Legion PVP compared to MoP

[rda]

I was reading some threads discussing WoW PVP in MoP. It striked me how many things we lost.

Just look:

1. Set bonuses.
2. Trinket procs.
3. Gems.
4. Enchants.
5. Reforges.
6. Glyphs.
7. Tons of class abilities - no, that's not compensated by honor talents, they together with artifact are maybe a third of what we lost.
8. NO RANDOM GEAR.

Plus, obviously, clear cap on power difference that was much smaller than it is now. With clear and quick path to close that gap reliably playing casually.

Plus easy entrance and quick catch-up for alts.

And many other things, some related (like not being forced to PVE or farm-farm-farm-farm), some not (like affordable transmog gear from prior seasons).

I mean, I knew that we lost quite a bit, but just look at the list. It's humongous.

What the F does Legion add to compensate for that? What is it????? I see nothing. I mean, for real, it's not a pose. I see nothing. Not just nothing comparable, nothing at all. It kind of promised better balance, we all know how it turned out. OK, I see one arena, that must be it.

Is it any wonder that PVP is in the trash can? A rhetorical question.

[sheggaro]

Pvp is not a priority.

[rda]

Pvp is not a priority.

Not just that - it'd be one thing if PVP had next to no updates. But it got effing stripped naked. It's not simply that PVP isn't a priority, it feels like PVP is a playground for rookie devs to try their hands on (I don't mean to say that it is, just that it is so completely neglected and spit upon that it feels like that).

[Krusza]

Why did you have to pick one of the shittiest expansion to compare to Legion though lol.

Apart from the start of S12, MoP was actually a good expansion gameplay-wise. Terrible content-wise.

Cata was good, but legendaries and cunning ruined it, MoP finally did away with the PvE gear.

TBH, it was probably the best expansion gameplay-wise. Not for any of the reasons OP stated though.

- - - Updated - - -

I was reading some threads discussing WoW PVP in MoP. It striked me how many things we lost.

Just look:

1. Set bonuses.
2. Trinket procs.
3. Gems.
4. Enchants.
5. Reforges.
6. Glyphs.
7. Tons of class abilities - no, that's not compensated by honor talents, they together with artifact are maybe a third of what we lost.
8. NO RANDOM GEAR.

Well, the reality of it was that with enchanting, reforging, and gemming, everyone used the same shit. At the start, everyone gemmed resilience (which got nerfed), then PvP power (which got nerfed) and then their main stats, there wasn't any depth to it. Reforging was the same, getting rid of hit and expertise until you reached soft cap then putting it into your best stats you could.

For a lot of specs, you wouldn't ever change glyphs either. I do miss them a bit though.

Set bonuses didn't really add depth, either.

These things aren't what made MoP good, what made MoP good was the gameplay. Until S15, inflation was down on the ladders to where it should be (about 2400-2500 glad cutoffs) which made the ladder much cleaner. Most specs actually had some form of depth to them, they felt rewarding to play. There's no gap between good and bad players in Legion, you have no utility left to show it. All there is to arena now is damage, and as a result T1 comps dominate anything else and there's no reason to play anything else as you have nothing to "outplay" with anymore. Throughout MoP there were actually tons of viable comps, obviously every season had it's "fotm" comp (Thug, PHP, LSD2 as I can remember at various points) and balance was actually pretty good after S13.

[Resentless]

I was reading some threads discussing WoW PVP in MoP. It striked me how many things we lost.

Just look:

1. Set bonuses.
2. Trinket procs.
3. Gems.
4. Enchants.
5. Reforges.
6. Glyphs.
7. Tons of class abilities - no, that's not compensated by honor talents, they together with artifact are maybe a third of what we lost.
8. NO RANDOM GEAR.

Plus, obviously, clear cap on power difference that was much smaller than it is now. With clear and quick path to close that gap reliably playing casually.

Plus easy entrance and quick catch-up for alts.

And many other things, some related (like not being forced to PVE or farm-farm-farm-farm), some not (like affordable transmog gear from prior seasons).

I mean, I knew that we lost quite a bit, but just look at the list. It's humongous.

