What made classic wow better than current?

[Kallisto]

Even a minor one would have savagely dismantled guilds in vanilla.
Imagine train boss.

Now imagine mythic train boss (if you've ever done that)

I don't want flashback nightmares tyvm XD

[Charge me Doctor]

1) This was often because of things like incomplete toolkits, but yes, you have a "point" here. That being said I remember duoing most content cus tanky pet+hybrid heals could do mostly everything.

I still don't understand people who say "you had to group with people to do content", well, now you don't have to and you don't do that - tells more about you, than about the game, especially when you bring "social game" argument in there. If you like being social - form your groups for leveling. If you don't do that - you just want other people to be social with you, while providing nothing in the first place.

2) You can tell exactly what's going on right now, if you're paying attention. That's the exact point, they want you to pay attention. You could afk autoshot most of T1-T6.

Hey wow there m8 if you got TPed on mother shahraz you had to, like, walk away or everyone, eventually, died, if you didn't resisted the curse. Or you had to, like, totally not stand in front of her (unless you are a tank), how do you afk auto-shot that?!

3) Another symptom of incomplete toolkits, led to "hybrids heal lol"

Poor druids. So many times they've been yelled at for shifting into a cat and tank dying, because he got 3 crushing blows in the face and druid had no mana because he had no indication of how mana he has left in a cat form. Good thing that people realize later that not using their toolkit is usually way to go, because all your mana is reserved for healz.

4) Yes it was.

For your first or second character it definitely wasn't. But who the fuck has his "first" or "second" character ever in WoW in 2017?!

5) No, not really. I feel the same way about weapon upgrades now as I did then. The difference is that unlike vanilla, there were alternatives. Yeah, getting a DFT felt good, but the fact that you'd likely have to wait months again to see another if you didn't get it? Lol. What was it, 5 drops for 40 players? Yeah that's 100% bull.

Also - reserved loot and DKP. "Too bad that you are week late for raiding with us - this rogue who dies on every encounter but feeds me flasks has more DKP than you".

[tyrs ankle]

I still don't understand people who say "you had to group with people to do content", well, now you don't have to and you don't do that - tells more about you, than about the game, especially when you bring "social game" argument in there. If you like being social - form your groups for leveling. If you don't do that - you just want other people to be social with you, while providing nothing in the first place.

Hey wow there m8 if you got TPed on mother shahraz you had to, like, walk away or everyone, eventually, died, if you didn't resisted the curse. Or you had to, like, totally not stand in front of her (unless you are a tank), how do you afk auto-shot that?!

Poor druids. So many times they've been yelled at for shifting into a cat and tank dying, because he got 3 crushing blows in the face and druid had no mana because he had no indication of how mana he has left in a cat form. Good thing that people realize later that not using their toolkit is usually way to go, because all your mana is reserved for healz.

For your first or second character it definitely wasn't. But who the fuck has his "first" or "second" character ever in WoW in 2017?!

Also - reserved loot and DKP. "Too bad that you are week late for raiding with us - this rogue who dies on every encounter but feeds me flasks has more DKP than you".

Do you not understand what the word most means? 1 fight out of 3(actually 6) raid tiers that you had to pay attention.

Druids weren't the only hybrid class, and I'm more referring to pigeonholing. As in if you were a class that could cast a heal, you healed at endgme.

Leveling in classic was a chore. It was something you endured. I don't have rose tinted goggles, I remember being a paladin in felwood @ level 53 and considering quitting because it just wasn't fun. I remember getting spam feared from bats in EPL on my rogue and getting that stupid dot from the gargoyles that made you unable to regenerate health. I remember "witherbark shadow priest attempts to run away in fear" in Jintha'alor and the 20,000 mobs that followed him.

DKP? lol. That has nothing to do with the fact that with 5 drops on a 15-20 item loot table meant that you'd likely never see the item you needed for months. Even with BC increased drop rates/smaller raid sizes, my guild that killed kael pre-nerf and had TK on farm for months saw one warp spring coil for the entirety of TBC. One.

[Yarathir]

Classic is older, and therefore seen with more of a rosy tint. Bugs, flaws, irritating design decision, texture bugs, awkward gameplay and all that aren't as clear to you today as they are in the Legion expansion you are experiencing right now.

