I really WANT to love Legion, but I feel like Blizzard keeps getting in their own way

[Rakoth]

You have a point, actually. Imagine a WoW where nothing ever changed? It would have quickly stagnated and died a long time ago. I think the real problem here is not that Blizzard is changing the game constantly, but rather the rate at which those changes happen, and the nature of HOW those changes happen(ignoring feedback).

I wonder what would have happened if, instead of changing the fundamental playstyle of each class every expansion, Blizzard instead just added new specs or new classes. Or sub-specs maybe? Letting people play the style they'd gotten used to, but also proving the option to try something new each new expansion as well.

Blizzard specifically stated that they were bringing back the classes and specs to their fantasy. I took that to signify quite a lot of changes. I embrace the change. Windwalker was a mess before Legion, now it's in a solid place. Without change, we would have been completely screwed. On the other hand, Mistweaver got a very large overhaul, and i had to relearn it from scratch. I actually prefer this one, even tho I am sad we can't fistweave.

Assassination rogues went from. Mutilate, Mutilate, Mutilate, rupture / envenom... to the same thing, but with Garrote. Not a huge amount of changes there.

This experience with the classes is subjective. I love the changes so far, in the classes I have played. I enjoy Ret and I don't like Holy pally anymore, so I don't play it. I love Windwalker, and I have adapted to Mistweaver. I love assassination, and can't do Sub... That's ok.

If any of you worked in video games at all, you would know that it's a job of passion. The hours are shit, the pay is middling (compared to other software jobs) and the work is thankless (our community sucks). To come out and claim that Blizzard only cares about money, or Blizzard doesn't give a shit about the game is to show a level of ignorance that is criminal. Blizzard makes mistakes, they screw up, it's a complicated system with a lot of variables, and they are humans.

But to go so far as to deny their intentions is to have no idea how the video game industry works. We aren't talking about some micro-transaction generic app creating factory, we are talking about one of the most successful game studios in the world. Believe me, while they are just as flawed as all of us, they are passionate about their product.

[SirCowdog]

Blizzard specifically stated that they were bringing back the classes and specs to their fantasy. I took that to signify quite a lot of changes. I embrace the change. Windwalker was a mess before Legion, now it's in a solid place. Without change, we would have been completely screwed. On the other hand, Mistweaver got a very large overhaul, and i had to relearn it from scratch. I actually prefer this one, even tho I am sad we can't fistweave.

Assassination rogues went from. Mutilate, Mutilate, Mutilate, rupture / envenom... to the same thing, but with Garrote. Not a huge amount of changes there.

This experience with the classes is subjective. I love the changes so far, in the classes I have played. I enjoy Ret and I don't like Holy pally anymore, so I don't play it. I love Windwalker, and I have adapted to Mistweaver. I love assassination, and can't do Sub... That's ok.

If any of you worked in video games at all, you would know that it's a job of passion. The hours are shit, the pay is middling (compared to other software jobs) and the work is thankless (our community sucks). To come out and claim that Blizzard only cares about money, or Blizzard doesn't give a shit about the game is to show a level of ignorance that is criminal. Blizzard makes mistakes, they screw up, it's a complicated system with a lot of variables, and they are humans.

But to go so far as to deny their intentions is to have no idea how the video game industry works. We aren't talking about some micro-transaction generic app creating factory, we are talking about one of the most successful game studios in the world. Believe me, while they are just as flawed as all of us, they are passionate about their product.

That "explanation" they used was one big fat lie in order to justify screwing with the classes however they wanted. Melee hunter? Come on now, that was NEVER a serious aspect of the class. Even in vanilla it was a joke spec, along the same lines as a bandage warrior. Sure, hunters had things like raptor strike and wing-clip, but those were abilities that only existed to be able to do SOMETHING when a target got inside their deadzone(you remember that, right?). It was never meant as a class-defining theme. And yet....Survival hunters now are inflicted upon the entire community. And taking traps away from specs other than survival? Where did that abortion fit into the "class fantasy"?

Sorry, but the entire class fantasy thing is bullshit. And when given feedback explaining exactly how they're screwing up, Blizzard ignores it and goes on to do whatever the hell they want. This isn't about some minor mistake that's easily corrected. This is about a pattern of behavior spanning YEARS. And I highly suspect it's not due to the rank and file devs at Blizzard, but because of some of the egos of the guys at the top.