What the F does Legion add to compensate for that? What is it????? I see nothing. I mean, for real, it's not a pose. I see nothing. Not just nothing comparable, nothing at all. It kind of promised better balance, we all know how it turned out. OK, I see one arena, that must be it.

Is it any wonder that PVP is in the trash can? A rhetorical question.

All of those things you listed, baring tons of class abilities, were barriers to entry. You then say "plus easy entrance and quick catch-up for alts". Maybe WoD had quick catch up, but MoP sure didnt and i played the shit out of that expansion. Will admit, the gems, enchants, glyphs and reforging are all customisable things that I'm sad have been removed overall tbh, made the game feel more like an MMO, and the random gear thing is very much the worst thing about current pvp, and it would be nice if now that there are set bonuses in pve with the tier set that our main pieces also gave us a set bonus. Maybe even the same one as in pve. Then again, things like that and trinket procs are what keep newer players down, but perhaps if it was just relegated to that it'd be ok.

MoP was actually a shambles in terms of class abilities, and that was after they had merged certain spells from cata. Not in that there were too many, but there were too many that did too much. Everyone had some overpowered cooldown, druids symbiosis was broken as hell and they let BM hunters run the show for 2 seasons straight. It sucked. At least the classes have some kind of personality in legion, though it sounds like they did in WoD too.

I'm starting to dislike the whole template thing, since the point was that they would be able to finely tune each class and spec specifically for pvp, but they still make these sweeping changes to specific spells instead of going with the small template changes so in reality it just kills immersion and makes you feel weaker. Should add resilience back as a stat to your template (cant get gear to boost it) and just edit it for each class till we're at a good level.

This patch has made me remember how awful blizzard is at balancing the game, despite going to all these lengths in legion to make it easier for them. :/

[RelaZ]

All of those things you listed, baring tons of class abilities, were barriers to entry./

Yeah but catchup mechanic made the barrier to entry < 1 week towards the end of the season, and before that most people weren't fully geared either (especially at lower ratings). Nowadays you have to have 54 traits (s3), ilvl 870+ (this is the only one where there is some lee-way) and full/all important honor talents before anyone will want to take you seriously at all.

So in comparison to Legion MoP barriers to entry were almost non-existant.

MoP was actually a shambles in terms of class abilities, and that was after they had merged certain spells from cata. Not in that there were too many, but there were too many that did too much. Everyone had some overpowered cooldown, druids symbiosis was broken as hell and they let BM hunters run the show for 2 seasons straight. It sucked. At least the classes have some kind of personality in legion, though it sounds like they did in WoD too.

I want to preface my comment to this by saying that yes, I played a lot of Feral in those days but I never played Jungle (s12/s13).

Sure everyone had something broken, but that's just the point - everyone had something broken. And sure BM might have been king balance-wise for a bit too long, but it was a hell lot more fun to play. You'd use your broken things to try to outplay your opponents broken things, unlike Legion where no one has anything and it's all just a damage spam race with minimal cc, especially in the case of Feral (but lots of specs apply, compared to previous expansions).

Some of the "broken" things of MoP was obviously too broken (such as long distance gateway, symbiosis for Resto Druid, PS+Cyclone for Ferals), but with just toning down some of those things the game could've been so much better than it is today. This is what most PvPers were originally hoping for with the WoD #prune, but Blizzard went way overboard in the name of "heterogenity" and on top of that introduced new ridiculous unskilled mechanics (new Trap mechanic, Freezing Arrow for example).

[Rascal Bob]

PvP is just not what it used to be. The feeling I had when playing the game with my friends or even randoms is mostly gone. I used to encounter quite a few people in game while finding arena's and doing my other stuff, had a cool active rbg guild who did their weekly fun stuf etc. Had lots of players with whom I could do the most boring stuff but due to the fact we would be chatting, skyping or whatever it would still be fun. In MoP you had duels&wpvp ( this is the most absurd, idiotic, mongoloid, fucked up.. did I mention idiotic? it has ever been.) Now the dueling scene even on horde which in my experience was a little bit bigger just died out. Now it could just being me having played the game for too long, but just looking at the ladder activity on sites like xunamate/arenamate and what not indicates that a lot of people share the same feeling.

Now I have denied it for a while both in game and maybe here as well, but PvP is just bad right now.