Add to that the desire to be seen as cool, and some will pretend they were around during "the good ol' days" for extra credit and start to believe their own hype.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't understand people who say "you had to group with people to do content", well, now you don't have to and you don't do that - tells more about you, than about the game, especially when you bring "social game" argument in there. If you like being social - form your groups for leveling. If you don't do that - you just want other people to be social with you, while providing nothing in the first place.

Agreed, this also annoys me at times. No one took away your ability to be social if you want to and really love the social element. In fact, you have way more tools for it today than in Classic or The Burning Crusade. It's just not forced anymore. If you aren't social ingame because of that, that's all your fault, not Blizzard's fault for not forcing you to be nice anymore.

[InfiniteCharger]

That's not "skill". That's "time commitment"


Please. A sizable portion of the raid groups were made of inexperienced players that were there just to fill 40 people in the raid group. And, again, raid fights were MUCH simpler back then. Ragnaros is a much, much simpler fight than Xavius, for example. "Skill"? You almost didn't need skill, in comparison.


Raids today are the same thing. They are tuned around gear. And "not very forgiving"? Please. You could have 5-10 people dead and still beat the fights. Want 'not very forgiving'? Do some mythic raiding, in Legion.


Why don't you compare it to the hardest mode possible, instead of taking the cheap route and comparing it to the easiest modes?


So instead of having to worry about threat, tanks now worry about surviving and properly rotating their defensive skills. If you think mana management isn't a thing... I wonder if you wandered into progression fights in mythic or later heroic raiding in Legion.

The underlying point is that with the game mechanics and the average gear level of most players during vanilla made it near impossible to down bosses in raids even with 40 people. You had to have the RIGHT 40 people with the right levels of gear and the right level of skill with said gear to beat the bosses. So even if the raid encounters were simpler that doesn't make them easier for the people playing at the time factoring in the game play as it was THEN. And because there was only one difficulty, it was tuned to be hard or near impossible unless you had the exact right combination of gear, classes and proper usage of available abilities (skill).

Like I said, if it was so easy, they would have been downing bosses the 1st day of a raid opening and everyone would have been decked out in purples on launch of TBC and most players weren't.

The game today is totally different and really you can't even compare the two. And like I also said, the idea that players could just run in on day one of a raid and out gear the raid and down the boss was NOT POSSIBLE because the game wasn't designed for that to even be remotely possible. And the game today explicitly designed for things like that to happen. The difficulty is irrelevant to this because again the current game is totally different and is designed for that to exist, which means the current game makes it easier to not only do a raid but down bosses. That was not a thing in Vanilla.

*Right click, inspect.*

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Put any major raid boss from the past 3 expansions (Normal, Heroic or Mythic). Swap them with any boss from Vanilla and the bosses from the last 3 raids would become outright guild killers with their mechanics and complexity alone.

You're not arguing with normal players when you say "Vanilla raids were harder." you're actually arguing with Method/Serenity/etc who are all in agreement that the difficulty in modern raids dwarf those from before.

See above. Difficulty is relative. In the current game a random group of average geared players can go into a raid and down a boss. That was not possible in Vanilla for numerous reasons already mentioned. But most obviously, most players in Vanilla didn't have the appropriate gear level to allow any random group of players to run in and have any chance of downing a raid boss, especially early in the raiding cycle. Which is why only well organized guilds were routinely running raids and having success at it to some degree, but even then most guilds weren't farming raid bosses before TBC. And as a matter of fact, that old style 40 man raid content is still around in the form of world bosses.

[Daffan]

Classic is older, and therefore seen with more of a rosy tint. Bugs, flaws, irritating design decision, texture bugs, awkward gameplay and all that aren't as clear to you today as they are in the Legion expansion you are experiencing right now.

Add to that the desire to be seen as cool, and some will pretend they were around during "the good ol' days" for extra credit and start to believe their own hype.

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed, this also annoys me at times. No one took away your ability to be social if you want to and really love the social element. In fact, you have way more tools for it today than in Classic or The Burning Crusade. It's just not forced anymore. If you aren't social ingame because of that, that's all your fault, not Blizzard's fault for not forcing you to be nice anymore.

Woah texture bugs! Now that I know I'l never like older WoW's again

[Yarathir]

Woah texture bugs! Now that I know I'l never like older WoW's again

It's just an example of one of many flaws that a game can possess at one time, but be forgotten (smoothed over) by lost or fuzzy memories. Whereas if you deal with it in Legion, it's fresh in your memory/you might deal with it daily.

