Most Germans don't think racial profiling is a problem: poll

[Deleted]

im german and im fine with it. many endangerers are brown/black/middle east.
i want to see what america would do if they stop being so islamophobic and let some refugee come to them
i bet they get the nice nsa treatment and get monitored 24/7

[May90]

Discrimination, restriction of human rights, extending Governmental powers... all of those things aren't up for debate here. You're missing the point. The police has a legal framework in which they can act on their own. That's not uncommon, that's how policing works. You're exaggerating my argument a bit heavily and creating a doom and gloom scenario that simply doesn't exist. Our privacy protection rights far, FAR exceed anything the the US or heck, even the EU has. We have the strictest privacy protection on the entire fucking planet. But a checkpoint in this context? No man, you're way out of line with your line of reasoning. This is quite outside any reasonable proportion regarding the context.

A checkpoint is not a problem at all. A checkpoint that targets individuals of a certain race, however, is. Not just because of some abstract ideas of equality... But also because it has many following implications, and one of the main ones is the break of trust between citizens and the police.

In the US this trust is broken for multiple reasons: racist past (and present), individualist society, safety getting a big ground over freedom after 9/11, lack of strict regulations on what police officers are allowed to do and what not... But in Germany and many other countries, the situation with trust is much better. I see no reason to destroy it just because of a temporary refugee crisis.

Allow the police to legally discriminate against certain groups of people, and the gap between the police and the society will start growing, at some point resulting in societal instability. Which will force the government to take an even harsher stance... I think it is clear where I'm going with this.

My main point is, the system in Germany is working fine as it is. There are some things to improve, but such basic elements as racial equality from the police point of view are not something I would eliminate. The alternatives are worse.

[Slant]

im german and im fine with it. many endangerers are brown/black/middle east.
i want to see what america would do if they stop being so islamophobic and let some refugee come to them
i bet they get the nice nsa treatment and get monitored 24/7

You know, I am having a really hard time presenting a moderate view when people like you enter the discussion with "many endangerers are brown/black/middle east".

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You have little to no clue what I think of the police. You took the smallest slice of my views on them specific to what I was discussing here and blew it up into a complete philosophy.

Ok, so you're flip flopping on your argument then? Go ahead, tell me how you love the police. :P

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A checkpoint is not a problem at all. A checkpoint that targets individuals of a certain race, however, is. Not just because of some abstract ideas of equality... But also because it has many following implications, and one of the main ones is the break of trust between citizens and the police.

[...]

My main point is, the system in Germany is working fine as it is. There are some things to improve, but such basic elements as racial equality from the police point of view are not something I would eliminate. The alternatives are worse.

This checkpoint didn't target individuals of a specific race or looks. The very reason why Nixx is having his pants in a twist is because Germans were checked as well, I guess. Perhaps. He's too ambiguous to nail him to an exact point, to be honest. :P

[May90]

This checkpoint didn't target individuals of a specific race or looks. The very reason why Nixx is having his pants in a twist is because Germans were checked as well, I guess. Perhaps. He's too ambiguous to nail him to an exact point, to be honest. :P

Well, I don't like too many checkpoints as well. But I was talking strictly about racial profiling in that comment.

[Deleted]

You know, I am having a really hard time presenting a moderate view when people like you enter the discussion with "many endangerers are brown/black/middle east".

and? it the truth. white islamists like pierre vogel are pretty rare.

[Slant]

Well, I don't like too many checkpoints as well. But I was talking strictly about racial profiling in that comment.

In general, I'd say if profiling based on justified evidence just so happens to coincides with "a group consisting of Syrians", then so be it. I wouldn't shy away from it just because it might leave a false impression. People will believe what they want to believe. I think that's what happened here. And the saddest part of it is that the police gets beaten over the head for it. Luckily only from the foreign press. The national press has generally been writing favourably about this.

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and? it the truth. white islamists like pierre vogel are pretty rare.

All Islamists may be brown, but not all brown are Islamists... ponder on that for a few minutes.

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The issue is not black and white like you seem to think. The police are useful and generally cooperating with them is fine, but you need to be vigilant because strengthening the police directly weakens your rights. You should not accept police authority without question, but neither should you reject it without good cause. We're talking about a policy that is pretty directly an abusive expansion of police power, so naturally the vigilance and wariness aspect of the relationship will be emphasized.

Wow... if I spent as much time on thinking about my relationship with the police as you clearly have... I'd... have no life.

[May90]

In general, I'd say if profiling based on justified evidence just so happens to coincides with "a group consisting of Syrians", then so be it. I wouldn't shy away from it just because it might leave a false impression. People will believe what they want to believe. I think that's what happened here. And the saddest part of it is that the police gets beaten over the head for it. Luckily only from the foreign press. The national press has generally been writing favourably about this.

The only way I could somewhat agree with it is if, instead of racial profiling, there was a background profiling. For example, Israel does that a lot: if you arrive to an airport and you are from one of the "problematic" (Israel-unfriendly) countries, then you are a subject to extensive search and background checks. Again, I strongly dislike this, it is outright discriminating - but it, at least, makes a logical sense.

However, stopping everyone who is, for example, black, because blacks are above average in terms of crime levels - that is a no go.

[Slant]

The only way I could somewhat agree with it is if, instead of racial profiling, there was a background profiling. For example, Israel does that a lot: if you arrive to an airport and you are from one of the "problematic" (Israel-unfriendly) countries, then you are a subject to extensive search and background checks. Again, I strongly dislike this, it is outright discriminating - but it, at least, makes a logical sense.