Yeah sure you can do rated pvp and even though I don't like the current path blizzard is taking with pvp it isn't really any more or less balanced then pvp always has been. Warriors were INSANE in MoP and not just for a few weeks or days like some classes are now but seasons. The problem I have right now with this system is that it's all over the place, normally you would have one class that was OP. You could deal with that it would sorta get normal, still really annoying but you could play around that. But now due to big nerfs and buffs that come overnight, untested(hotfixes) and in very short time spans some classes go from shit to god, even more insane then warriors in MoP. Then they get nerfed a few days later and they sometimes become utter shite, but that doesn't matter since the damage has already been done. They farmed their rating and are now sitting at the top doing nothing. You didn't have the time to figure out a good counter strategy/comp vs that op class but it doesn't matter anymore since you'll have a new class to worry about now since the new hotfix has been released. This is especially troubling with the "deal damage, need no brain" way pvp is right now because raw percentages on abilities meen far more then if we were still killing mostly/only in cc windows.

Also, the side things you could do are gone, duels and wpvp in general isn't in a good state, it feels like you're running around in a Questing zone but you're wearing heirlooms so you oneshot everything, there is no excitement because the fight really just only lasts a few seconds..."everything goes" fuck the dev who came up with that idea.

Random battlegrounds are boring, most of the cool plays you could make or fun buttons you could press have been pruned since MoP, now this was present in WoD as well but at least you still had the other stuff. Won't start about Rated bgs.

healing is a shitshow with the current damage heavy game style, a lot is just pve'ing which feels horrible from a healing standpoint since you just cant outheal the damage. If you're freecasting, your teammates shouldn't die it's just that simple.

The difference in skill used to be really apparent between a team who interrupted at the right moment vs a team who would either not do it often enough or on times it didn't really matter. Those tiny bits in PvP that made you better are now just far less apparent, comp is a real deciding factor and people who would normally play around 2k-2.4k can suddenly be gladiators, because their comp can suddenly become way to strong due to a hotfix and people don't get the time to figure out counterplays, the class get nerfed(heavily) and said player will bench that class and pull in that free glad title.

I have the attention span of a goldfish, I like to do new stuff. I can't just play one character and play him the entire expansion. I'm a semi hardcore pvp altoholic, I usually have beteween 3-5 classes I play because I need the change. I sometimes heal then do some ranged dps and other times a melee dps. If you got bored you leveled up your character ( assuming you have most of them sitting at previous expansion level.) Jumped into PvP, got wrecked hard for a day or two due to gear, maybe more depends on how long you play and then you were all set. Now to be even just viable I need honor lvl 46, artifact knowledge/power and do pve for those extra ilvls(third relic slot etc.)

And I can go on for quite a while but I've typed enough for today.

I just can't do it, haven't booted up WoW in quite a while. I'll probably return to get some rating or whatever when I get bored but Legion in terms of PvP is quite the let down. I have enjoyed my fair share of PvE this expansion however which I normally don't even try.

[Resentless]

Yeah but catchup mechanic made the barrier to entry < 1 week towards the end of the season, and before that most people weren't fully geared either (especially at lower ratings). Nowadays you have to have 54 traits (s3), ilvl 870+ (this is the only one where there is some lee-way) and full/all important honor talents before anyone will want to take you seriously at all.

So in comparison to Legion MoP barriers to entry were almost non-existant.

I want to preface my comment to this by saying that yes, I played a lot of Feral in those days but I never played Jungle (s12/s13).

Sure everyone had something broken, but that's just the point - everyone had something broken. And sure BM might have been king balance-wise for a bit too long, but it was a hell lot more fun to play. You'd use your broken things to try to outplay your opponents broken things, unlike Legion where no one has anything and it's all just a damage spam race with minimal cc, especially in the case of Feral (but lots of specs apply, compared to previous expansions).

Some of the "broken" things of MoP was obviously too broken (such as long distance gateway, symbiosis for Resto Druid, PS+Cyclone for Ferals), but with just toning down some of those things the game could've been so much better than it is today. This is what most PvPers were originally hoping for with the WoD #prune, but Blizzard went way overboard in the name of "heterogenity" and on top of that introduced new ridiculous unskilled mechanics (new Trap mechanic, Freezing Arrow for example).