[Daffan]

It's just an example of one of many flaws that a game can possess at one time, but be forgotten (smoothed over) by lost or fuzzy memories. Whereas if you deal with it in Legion, it's fresh in your memory/you might deal with it daily.

To be honest I doubt anyone really cared about small things like that

There are big parts of New WoW (Legion etc) that is phenomenal, I still like it a lot. e.g Flex is amazing, so is premade/crz.

But also things of Old WoW, maybe not the talents and crappy rotations - but philosophies/design concepts that made it great for a lot of people, despite some of the horrible gameplay. e.g Linear Prog, less welfare/catchup.

[Yarathir]

To be honest I doubt anyone really cared about small things like that

There are big parts of New WoW (Legion etc) that is phenomenal, I still like it a lot. e.g Flex is amazing, so is premade/crz.

But also things of Old WoW, maybe not the talents and crappy rotations - but philosophies/design concepts that made it great for a lot of people, despite some of the horrible gameplay. e.g Linear Prog, less welfare/catchup.

That's okay. My post wasn't supposed to cover it all. The general point was that for a lot of people, details become fuzzy with games that they used to play years ago, which makes it hard to compare to the games they play today.

[SirBeef]

Nothing made it better IMO. There were some spots that I enjoyed more but that may have been becasue it was the first time I played WoW. 12+ years later it's hard to get those same feeling even experiencing new content. But overall, I feel WoW has just gotten better and better.

[Akka]

This is what I mean. "much simpler rotations". There were no rotations in Vanilla. Period.

There were. Simpler, but there were. The biggest difference is actually not in rotation simplicity but speed.
In Legion as a (assassination) rogue, I have to keep rupture and garrote up, and use two damage CD (Vendetta and King's Bane), using a 55 energy combo creator (Mutilate) and using any excess point with the Envenom finisher.
As a combat rogue, I had to keep rupture and slice'n'dice up, and use two damage CD (blade flurry and adrenaline rush), using a 60 energy combat creator (backstab) and using any excess point with the Eviscerate finisher.
There is a few tricks to maximize output (like timing King's Bane with Envenom, combining CD so they enhance each other) which are a bit more numerous in Legion, but as you can see, both are pretty close when it comes to the content of the rotation.
The real noticeable difference is, as said, the speed : it's twice as fast as getting energy back in Legion, and I get combo points by two or three instead of one.

I openly admitted there are certain things about Vanilla, such as good gear being more rare, having to sap and CC targets, class comp mattering... that are favorable. The point is that they are few and far between.

And you're wrong here. They are not "few and far between", as the core differences permeate the entire gameplay and the entire game experience.
Having completely different classes means that it's something I feel 100 % of the time I'm playing. Having a different fight design (like managing threat and resources) means it's something I can enjoy 100 % of the time I do a boss fight. Having an open world which is not faceroll is something I enjoy 100 % of the time I'm leveling. Having slower gearing, slower content consumption, means that 100 % of the time I'm playing I've a long-term objective/something to look for.

The very basis of nostalgia is when you remember only the good times. This is my entire point. No one here is saying that everything in Vanilla was terrible. But talking about the glory days of the generation previous is nothing new. The concept of forgetting the heartache and selective memory is not something that was introduced in Vanilla WoW.

Yeah, and that's precisely the annoying part : you're insisting on this idea of "nostalgia" and "selective memory" and "forgotting the bad part" even when it's entirely (and verifiably) false.
When someone HAS BEEN (and still IS) playing Vanilla for the last six monthes, claiming he "forgot the bad part" is ridiculous - what, he's forgotten what he did the previous day ?
When someone list design elements he likes/dislikes and someone brings nostalgia, it's completely nonsensical - what, I don't like AoE because nostalgia ? What does this even mean ?
When someone actually never played Vanilla and says "I tried it recently and yeah it's good", how can he even have nostalgia about something he never played before ?

99 % of the time, "nostalgia" completely misses the point and is just a convenient buzzword. It pollutes any discussion and is typically just a sign the person using it doesn't want to listen to anything and just wants to dismiss every argument without even looking at them.

So yes, saying Vanilla was amazing has to be primarily based on nostalgia or the fact that the person did not actually play.

