nighthold, which disproves your point about skill and complexity. For the time and the gear, class mechanics and other game mechanics, yes there was a requisite level of skill required such as managing mana, managing threat, etc. etc. Whether you liked those kinds of mechanics doesn't change the fact that the game was built around knowing how to use them effectively.

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Vanilla had A LOT of roleplay features for the sake of being fun and immersive.
Nowadays everything is boring and predictable for the sake of game balance or convenience.

From the top of my head i remember the doomguard warlock summon that would kill 1 person trying to help you summon it.
A blacksmith (i think) patern that you needed a priest to mind control a mob in a raid so he would be friendly to your teammates and sell it.
A rogue quest that would give a debuff of one week without being able to stealth.
Hunter quest chain to get a epic bow that if anyone else tryed to help you killing the mob a demon would come and one shot the helper.
Benediction (staff) quest chain for priests.
Paladin spells only working on undead mobs - purely for roleplay purposes.

I can't remember more but i'm sure some of you can recall some more of this stuff.

Absolutely. Vanilla classes reminded me a lot more of a literal interpretation of D&D rules more than anything.
In some ways it was clunky as hell but in other ways it was cool. Every class had a specific niche that it was designed to fill.
Paladins had auras and buffs that folks liked plus good flash heals with a low mana cost which made them perfect as backups for healers.
Was it perfect? Hell no. But the mentality behind the classes and game in general was way different and much more about the "class fantasy" of an RPG. Hence it made sense that as champions of the light the Paladins were effective against undead and had so many spells, buffs and effective heals based on the light. That was the fantasy and lore of the class and the mechanics reflected that.

I think that since then Blizzard still hasn't come to grips with what they want the classes to be like plus they have bowed to pressure to address the issues with many of the vanilla classes but not necessarily in ways everyone agrees with.

[TITAN308]

And that my friends concludes the thread.

UO was the best MMO I ever played.

Don't think it could survive sadly. That game literally gave freedom to the player in just about every way possible. This also includes the harsh reality of living in a world where "murderers" lurk. Gamers these days just don't have the patient for this stuff anymore.

[Ielenia]

Yes skill. Raids were more difficult in the sense that you had to have appropriate gear, with appropriate resists, enchants and potions

That's not "skill". That's "time commitment"

plus proper knowledge of how to play the class to beat the raid.

Please. A sizable portion of the raid groups were made of inexperienced players that were there just to fill 40 people in the raid group. And, again, raid fights were MUCH simpler back then. Ragnaros is a much, much simpler fight than Xavius, for example. "Skill"? You almost didn't need skill, in comparison.

There was no multiple raid difficulties, so raids were tuned around certain gear stats and group compositions and not very forgiving.

Raids today are the same thing. They are tuned around gear. And "not very forgiving"? Please. You could have 5-10 people dead and still beat the fights. Want 'not very forgiving'? Do some mythic raiding, in Legion.

Hence you could not out gear a raid and clear it on the day it was released.... as in Nighthold, which disproves your point about skill and complexity.

Why don't you compare it to the hardest mode possible, instead of taking the cheap route and comparing it to the easiest modes?

For the time and the gear, class mechanics and other game mechanics, yes there was a requisite level of skill required such as managing mana, managing threat, etc. etc. Whether you liked those kinds of mechanics doesn't change the fact that the game was built around knowing how to use them effectively.

So instead of having to worry about threat, tanks now worry about surviving and properly rotating their defensive skills. If you think mana management isn't a thing... I wonder if you wandered into progression fights in mythic or later heroic raiding in Legion.

[Kallisto]

Disappearance of the "community" and the absence of envy/greed, I would say. Yeah, people "grow up" and get jobs and get married etc, but that ALONE can't explain the general decline.

Disappearance of the "community" aspect is self-explanatory and not up for debate in 2017. The absence of envy/greed is more complicated, and also ties in with the transmog system. With purples being "so easy" to get, and requiring little to no effort, there's no more envy to "drive" you to push yourself hard, work hard, etc. In the past, pre-Xmog, you could literally "see" who the good players were (as evidenced by that cool looking weapon, those awesome shoulders, etc). Now, with Xmog and the fact that purples are "common" and "standard", it *looks* like "everyone" is a good player There is no more "exclusivity" wherein you can tell who the good players are just by the gear they have equipped.