[Akka]

Blizzard specifically stated that they were bringing back the classes and specs to their fantasy.

They failed hard at it.
They didn't at all bring back the classes to their fantasy. They made new fantasy and new archetypes and then put the spec in them. It's certainly nothing like how they were in Vanilla.

[infinitemeridian]

Blizzard specifically stated that they were bringing back the classes and specs to their fantasy. I took that to signify quite a lot of changes. I embrace the change. Windwalker was a mess before Legion, now it's in a solid place. Without change, we would have been completely screwed. On the other hand, Mistweaver got a very large overhaul, and i had to relearn it from scratch. I actually prefer this one, even tho I am sad we can't fistweave.

Assassination rogues went from. Mutilate, Mutilate, Mutilate, rupture / envenom... to the same thing, but with Garrote. Not a huge amount of changes there.

This experience with the classes is subjective. I love the changes so far, in the classes I have played. I enjoy Ret and I don't like Holy pally anymore, so I don't play it. I love Windwalker, and I have adapted to Mistweaver. I love assassination, and can't do Sub... That's ok.

If any of you worked in video games at all, you would know that it's a job of passion. The hours are shit, the pay is middling (compared to other software jobs) and the work is thankless (our community sucks). To come out and claim that Blizzard only cares about money, or Blizzard doesn't give a shit about the game is to show a level of ignorance that is criminal. Blizzard makes mistakes, they screw up, it's a complicated system with a lot of variables, and they are humans.

But to go so far as to deny their intentions is to have no idea how the video game industry works. We aren't talking about some micro-transaction generic app creating factory, we are talking about one of the most successful game studios in the world. Believe me, while they are just as flawed as all of us, they are passionate about their product.

This. Anybody that calls Blizzard lazy and that they "don't care" is giving an overly simple answer to an overly complicated scenario. Software development is hard. I don't think most people on this forum or the community at large actually understand this. That's not to say you have to agree with everything Blizzard says/does. But take it with a grain of salt.

[Deleted]

Boring to you, maybe...

Fun as shit for me...

Well... fun to you, boring as shit to me.

I honestly can't fathom what you find fun about it as you are always doing the same thing over and over. It just changes a bit when you get a BoW proc. Crusade just makes you do everything faster, as does the tier bonus. Nothing changes, crusade is the only viable 100 talent. But i guess some people can find repetition fun... *shrugs* It's beyond me.

With that said, it's a general problem across the defective legion class design.

[TheVaryag]

I feel like Blizzard has some kind of internal mandate, that they *MUST* fundamentally change every class for every single expansion. To a point, I can follow the logic -- that maybe players would be burnt-out if their rotation never changed after a decade -- but the degree to which they've done it, to the point of actually altering the identity of entire Classes, I think has finally taken its toll.

At least for me, it has.

Now, I'm not going to sit here as say "Woe is me, Blizzard has ruined the game". And, contrary to some posters I've seen, I still believe Blizzard has an incredible standard of quality for gameplay.

However, because of the constant tinkering and "re-imagining" of character classes and specs, I feel like I've reached a point where I'm just like, "I'm done. Call me when I can just PLAY the game."

For the first several years, I really struggled with WoW. The character I actually wanted to play was an Arthas-like Death Knight, but at the time, the Ret-Paladin seemed the closest analogue for that (at least Lore-wise, it made sense). Once Death Knights were finally added, I felt like I'd finally found the character for me!

Except... they kept tinkering with them. And changing their identity.

Eventually, I decided to switch to a Rogue. And I enjoyed it. Until the next expansion, because again, Blizzard kept making changes.

So, I adopted a Warlock. And the experience was great. And then, again, Blizzard changed everything.

For the entirety of Warlords of Draenor, I played but could never find a class I truly enjoyed. And now, in Legion, I dislike playing every class.

The shame is, for the first time since Wrath of the Lich King, I feel like the Lore is actually kind of important again. I'm not really feeling the direction they're taking Illidan (and the whole idea of him being a "Champion of Light", and the Holy Nathrezim basically feels like a re-tread of the Draenei), but at least it feels like the story is moving again.

I dunno. At this point I'm not sure where I stand on WoW; I love the locations I've seen (save for Stormheim; I feel like the Forsaken influence totally killed the vibe there), and I really love the idea of Class-based stories. But I just can't find a class I actually enjoy *playing*, despite having enjoyed so many in the past.