Sorry, but the pinnacle of high skill pvp to me is not "using your overpowered cooldowns to outplay other peoples overpowered cooldowns". WotLK was some real skilled shit, and everyone had a niche. The only faceroll comps were TSG in s8 and beast cleave. Yeah, sure you didn't play jungle, but ferals were also amazing until what... season 15? the last one? They murdered every single caster, could not be rooted, had instant clone and after 2 incarnations you had nothing left and they would just kill you. And no, playing against BM as a caster (or anyone actually) was not a hell of a lot more fun to play than legion or any other expansion. BM was the literal cancer of this game and it TRULY baffled me how they could go on as broken as they were for so long. Readiness! WHY? Taking away rogues prep for the start of the xpac but not readiness from hunters when i was shown time and time again that it was the DOUBLE bestial wrath, DOUBLE stampede and DOUBLE scatter+trap that was destroying people.

Google Kettu 3 and see how much skill and fun BM was to play.

it's all coming back to me now... 1 minute cc chains from godcomp/mld, thug cleave at the start of s13, rmd in s14, lsd s15 extremely fun and balanced comps to play against. not. Instant cyclone from ferals, Shadow in s12 basically a second healer while rotting your team, and 1 million defensives. Mages with frost bomb oh christ.

No, that expansion was a colossal failure of class balance in pvp. It was not fun until s14 where at least you felt like you were being outplayed, but that all went away when casters scaled hard (as they always do) and the hour long caster cleave mirrors were awful once again. Legion pvp in comparison to that is absolutely lovely. CC is plentiful and can still be fairly long (rogue blind into sap into poly from mage) but except the first week of 7.1.5, no one has been getting one shot, no one is sitting in 1 minute cc chains, I can play my character, still have scary and cool cooldowns.

Theres a fair bit wrong with legion pvp, but class balance and gameplay enjoyment aint the issue. The entire process is missing flavour through tier sets/named teams/BUYABLE AND NOT RANDOM GEAR/character customisation through reforging+glyphs+enchants+gems etc, but dear me MoP was a shithole for class balance.

[rda]

Theres a fair bit wrong with legion pvp, but class balance and gameplay enjoyment aint the issue.

I started writing a reply defending MoP, but then I found this and it became clear that this is a waste of time.

The other issues you are saying are real are, of course, legit. But class balance and gameplay enjoyment. In Legion. After the F***G 7.1.5. You must be on crack to say that they aren't the issue. Or, more likely, you didn't PVP in 7.1.5 and maybe didn't PVP much in Legion either, and you are saying that balance "seems fine" because you haven't really seen it.

[Volitar]

MoP was a shithole for class balance.

I'm pretty sure almost every PVPer will tell you that MOP was probably the most balanced expansion

[rda]

I'm pretty sure almost every PVPer will tell you that MOP was probably the most balanced expansion

Compared to 7.1.5, MoP is heavens.

[xZerocidex]

I'm pretty sure almost every PVPer will tell you that MOP was probably the most balanced expansion

I felt that MoP in general was the pinnacle of class design.

[Deleted]

Yet another rda thread believing that gear will suddenly make pvp great again when it was garbage from its inception

[rda]

Yet another rda thread believing that gear will suddenly make pvp great again when it was garbage from its inception

No, just returning gear isn't enough. This is not an enumeration of things which, once returned, will fix it all. They also have to fix the balance, for example.

You can't read, no surprise.

[RelaZ]

Sorry, but the pinnacle of high skill pvp to me is not "using your overpowered cooldowns to outplay other peoples overpowered cooldowns". WotLK was some real skilled shit, and everyone had a niche. The only faceroll comps were TSG in s8 and beast cleave. Yeah, sure you didn't play jungle, but ferals were also amazing until what... season 15? the last one? They murdered every single caster, could not be rooted, had instant clone and after 2 incarnations you had nothing left and they would just kill you. And no, playing against BM as a caster (or anyone actually) was not a hell of a lot more fun to play than legion or any other expansion. BM was the literal cancer of this game and it TRULY baffled me how they could go on as broken as they were for so long. Readiness! WHY? Taking away rogues prep for the start of the xpac but not readiness from hunters when i was shown time and time again that it was the DOUBLE bestial wrath, DOUBLE stampede and DOUBLE scatter+trap that was destroying people.