Case in point : you just ignore every argument given and make a (false) sweeping generalization. See above.

Just look at any Vanilla raid mechanic. They had to be tuned for 40 people so they were brain-dead easy. Go look at a Vanilla raid boss kill. You have people mouse-clicking abilities. The fact of the matter is, it was never more difficult and it never incorporated more skill.

Simplistic and myopic argument. It's not because it wasn't as twitchy that it necessarily required less "skill" - it required a different kind of skill. It's like saying a strategist is less skilled than a tactician.
Obviously MC was easy - it's no surprise that it's always the example used, kinda like if I used LFR to claim that Legion requires no skill. Maybe Mythic today raiding requires more skill than Naxx40 ? I don't really know, I don't trust the claims of people with obvious bias and shortsighted evaluation, and in the end I don't really care, because one main point for liking Vanilla was the unique difficulty instead of have huge disparities between countless difficulty levels.

Now if you want to sit there and tell me that you enjoy the incredibly mundane grinding of Vanilla, you like the fact that it was easier but more realistic, you like not getting gear for weeks and slowly climbing tiers of content, you like having to go back to previous tiers to gear up new guild members, you like slowly leveling... Or any of the other things I mentioned in previous posts -- so be it.

Yeah, I much prefer that. I'm someone whose enjoyment of games has a strong relationship with immersion, and WoW has become less and less immersive.

I would just love to see you actually stick with it and never return to Legion because "Vanilla is so much more enjoyable" to you.

I play Legion because my guild (which is full of real-life friends that I've known for between 10 and 25 years now) plays it. If not for them, I would have stopped since WotLK (though I immensely enjoyed MoP leveling, sceneries and worldbuilding, which I rank as, by FAR, the best in whole WoW, so I guess there is that). I still have played about twice to three times more on legacy servers than on retail in the meantime, and I confirm how better it is.

But don't sit there and tell me that Vanilla actually took skill or that it was harder to play a class, or that classes had more utility or that playing was less spamming or any of the other stuff you're claiming Vanilla was like because you're being intellectually dishonest. It all sounds like a serious reach to defend your nostalgia or some regurgitated thing you hear your favorite YouTuber say.

You're confusing your blindness with my dishonesty.
Class being less spammy in Vanilla is plain easily verifiable fact.
More variety is also true, though it requires more intellectual honesty to admit it.
The claim that people were unskilled then is an empty one that has been debated multiple times. It is mainly based on looking at video while ignoring all the underlying stuff and design changes so even if some part of it might be sometimes true if taken in a certain way (already a stretch) it's still a pretty meaningless argument.
To sum up, seems just a lot of self-projection at work here - maybe you could just be more intellectually honest yourself when presented with arguments you don't want to agree with ?

[Charge me Doctor]

To be honest I doubt anyone really cared about small things like that

I know, right, no warrior used to break their keyboard mid-dungeon when they charge through the ground and have to take resurrection sickness.

[Jagd]

I wouldn't say Vanilla was strictly better in every sense, it was just vastly different. I feel leveling was better overall, mob difficulty, quest rewards being sporadic, being rewarded with talent point or new rank of abilities every time you level, seeing your stats increase, leveling up more weapon skill and defense. Compare to leveling in legion, you go stretches with getting nothing at all, with no challenge at all. Gear rains from the sky at every turn, as mobs die in 2 hits in quest greens, zones outleveled by the first handful of quests in some cases. 1-2 dungeon runs and the quests you were doing are now worthless. It's at this point you resign yourself to just LFD to cap because obviously the game would rather you do it this way. How can you create an immersive open world game when this is how you treat it? You can't build an attachment to the game world this way. Instead Blizzard has released "World Quests" as a way to force you to run around in it, the time spent out in the world working towards something is instead replaced by the same quests for eternity with a random reward too potentially good to just ignore. Don't want to make the landscape too big, but want it to feel epic, so they put in artificial "tiers" to the landscape to make the world feel bigger to traverse than it is, resulting in the abomination of mountain paths with single entry points all over the place.