However, stopping everyone who is, for example, black, because blacks are above average in terms of crime levels - that is a no go.

Well, no.. that's just stupid. On the other hand, checking everyone because the danger level is increased is pretty much okay in my book.

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That says some rather unflattering things about your cognitive abilities.

He shoots and he scores! This, ladies and gentlemen, has got to be one of the most impressive cheap shots in this game! Did you see that? He just ran up and whacked it into the net! Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool!

[Deleted]

All Islamists may be brown, but not all brown are Islamists... ponder on that for a few minutes.

so you use racial profiling to filter them and find the islamists.

stell es dir vor wie aussieben. es gibt keine simplere und effektivere methode islamisten zu finden.
es ist halt am effizientesten eine klare definierte personengruppe zu überprüfen.
rassistisch? ja, aber es ist der effektivstes preventive schutz. und mir ist die sicherheit wichtig

[Super Kami Dende]

Racial profiling isn't an issue to me. Since generally it is based on a per capita statistic of crimes committed by certain groups.

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All Islamists may be brown, but not all brown are Islamists... ponder on that for a few minutes.

Wut. I have known/met plenty of White/Black Muslims. It's why I laugh at people that call people "racist" for criticizing Islam, since literally any person can convert to it.

[Slant]

so you use racial profiling to filter them and find the islamists.

stell es dir vor wie aussieben. es gibt keine simplere und effektivere methode islamisten zu finden.
es ist halt am effizientesten eine klare definierte personengruppe zu überprüfen.
rassistisch? ja, aber es ist der effektivstes preventive schutz. und mir ist die sicherheit wichtig

For the sake of the others, I'll translate briefly:

Think of it as sieving, there is no simpler and more efficient method to find islamists. It's most efficient to find a well defined group of persons. Racist? Yes, but it is the most efficient preventive protection. And safety is important to me.

As soon as you admitted the racism, your argument went out the window because the constitutional court just deemed your argument unconstitutional and thus irrelevant.

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Wut. I have known/met plenty of White/Black Muslims. It's why I laugh at people that call people "racist" for criticizing Islam, since literally any person can convert to it.

Thanks for joining the conversation. The use of "may be" as a modal verb indicates a probability, not a certainity. I'm not buying into the looking at skin colour tactic myself, for various reasons. Yours is a good one, as well. It's why I posted what I posted. The crucial part in that sentence is the second bit, where I pointed out that definitely not all "brown" people are islamists.

As I pointed out, it may take a few minutes to let the meaning sink in. Note the modal verb again.

[Deleted]

it dont change the fact that most of germany think the same.
tell me how you would prevent attacks without racial profiling. in a realistic way, not wishthinking.
you know the same as me that the german policeforce got reduced and now germany is boosting its police again but it take some time.
how can you do it the most convenient and efficient way?

[Super Kami Dende]

Thanks for joining the conversation. The use of "may be" as a modal verb indicates a probability, not a certainity. I'm not buying into the looking at skin colour tactic myself, for various reasons. Yours is a good one, as well. It's why I posted what I posted. The crucial part in that sentence is the second bit, where I pointed out that definitely not all "brown" people are islamists.

As I pointed out, it may take a few minutes to let the meaning sink in. Note the modal verb again.

Is English your Second language?

[Shaktard]

Racial profiling is good and needed because its not the native german population.. you know, the white ones, commiting the vast majority of crimes.
Is it "racist"? Yes it is. Doesnt make it wrong though.. just a logical conclusion.

[Youn]

Are you living in Germany, and have seen something like that happening personally? I really, really doubt that this ever happened - and if it did, there definitely would have been serious consequences for the policemen.

OT: Are (some) people still upset over the police keeping away some 'Nafris' from the New Years Eve celebration?

This actually happened when I was stationed at Nelligen Barracks in Stuttgart in 1991.

[Techno-Druid]

see, there is one problem i got with the #notall shit we always hear. Its the fact that if you look at which demographic group was responsible for 99% of the terror attacks over the world. Yes its #notallmuslims...but from the incidents that happen is way to fucking often them. Its like with handys and smartphones, yes not all handys are smartphones but all smartphones are handys.

I meant not all North Africans/Maghrebi people...regardless of religious affiliation.

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All Islamists may be brown, but not all brown are Islamists... ponder on that for a few minutes.

Incorrect. Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab aren't "brown". Neither are most Islamists of Russian or Iranian origin.

[Annamarine]

We need more racial profiling. Sorry but when they make it their mission to kill me, my wife and my kids I will make it my mission to keep them safe. They can go home and stay the fuck out

[Runenwächter]

You sound like Höcke. And obviously, you have his mindset.

Dont try to accuse others of hypocrisy, if you cant stand for your own opinion publically because you are scared of forum consequences. I know where you come from, "Runenwächter".

Yeah thats as far as you go with vague personal insults and veiled threats.

You demonstrated publicly how little you understand about the most rudimentary application of legal principles. Do you think you can glaze over that by throwing around insults and accusations at others to distract from that?

[Deleted]

This actually happened when I was stationed at Nelligen Barracks in Stuttgart in 1991.

I am positive that it would not happen today.

[Slant]

Is English your Second language?

Yes, is this relevant?

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Incorrect. Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab aren't "brown". Neither are most Islamists of Russian or Iranian origin.

They're a very dark shade/light of brown if you pay attention... :P

Are you telling me I'm using racist terms wrong? Sorry, I don't know how to racist properly...