Feral got nerfed heavily after season 13, did you even play during the time?

No one who's saying they want MoP back is saying they want MoP s12 back. They want s14/s15 back. Yes, WotLK was good too, but I personally think it's too far from current design to even dream of getting something like it back.

And you're even making my argument for me, Readiness gave access to double tons of things - it gave good Hunters a way to show that they're better than inferior Hunters. Something that we don't have left in the game today. Removing Prep was obviously a mistake aswell.

Google Kettu 3 and see how much skill and fun BM was to play.

Sure, BM might not be the best example, but compare it to BM of Legion and it's better in every single way (especially pre 7.1.5) except for the part that it did too much damage. Gameplay-wise playing it, and playing against it, was better. It just did too much damage because of bugged stampede. And again, people advocating for MoP don't mean MoP s12, they mean s15 which according to a lot of PvPers was actually one of the best seasons ever. In s14/s15 no one played BM anymore.

it's all coming back to me now... 1 minute cc chains from godcomp/mld, thug cleave at the start of s13, rmd in s14, lsd s15 extremely fun and balanced comps to play against. not. Instant cyclone from ferals, Shadow in s12 basically a second healer while rotting your team, and 1 million defensives. Mages with frost bomb oh christ.

S14/S15 was amazing. Everyone who actually played high rated back then will tell you it was much better than Legion.

No, that expansion was a colossal failure of class balance in pvp. It was not fun until s14 where at least you felt like you were being outplayed, but that all went away when casters scaled hard (as they always do) and the hour long caster cleave mirrors were awful once again. Legion pvp in comparison to that is absolutely lovely. CC is plentiful and can still be fairly long (rogue blind into sap into poly from mage) but except the first week of 7.1.5, no one has been getting one shot, no one is sitting in 1 minute cc chains, I can play my character, still have scary and cool cooldowns.

hour long cast cleave mirrors did not exist in s14/s15 as dampening was introduced. Either way long castercleave mirrors always existed (even in wotlk, which was also good) before dampening. I'd much rather have a long tactical game where eventually good CC wins the game over current gameplay where it's all just "damage damage damage" to the point that stuff like WW/DK (or Turbo of WoD) is highly viable.

Yeah Rogues can do some CC, but the spec (sub) got skilled CC gutted and the gameplay overall fucked up. Shoegazing or some other actual Rogue player could tell you much more about this than I can. Most classes lost tons of CC/utility to the point where they are but a shadow of their former self. The issue with MoP was that it took too long for them to make changes to broken things in order to make things even. The gameplay overall was much much better though.

The entire process is missing flavour through tier sets/named teams/BUYABLE AND NOT RANDOM GEAR/character customisation through reforging+glyphs+enchants+gems etc, but dear me MoP was a shithole for class balance.

Yeah, class balance was pretty meh for a large part of MoP. But people who say MoP was great mainly mean S14/S15 - which was one of the seasons with the highest amount of t1 comps ever - and to a massive amount of PvPers (most of whom have now left the game) the gameplay was much much more enjoyable than WoD/Legion.

Theres a fair bit wrong with legion pvp, but class balance and gameplay enjoyment aint the issue.

I think you'll find actual high rated PvPers will disagree with you on the gameplay enjoyment part. Some faster paced MoP gameplay (higher overall damage, lower damage boost on CDs) would be amazing for this game, PvP wise. If you havn't noticed a massive amount of the complaints regarding Legion PvP is that it's just not fun and that it's just "a damage race" and how people feel they "just cant do anything", and it's all because everything fun/skillful has been pruned.

- - - Updated - - -

The biggest mistake of WoD was the pruning of DR categories, imo. Instead of nerfing/removing the dumb MoP insta-cc, blizzard went full retard.

Yeah, sadly these new DR categories make it highly unlikely we will ever see Scatter+Trap mechanic ever return in any useful form (combo exists in Legion but DRs both Incap. and Disorient schools so as such is completely useless unless you're running with classes having no CC at all - again enforcing the boring and stale "spam damage and win" gameplay of Legion).