TLR below:


I feel you man, but then I've always stubbornly stuck to a Fury warrior, even at times when It was the "Least optimal DPS class" and people yelled at me (In heroics nonetheless) that I'm playing a bad spec. I never cared, haters gonna always hate, I just played the spec I always enjoyed.

Your thing was Arthas, well mine was Grom Hellscream. I wanted to be that blademaster, badass angry orc that murders everything. But then I found having double one handed weapons was more fun since Vanila, so I did that. Even In wrath when Titan's Grip talent was Introduced, which let you have double two handers In each hand. Of course you could ignore that talent and keep double one handers Instead and spec Into that Instead.

And overtime, I felt like I hated the changes to Warrior, from removing Rend/Cleave, to how they've completely redone Warriors In Legion. I didn't even mind how we were given Wild Strike as our Rage-dumping ability In Mists, that was fun. But they've made Fury so boring In Legion I just had to go for Arms, not just for PvPing, but PvE. I mean just the combo potential of Avatar + Spiky Ability thing from your Artifact that puts Colossal Smash on your targets, which Increased damage they take + Batte Cry so you can crit 100 % and finally Bladestorm was a powerful DPS combo both In PvE and PvP. Especially In PvP If you hamstring your target or shockwave them first.

But that's the thing, -that- combo feels like the only viable "Rotation" to go with If you want to be useful as a warrior, cleave Is nice to have again, but It feels... wrong somehow. Not to mention I hate the new animations for the attacks, as I expected each race to have their unique animations, not just have new animations for everyone, and therefore all races feel samey as well, no matter the class you're playing. And Rend... that's just useless, nobody even goes for that. It's nice we get Rend again, but It's completely and utterly useless.

Toppled with that, I've had a Paladin, Rogue and Priest since Vanila wow and I've never liked how they've been changed as well, from a paladin just spinning around with Divine Storm, to Rogue's subtlety being unoptimal and not fun, to a priest's Holy spec not having Holy Fire anymore which... was just a fun and iconic ability to me. As well as a Death Knight since Wrath ofcourse, and I went with this fun hybrid talent tree, with mostly Blood (Back when Frost was the tanking spec) and some talents In Frost, that made me strong, I duel wielded weapons and had a powerful Howling blast as I recall, or maybe It was Icy touch I'm not sure.


TLR: My point being: Their concentration on class fantasy this expansion Is subjective. Everyone finds their own "class fantasy" by the abilities their classes use, or how they feel, either mobility, damage, heal or tank wise. And I've lost my class fantasy this expansion, everything that made me feel like I'm playing my fantasy class Is gone. And even spinning around like Grom Hellscream with a powerful Bladestorm combo Isn't fun. And that's not even mentioning the largest amount of Utility abilities we got removed for NO apparent reason which would've kept a good portion of people's class fantasy with them. Where's Hunter traps for all hunters? Where's Lichborne for DKs? Where's multi-spec spells for a mage? Your mage Isn't just a fire mage, or a frost mage he's an ARCHmage.. that means multiple abilities from multiple schools, sure I'm glad to be a fire mage with concentration on fire and burning, but that doesn't mean I've lost the ability to cast a frost or arcane ability.


Not to mention the fact that In the past few years, people have been banned left and right, for either botting or exploiting, or otherwise and that's GOOD. However, there's people left In the crossfire like me, and my friends. And even myself, who has been a victim of hacking - I still haven't been returned my account after a year and 9 months of writing tickets, emails and phone calls. Even though I've proven to them I was hacked, they don't care. Instead they assume I just "Shared the account on purpose" I mean firstly, assuming something doesn't make It evidence. That's like saying In a court of law "Well we assumed he did the crime, we have no evidence though, he's guilty!"

It's bizzare, even after playing for 12 years this game, and loyally playing for every, single, month loving this game so much, I still get banned just like that, no answers, nobody talks to me, loyalty to a company DOESN'T MATTER. Even to a company like Blizzard that thrives on people's loyalty and that's how they can afford to charge such bizzare prices for their games and expansions. Because fanboys.

Minor rant over. And my point of that was... Blizzard has lost track of their fans and rewarding loyalty, and banning people's accounts without making investigations or checking the evidence you provide is so bad. And clearly they haven't been coming to the community with feedback on class changes, they keep to themselves HEAVILY for the last 7-8 years now. Thinking to themselves "We've got this idea to show you, you'll love It!" - "We don't please change It" - "But you'll really like It.. trust us!" and then they fail miserably instead of going back to the sensible route of "You don't like It? Oh well.. okay we've made changes, do you like It now?" - "Seems reasonable, that might work!"