I felt the difficulty of the day to day made making friends more of a necessity. You would interact with people more often in a more meaningful way than currently. The other thing was Vanilla has a lot of convoluted strict RPG elements that are gone from todays game. Undercity was the only place you could learn to use swords and 2h swords, Org for axes, TB for guns. Hunters had so many RP elements compared to today, you couldn't imagine them ending up where they have. Ammo bags, ammo, pet hunger and loyalty. Shamans had totems in their bags, with special quests to get them. Warrior weapon quests and quests to give your stances. Druids learning forms from special quests and trainers. All of these requiring you to go to far away places that sparked an adventure on it's own. Again, nothing but world immersion and forcing you out of a comfort zone, to situations you may end up meeting someone in. But the KEY element here, is you didn't feel like interacting with that person would get in your way, slow you down or otherwise inconvenience you, so you just roll with it. Doing legion world quests, I don't want to know about other people. The quests are super quick, easy, and frankly grouping with you would do nothing but slow me down, and I would barely know your name before it was all over and you need a world quest completely opposite to mine, nice knowing you, prob never see you again.

I also felt RP elements to class WAS lacking, but I recognise Legion is a step towards regaining that and look to the future with anticipation.

Many new race animations / models now suck and kindly request a do-over closer to vanilla essence. My orc is now a floppy idiot instead of cool (obv again personal opinion here)

- - - Updated - - -

I know, right, no warrior used to break their keyboard mid-dungeon when they charge through the ground and have to take resurrection sickness.

Hardly exclusive to discussions on vanilla, bugs have existed in every expansion, some worse. Also don't think this is a texture bug, rather a skill or world bug.

- - - Updated - - -

Classic is older, and therefore seen with more of a rosy tint. Bugs, flaws, irritating design decision, texture bugs, awkward gameplay and all that aren't as clear to you today as they are in the Legion expansion you are experiencing right now.

Add to that the desire to be seen as cool, and some will pretend they were around during "the good ol' days" for extra credit and start to believe their own hype.

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed, this also annoys me at times. No one took away your ability to be social if you want to and really love the social element. In fact, you have way more tools for it today than in Classic or The Burning Crusade. It's just not forced anymore. If you aren't social ingame because of that, that's all your fault, not Blizzard's fault for not forcing you to be nice anymore.

The rosy tint arguement really doesn't hold water. Vanilla IS being played right now to this day, there are people out there still doing it and it appears to be holding the interest of a large number of people for extended time periods.

Absolutely the game took away a large portion of the social element. Nothing requires me to group with people from my server for anything. The game has become convenience and speed, both of which are severely hindered by the social element rather than enhanced. This results in LESS people willing to expend energy into it. It is also why LFD is most times a toxic experience in complete PUGs, as any issues with party members is often seen as hindering the above. There is also no way to force LFD to selectively choose from only your own server, the only place you can invite people to your guild for more challenging content. The end result is less people willing to open up to you in casual environments, and meeting people as if you are alone in NYC, everyone a passing face never to be seen again.

[Charge me Doctor]

The rosy tint arguement really doesn't hold water. Vanilla IS being played right now to this day, there are people out there still doing it and it appears to be holding the interest of a large number of people for extended time periods.

People playing private servers right now are not playing vanilla. It's not vanilla anymore. It was (and could be) back then - but now vanilla is pretty much dead, because of how much information there is about it. You wonder where to quest? Back in the days you either spammed chat and got bunch of dicks in return and grinded scorpions, now you just go to any database and search through, or look for a one of million half-assed guides on "how to do X on Y private server!"

[Jagd]

People playing private servers right now are not playing vanilla. It's not vanilla anymore. It was (and could be) back then - but now vanilla is pretty much dead, because of how much information there is about it. You wonder where to quest? Back in the days you either spammed chat and got bunch of dicks in return and grinded scorpions, now you just go to any database and search through, or look for a one of million half-assed guides on "how to do X on Y private server!"

The prevalence of information isn't going to somehow make it not vanilla, it just makes it less of a "shiny new" experience. But lets face it, it's 2017 and the general gist of the game is the same, you aren't going to suddenly be lost in wonder unless you really were trying wow for the first time at which point you don't know mmo-c etc even exist. All you really told me here is "vanilla was hard, I had to ask for help because I was a complete newbie at this particular game" due to the fact of it being..new

[Dergiab]

People playing private servers right now are not playing vanilla. It's not vanilla anymore. It was (and could be) back then - but now vanilla is pretty much dead, because of how much information there is about it. You wonder where to quest? Back in the days you either spammed chat and got bunch of dicks in return and grinded scorpions, now you just go to any database and search through, or look for a one of million half-assed guides on "how to do X on Y private server!"