[Dahkeus]

I was reading some threads discussing WoW PVP in MoP. It striked me how many things we lost.

Just look:

1. Set bonuses.
2. Trinket procs.
3. Gems.
4. Enchants.
5. Reforges.
6. Glyphs.
7. Tons of class abilities - no, that's not compensated by honor talents, they together with artifact are maybe a third of what we lost.
8. NO RANDOM GEAR.

Umm...yea, and that's a good thing. Many of those required a big investment into PvE content, such as raiding in order to allow a PvP player to be competitive.

As for the class abilities, I know the pruning was controversial and it did clip out some good stuff, but it also cleared out a lot of junk that were either useless in PvP or that were extra key presses which didn't add much to gameplay depth.

What the F does Legion add to compensate for that

Honor talents. This allowed for better balancing for PvP vs PvE (notice that I said 'allowed for' and am not saying that balance is somehow great now).

One of the big reasons I quit WoW around Cata was the massive grind needed (and often needed within PvE) to get competitive gear for PvP. It sucks getting blown out of the water, no matter how well you play, just because someone sunk in a ton of time to raiding. This is why I switched to GW2 for PvP and didn't come back to WoW until Legion.

[Schattenlied]

Pvp is not a priority.

All the more reason blizzard shouldnt have wasted a ton of time making this new system that most people hate.

- - - Updated - - -

Honor talents. This allowed for better balancing for PvP vs PvE (notice that I said 'allowed for' and am not saying that balance is somehow great now).

The pvp templates accomplished that just fine on their own, honor talents were pointless in that regard.

And even then, blizzard has since at least WoD had the ability to alter an ability's damage/healing specifically and only against players, they already had a seperation between PvE and PvP balance...

The PvP templates have actually now caused other problems entirely... Every time blizzard nerfs primary stats or Versatility on the template to reduce a specs damage, if that spec's survivability also relies on their primary stat, such as heals and absorbs that scale through attack power or weapon damage, their survivability also gets nerfed as a consequence of them getting a damage nerf... Ret Paladins' Flash of Light lost somewhere around 25-30% of it's power when 7.1.5 landed because of template nerfs for damage, Blessing of Kings, despite getting a 33% buff when 7.1.5 landed doesn't absorb for any more than it did before the patch because of template nerfs for damage, Justicar's Vengeance heals less because of template nerfs for damage, and Shield of Vengeance absorbs less because of template nerfs for damage... All of Ret's survivability aside from bubble got fucked over because of nerfs directed at damage, and blizzard doesn't give enough of a shit to fix it... If they were still having to nerf a class' damage by individually adjusting ability damage, this wouldn't have happened.

PvP templates were a good idea on paper, but in practice they are a fucking trainwreck.

[RelaZ]

Umm...yea, and that's a good thing. Many of those required a big investment into PvE content, such as raiding in order to allow a PvP player to be competitive.

As for the class abilities, I know the pruning was controversial and it did clip out some good stuff, but it also cleared out a lot of junk that were either useless in PvP or that were extra key presses which didn't add much to gameplay depth.

In S15 neither of those required any PvE time investment, unlike Legion artifact power, gearing and even honor talents (wqs give tons of honor).

Almost no keys whatsoever "were just extra key presses", the only ones like that were the dps cds that people just macrod together (and no one is complaining they're gone). And again, almost all keys pruned did "add a lot of gameplay depth" so you're wrong. Everything that's used in PvP adds tons of depth, even small things like Growl (Hunter) and Soothe (for Feral) adds tons of gameplay depth and possibilities for a good players to excel and show their skill.

Honor talents. This allowed for better balancing for PvP vs PvE (notice that I said 'allowed for' and am not saying that balance is somehow great now).

One of the big reasons I quit WoW around Cata was the massive grind needed (and often needed within PvE) to get competitive gear for PvP. It sucks getting blown out of the water, no matter how well you play, just because someone sunk in a ton of time to raiding. This is why I switched to GW2 for PvP and didn't come back to WoW until Legion.

Yeah, the grind needed is greater than ever, towards the end of MoP they made PvE gear useless in PvP and added a catchup mechanic (for each week the season went on new chars/unplayed chars could cap 1k conquest, so eventually anyone could gather full set in just a few days).