They do not communicate with the community anymore - that Is the major factor In most of these complaints, both class and account related. And I felt to put In the account related stuff as It connects with how they don't want to change Classes according to how we wish It.

[hyphnos]

It's the "middle child syndrome".
Big brother (cyclical players). He is the BIG brother, the foundation of the family.
Little sister is the favorite child (hard core scene), she is the cutest and she needs the most attention (raids), also she is good, she does what mom and dad tells her to do. She can do nearly anything she wants, maybe there is some limit (split runs, endless mythic farms, clever use of game mechanics).
And then there's the middle child aka everyone else, they have to suck up things and live with it, because mom and dad have no time for them. They are in a grinder all the time. So if Big bro is happy with changes all the time, and lil sis is also okay with it, then the middle child must suck up and do what the others do.

There were times when it was good to be the middle child in wow tho.

Yes, but whether big brother and little sister tolerate constant changes and regard them with indifference doesn't really make the case for constant changes that make the other larger set of customers unhappy. I suspect that the hardcore raiders would be more interested in newer, different raid mechanics than the labels and order of the buttons they smash - as they will master that aspect of the game until they no longer think about it anyway. So where is the demand side that drives the constant revamps? It looks to me more like a dev side thing where they either believe the nonsense they spout about people getting bored or they are simply filling out a budget and justifying x people's jobs doing shit that doesn't need to be done because they can't figure out to productively spend that money on actual content.

[Jiai]

I suspect that the hardcore raiders would be more interested in newer, different raid mechanics than the labels and order of the buttons they smash - as they will master that aspect of the game until they no longer think about it anyway. So where is the demand side that drives the constant revamps? It looks to me more like a dev side thing where they either believe the nonsense they spout about people getting bored or they are simply filling out a budget and justifying x people's jobs doing shit that doesn't need to be done because they can't figure out to productively spend that money on actual content.

Sure we would just want an infinite flow of content. In real life, it just doesn't work this way, even with a HUGE amount of money.

[Milotic]

I feel like Blizzard has some kind of internal mandate, that they *MUST* fundamentally change every class for every single expansion. To a point, I can follow the logic -- that maybe players would be burnt-out if their rotation never changed after a decade -- but the degree to which they've done it, to the point of actually altering the identity of entire Classes, I think has finally taken its toll.

This. It made me not want to play anymore. All I want to do is play my warlock, pick a class vision and stick with it, please.

[Constraint]

I wouldn't mind Blizzard changing the classes every expansion if they weren't making them consistently worse with each iteration since MoP.
For me, Mists was the high point of the game and I've been playing since vanilla. I never agreed with those saying that the ability bloat was bad for the game, I enjoyed having tools for every situation. But then again I'm also the same guy who in other games hauls around 6 different weapons, or tries to learn every spell in the game so I have as large of a toolkit as possible, because I enjoy picking from multiple options.

Ever since MoP, it was pure hell for me and I finally gave up after Legion. Every single time they touched the classes they took away more and more and just kept simplifying. Back then, starting from TBC, I was always looking forward for the next expansion alpha leaks and I was like a kid before Christmas opening his presents when they announced new spells and abilities for my class. This turned around, and in the last few years I was literally scared of what I'm losing next.

I'm 100% agreeing with this guy.

I didn't like that much about MoP, but from a class gameplay point of view, I honestly thought it was top notch, besides the new talent "trees".

But I'll never understand Blizzard's "pruning" logic. It's so completely brain-dead in my opinion. The notion that "new players will be overwhelmed by so many abilities, and they may press the wrong ones and that feels bad" is just so hilariously stupid. A new minesweeper player may press a few mines when learning. We should make the mines visible, or lower the number of mines, or give you a chance to re-think your decision when you press your first 3 mines per game. Ok, bad example, but hopefully you see what I mean - games SHOULD have a learning curve.

But the sheer stupidity of removing certain spells, and the reasoning behind their removal, is staggering. Just as a quick example: I hate Ret personally, and have never mained one, but removing Hammer of Wrath, just because executes are apparently a Warrior fantasy, when Ret's had it since what, TBC(?), is just tragic. Same with Kill Shot, although I think that came about in WotLK. It adds excitement to the rotation when you hit that 20%. It takes a rotation from being static to somewhat dynamic. And I really, really don't understand their justification for removing things like that.