Strange, I always used Thottbot back then. Very useful database for me in the classic days.

[Heathy]

the group quests weren't that great though even though it was nice to have those around, they only worked well when there were ppl around to actually do them, a lot of them were skipped because it was always more effective to keep questing or farming dungeons than spend 1hr or more trying to find someone on that particular group quest.

the best group quests were probably the ones at the start of TBC because they were entry group quests that everyone wanted to do because it gave you a trinket that was good until probably 65. but it was setup in a way that meant most ppl got to do the quest because it wasn't in some obscure location that no one goes to any more, they were right there at the beginning. lets face it though they suffered the same problem in the end with ppl spreading out some ppl flying through the content while others took their time, i skipped a lot of group quests because it was just quicker and easier to do regular quests and farm dungeon runs, the time it takes standing there spamming local for more for group quest is about the same time you can spend looking for a dungeon run or just doing 2-3 regular quests for the same exp as that one group quest.

lets not pretend that ppl playing on private servers are doing it for the awesomeness of vanilla and probably because they are cheapskates that can't or won't pay the subscription fee.. its easy to like a game that doesn't cost you anything to play it.

last time i checked there were about 20k ppl playing ultima online forever. thats free, i wonder how many ppl are playing that because its amazing and not just because its free.

[voidillusion]

Strange, I always used Thottbot back then. Very useful database for me in the classic days.

Petopeia was also an amazing site on its own... now it's just a catalog of different skins...

[Akka]

It's just an example of one of many flaws that a game can possess at one time, but be forgotten (smoothed over) by lost or fuzzy memories. Whereas if you deal with it in Legion, it's fresh in your memory/you might deal with it daily.

Or simply they are considered irrelevant details, while the beef with Legion are more fundamental and actually prevent an enjoyable experience ?

I know, it's just impossible that some people might like a different design, it MUST be nostalgia, or the whole universe is going to collapse !

[Ielenia]

The underlying point is that with the game mechanics and the average gear level of most players during vanilla made it near impossible to down bosses in raids even with 40 people. You had to have the RIGHT 40 people with the right levels of gear and the right level of skill with said gear to beat the bosses. So even if the raid encounters were simpler that doesn't make them easier for the people playing at the time factoring in the game play as it was THEN.

You didn't need the "right" 40 people. You needed classes, not players. And some of said players didn't even have to be skilled, as long as they had the right class and right spec. And you also say vanilla raid fights were unforgiving? Please, around 10-20% (using a low estimate) of the raid groups were people who were literally taken in because they had a 'class quota' to fill, not because they were good players. And a lot of the time? They weren't good players.

Today's raid fights, though, those are really unforgiving. In progression fights, losing a single person can easily mean a wipe, especially on fights with tight enrage timers. Especially on smaller groups.

And because there was only one difficulty, it was tuned to be hard or near impossible unless you had the exact right combination of gear, classes and proper usage of available abilities (skill).

They were 'tuned' to right combinations of classes. Gear? Only if it's resistance gear, which, as we established before, it's just time commitment, not skill. 'Proper usage of available abilities'? Please. Vanilla had a myriad of abilities... but only very, very few found themselves into the rotation. The rest? Situational at best.

Like I said, if it was so easy, they would have been downing bosses the 1st day of a raid opening and everyone would have been decked out in purples on launch of TBC and most players weren't.

Why don't you compare it with the hardest mode, Mythic, then? Besides, in Vanilla, you didn't have guild groups that would go to the PTR and document their fights with the raid bosses, so they could have boss strats and videos the day the new content goes live, right?

The game today is totally different and really you can't even compare the two. And like I also said, the idea that players could just run in on day one of a raid and out gear the raid and down the boss was NOT POSSIBLE because the game wasn't designed for that to even be remotely possible. And the game today explicitly designed for things like that to happen.

No, it's not.

The difficulty is irrelevant to this because again the current game is totally different and is designed for that to exist, which means the current game makes it easier to not only do a raid but down bosses. That was not a thing in Vanilla.

You say 'difficulty is irrelevant' now, but you didn't have any issues comparing Vanilla raiding to the easiest raid difficulty in the game right now? Nice double-standard.