In Legion they added traits which are both time gated and on top of that take months upon months to farm (probably 3-4 months to get 54 traits for a new player), gear is still relevant (3 players outgearing another team by 20ilvls is a 6% stat advantage - which is incredibly much in any competitive setting). Also PvP gear acquisition is not completely tied to rating and RNG (you don't know which pieces you get, and you will have to farm for titan-/warforged items).

I personally have nothing against the concept of honor talents, I just think they should have more rows (and replace the first and second row with class specific abilities/mechanics and not these passive non-engaging retard alternatives). That would makemore room to make specs to operate vastly different from how they function in PvE (because a lot of specs PvE design just doesn't work in PvP) and add more utility. Maybe they should also make some things auto-granted upon getting specific honor talents (PvP only still though). Things that you don't have to select, sort of like how wod perks worked.

[Resentless]

I started writing a reply defending MoP, but then I found this and it became clear that this is a waste of time.

The other issues you are saying are real are, of course, legit. But class balance and gameplay enjoyment. In Legion. After the F***G 7.1.5. You must be on crack to say that they aren't the issue. Or, more likely, you didn't PVP in 7.1.5 and maybe didn't PVP much in Legion either, and you are saying that balance "seems fine" because you haven't really seen it.

Im currently 2100 rating with like 500 games played this season alone. I play plenty of legion pvp. At the onset of 7.1.5, which has been out for not even two weeks yet, balance was crazy out of whack, completely agree. DH's globaling, frost dks and arcane mages all gloabaling, it was retarded. A week later and it feels like 7.1 again but without a couple of the out of control classes. This is in comparison to MoP where BM was GENIUNELY broken for 2 seasons straight. From MoPs release until 5.4/season 14. Are you aware how long that is? A year. Nothing in this game currently is as toxic as that class was in MoP, not to mention shadow priests, frost mages, resto shamans and resto druids. You put any of those classes in their MoP form into the current game and they would absolutely break it, and you would see how tame the failures of legion class balance (which are still pretty bad, I think blizzard doesnt understand their own game) are in comparison.

That isn't to say legion balance doesnt have its failings. The fact that 7.1.5 was allowed to even go live with some of those class changes like DH and they responded within 24 hrs with SWEEPING nerfs shows that they are extremely out of touch with their game, but as bad as MoP balance? Except for those first 24 hrs of DH, no. Not at all. 1 year of broken BM and feral vs 1 day of broken DH. I know what I would rather deal with.

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I'm pretty sure almost every PVPer will tell you that MOP was probably the most balanced expansion

Compared to 7.1.5, MoP is heavens.

I felt that MoP in general was the pinnacle of class design.

Oh my god.. did we play the same game? In PVE many classes were at their best incarnation ever, warlocks for example, but in pvp? Did you only play s14 or something? I feel like none of you ever played during wotlk or cata. Even cata PvP was more enjoyable than MoP's. I've already said why, but BM hunters existing for A YEAR alone shows how much of a failure blizzard were at handling anything pvp related, balance wise, in that expansion.

Feral got nerfed heavily after season 13, did you even play during the time?

No one who's saying they want MoP back is saying they want MoP s12 back. They want s14/s15 back. Yes, WotLK was good too, but I personally think it's too far from current design to even dream of getting something like it back.

And you're even making my argument for me, Readiness gave access to double tons of things - it gave good Hunters a way to show that they're better than inferior Hunters. Something that we don't have left in the game today. Removing Prep was obviously a mistake aswell.

Sure, BM might not be the best example, but compare it to BM of Legion and it's better in every single way (especially pre 7.1.5) except for the part that it did too much damage. Gameplay-wise playing it, and playing against it, was better. It just did too much damage because of bugged stampede. And again, people advocating for MoP don't mean MoP s12, they mean s15 which according to a lot of PvPers was actually one of the best seasons ever. In s14/s15 no one played BM anymore.