When "everyone" is purple-geared to the hilt and *looks* "hardcore", then no one looks "special", because "everyone" is "special". It's sort of like real life, if "everyone" was magically given a Lamborghini tomorrow, then it wouldn't be "special" anymore and would instantly be reduced to the common car "status" of a Toyota, Honda, Chevy, etc.

Envy/greed is the ENGINE of an MMO, and reducing epics/purples to the "status" of easily-acquired greens has undermined this incredible motivating force

*Right click, inspect.*

Oh this person has mythic tier gear as obvious from the icons showing their design.

See how hard that is and how better it is for people to actually be able to express themselves through their own designs than having a million and one clones?

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Yes skill. Raids were more difficult in the sense that you had to have appropriate gear, with appropriate resists, enchants and potions plus proper knowledge of how to play the class to beat the raid.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Put any major raid boss from the past 3 expansions (Normal, Heroic or Mythic). Swap them with any boss from Vanilla and the bosses from the last 3 raids would become outright guild killers with their mechanics and complexity alone.

You're not arguing with normal players when you say "Vanilla raids were harder." you're actually arguing with Method/Serenity/etc who are all in agreement that the difficulty in modern raids dwarf those from before.

[tyrs ankle]

*Right click, inspect.*

Oh this person has mythic tier gear as obvious from the icons showing their design.

See how hard that is and how better it is for people to actually be able to express themselves through their own designs than having a million and one clones?

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I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Put any major raid boss from the past 3 expansions (Normal, Heroic or Mythic). Swap them with any boss from Vanilla and the bosses from the last 3 raids would become outright guild killers with their mechanics and complexity alone.

You're not arguing with normal players when you say "Vanilla raids were harder." you're actually arguing with Method/Serenity/etc who are all in agreement that the difficulty in modern raids dwarf those from before.

Even a minor one would have savagely dismantled guilds in vanilla.
Imagine train boss.

Now imagine mythic train boss (if you've ever done that)

[HitRefresh]

Just a few things:

1) Difficulty of soloing content encouraged players to group even for common quests, so while soloing was still possible, people actually *wanted* to group, and people would stay together as groups. Compare that to current WoW, players only group when they have to (world bosses for example) and usually only with people like friends and guild members, if even. Leveling from 1-110 is more than likely a solo experience and designed to be one.

2) Clean fights. There isn't fucking shit everywhere, you can actually tell what's happening, and it's clear what you as a player should be doing. It's hard to tell what the boss mechanics are now because there's just so many spell effects and everything is huge and we can't zoom out as far even though the game is designed to be seen.

3) There was a clear sense of class identity outside of artifact weapons. There was a clear sense of race identity. Cultures weren't being convoluted like they are now.

4) The leveling experience wasn't just something you wanted to get over with and end up blowing through mindlessly.

5) There was a strong sense of accomplishment with pretty much anything you did.

[tyrs ankle]

Just a few things:

1) Difficulty of soloing content encouraged players to group even for common quests, so while soloing was still possible, people actually *wanted* to group, and people would stay together as groups. Compare that to current WoW, players only group when they have to (world bosses for example) and usually only with people like friends and guild members, if even. Leveling from 1-110 is more than likely a solo experience and designed to be one.

2) Clean fights. There isn't fucking shit everywhere, you can actually tell what's happening, and it's clear what you as a player should be doing. It's hard to tell what the boss mechanics are now because there's just so many spell effects and everything is huge and we can't zoom out as far even though the game is designed to be seen.

3) There was a clear sense of class identity outside of artifact weapons. There was a clear sense of race identity. Cultures weren't being convoluted like they are now.

4) The leveling experience wasn't just something you wanted to get over with and end up blowing through mindlessly.

5) There was a strong sense of accomplishment with pretty much anything you did.

1) This was often because of things like incomplete toolkits, but yes, you have a "point" here. That being said I remember duoing most content cus tanky pet+hybrid heals could do mostly everything.
2) You can tell exactly what's going on right now, if you're paying attention. That's the exact point, they want you to pay attention. You could afk autoshot most of T1-T6.
3) Another symptom of incomplete toolkits, led to "hybrids heal lol"
4) Yes it was.
5) No, not really. I feel the same way about weapon upgrades now as I did then. The difference is that unlike vanilla, there were alternatives. Yeah, getting a DFT felt good, but the fact that you'd likely have to wait months again to see another if you didn't get it? Lol. What was it, 5 drops for 40 players? Yeah that's 100% bull.