And all this contributes towards the fact that classes don't work together anymore, with a very few tiny exceptions. It's no longer a raid group and parties within that raid group bringing symbiotic benefits to each other. It's just every class and spec doing their own thing. All DPS bring almost nothing but DPS. If you can top dps, and kill the right targets at the right times, you're valuable. If you don't, you're less valuable. That wasn't always the case. But that's an argument for another thread.

[hyphnos]

Sure we would just want an infinite flow of content. In real life, it just doesn't work this way, even with a HUGE amount of money.

Since when would the resources wasted on constant class changes work out to be able to produce infinite content? I never claimed that infinite content was possible using finite resources just that the resources available could be put to better use and that realistically Blizzard gains very little from changing specs so much every expac.

[Berengil]

There's a free trial up to lvl 35. The story starts up slow, but really picks up after a while, especially in the expansion.

I just hope you don't mind cutscenes, as there are a lot of them. FFXIV is probably the most story-based MMO I've played (besides maybe FFXI), so if you're not that into the story aspect of MMOs, well, you've been warned :P

I must be some kind of idiot, I suppose. Awhile back I took advantage of a 14 day free trial for FFXIV. Nice character creation.

I wandered around that little town/village in the starting area for like half an hour trying to figure out what to do. I had a quest to kill ...fungataurs? Couldn't figure out where to go. Kept hitting loading screens as I wandered into areas that didn't seem to have any quests or any direction of what I should be doing.

Gave up, logged out, and uninstalled.

One thing Blizz does very well is not leaving you in the dark about where you should be heading if you want to progress, and not just wander off and explore. That's okay too though, if that's what you want to do.

[Claymore]

I've played FFXIV, and while I love that game, I'll totally concede that it's not a great experience starting out. I spent my first, I dunno, two or three hours literally running around the city, because I expected to be *told* to go out and kill things. It definitely puts the burden on players to take the initiative. Still, it's a game worth checking out, I think, even if it's not for everyone.

Back on point, though... It's just super disappointing. I love the idea of jumping in and collecting all these new Artifact Appearances -- especially if Blizzard is talking about removing them after this expansion (but... why?) -- but I just logged in again lastnight, and just couldn't enjoy playing any of my characters. I tried switching to specs I haven't touched in a long time -- like Prot Pally -- but there's just nothing that I enjoy now.

Like I said, it just feels like I need to just wait until next expansion, when they radically shift everything AGAIN, and see if I enjoy anything then.

[Vuagnon]

Play a ret paladin...DO IT! IT CALLS TO YOU!

And see the real deal.

[Neviriah]

FFXIV is probably the most story-based MMO I've played (besides maybe FFXI), so if you're not that into the story aspect of MMOs, well, you've been warned :P

I think you forgot SWTOR. This game basically is only story. So much so, you sometimes forget it's MMO! lol <3

[Akka]

I think you forgot SWTOR. This game basically is only story. So much so, you sometimes forget it's MMO! lol <3

Wait, it's a MMO ?

[Neviriah]

Wait, it's a MMO ?

I know right? :P Unbelievable. - But I still love it, even if only for the fact that it has so much story.

However, sure- nothing beats WoW. Am I right?! :3

[Akka]

I know right? :P Unbelievable. - But I still love it, even if only for the fact that it has so much story.

TBH, I always considered SWTOR as a decent single-player RPG that somehow ended up online.

However, sure- nothing beats WoW. Am I right?! :3

*cough*

[Neviriah]

TBH, I always considered SWTOR as a decent single-player RPG that somehow ended up online.

*cough*

I think SWTOR is a great game. Though I agree, sometimes it does seem more like single player RPG that ended up online. - Which is somehow funny, because it ... kinda works!?

Come on. MMORPG wise, I guess WoW is still King. Always has been for a while and.... most likely will still be - for a while.

I am not saying there isn't any other good MMO out there. But it always depends on personal preference I guess . Or maybe I'm just a Blizzard-Fangirl!? We will never know... :3

Generally there is so many good games out there though. Ugh... So many games, so less time!

[Jerakal]

You could just PLAY the game instead of obsessing over minor gripes.