S14/S15 was amazing. Everyone who actually played high rated back then will tell you it was much better than Legion.


hour long cast cleave mirrors did not exist in s14/s15 as dampening was introduced. Either way long castercleave mirrors always existed (even in wotlk, which was also good) before dampening. I'd much rather have a long tactical game where eventually good CC wins the game over current gameplay where it's all just "damage damage damage" to the point that stuff like WW/DK (or Turbo of WoD) is highly viable.

Yeah Rogues can do some CC, but the spec (sub) got skilled CC gutted and the gameplay overall fucked up. Shoegazing or some other actual Rogue player could tell you much more about this than I can. Most classes lost tons of CC/utility to the point where they are but a shadow of their former self. The issue with MoP was that it took too long for them to make changes to broken things in order to make things even. The gameplay overall was much much better though.


Yeah, class balance was pretty meh for a large part of MoP. But people who say MoP was great mainly mean S14/S15 - which was one of the seasons with the highest amount of t1 comps ever - and to a massive amount of PvPers (most of whom have now left the game) the gameplay was much much more enjoyable than WoD/Legion.


I think you'll find actual high rated PvPers will disagree with you on the gameplay enjoyment part. Some faster paced MoP gameplay (higher overall damage, lower damage boost on CDs) would be amazing for this game, PvP wise. If you havn't noticed a massive amount of the complaints regarding Legion PvP is that it's just not fun and that it's just "a damage race" and how people feel they "just cant do anything", and it's all because everything fun/skillful has been pruned.

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Yeah, sadly these new DR categories make it highly unlikely we will ever see Scatter+Trap mechanic ever return in any useful form (combo exists in Legion but DRs both Incap. and Disorient schools so as such is completely useless unless you're running with classes having no CC at all - again enforcing the boring and stale "spam damage and win" gameplay of Legion).

I got challenger and 2.2k in s13, 2k in RBGs. So yeah I played during the time, thanks. Infact, that was when i took PvP the most serious I have ever taken it in my entire 8/9 years of WoW. Ferals did not get nerfed during s13. Jungle cleave was the most OP comp during 5.3, perhaps PHDK beating it out at times. And oh my god, are you saying playing against BM was better then than now? For real? Using readiness/prep effectively is somehow skillful? Scatter+trap+intimidation+silencing shot (while the pet and stampede is murdering someone) and then, heres the big skillful bit: press readiness and do it again. Fun to play against? A single class sitting your healer in 30 seconds of CC while his zoo is murdering your caster who cannot run from the physical damaged ranged class or the menagerie he commands. Thats not my idea of fun gameplay. AND NO, bugged stampede was fixed sometime in s12, not s13 where BM was still the most disgusting class at the time. The fact that they even had "bugged" (lol, blizzard retconning themselves) stampede for more than a week is stupid in itself, but that BM was still horrendously overpowered for all of s13 is simple proof that they were not "skillful" or "fun". Fun for the hunter, and the team he was carrying, alone.

S14 was much better, I agree. Brought back a lot of fun classes and it did finally (after a year: keep in mind we have only had 5 months of legion at this point) nerf BM hunters and made the less retarded MM and survival viable, but still. S15 was wizard land, dampening or not. Don't remember any viable dk teams at that point. Blizzcon finals was an LSD mirror. Speaks for itself really. s14 at least was certainly a more balanced period of the game, but still had stupid symbiosis and CC lasted way too long, and this is coming from primarily a caster at the time (also played rogue). Everything was instant and unavoidable. Not to say it isnt now, but theres less stupid shit to worry about.

Also love all this "higher rated pvp players will disagree" when I remember the shitstorms created during MoP when all the old school pvpers were quitting because of the shambles that s12 and s13 were, both long seasons. s7+s8 and s11 (on the tournament realm) were the pinnacles of competitive arena in this game, and blizzard doesnt seem to be able to recover that feeling. S14 comes after that I suppose, and even those 4 seasons had broken stuff that was easily fixed but blizzard refused. Sometimes I think they want their pvp playerbase to up and quit.

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In terms of pvp,LegION is by far the biggest shit that has been in this game.In MOP and WOD u could see a lot of setups(RMP-RMD-GODCOMP-JUNGLE-DWST-TURBOS-SMOKEBOMBS-WALKINGDEADS-KFC-TSG...)Whit it characteristic way of playing,but now u only see people pounding the keyboard...is very sad...