Chelsea Manning during basic training

[purebalance]

Still not relevant to what I said.

Actually it is.

[niil945]

Guy was in basic training with Chelsea Manning. It seems to me she, he back then wasn't a good fit for the military. They were likely desperate for recruits at that time so they didn't kick her out.

So what you're saying is you have no idea what basic training is like or the silly, idiotic, or just rule-breaking things people do during the first 4-6 weeks as they acclimate to military life. Which is fine, lots of people are ignorant of what the experience is like, but none of those stories are any worse than things I witnessed or even did during my OSUT over two decades ago, let alone stories other people have told me of their basic training experiences. Sneaking candy or smokes while at the PX wasn't uncommon nor was getting caught with that kinda stuff. The same goes for people who were on KP duty who would sneak soda and desserts. People getting so physically exhausted that they can't complete Drill Sergeant's instructions happened almost every single day, if not multiple times a day. We had people passing out and puking regularly in my company. Granted, I did my training at Ft. McClellan, Alabama and started in May so it was 100+ degrees constantly.

[Independent voter]

And if you're from a country who lost troops in Afghanistan, a NATO operation at one point, Chelsea bares some blame for those deaths. She destroyed the intelligence network in Afghanistan that was feeding our side information, Afghanistan civilians acting as operatives.

A lot of those operatives died horrible deaths at Taliban hands once Chelsea made their secret identities public.

[Mihalik]

Second, there is evidence that government cables did result in the death of at least one person. A General reported that those most hurt were the collaborators in Afghanistan. People who gave information to the Americans on where to find Taliban agents had their names publicly disclosed. After this many pulled out and would no longer work with us. One person was killed for his actions by the Taliban. The information network was hopelessly destroyed and the war became even more difficult. Most people aren't aware of this. But let's think about what it means when we think about the people who exist in the Taliban. They use tactics such as intimidation, vandalism, kidnapping and assassination to achieve their goals. Add to this that they hold a grudge. They have existed for decades and decades from when more of our information on the Afghanistan war becomes public, they will act on it. This news will look like little more that "continued violence in Afghanistan" on what few American news outlets talk about it, but it will be from our disclosed information.

That is a rumor that has never ever been backed up with any sort of actual evidence, not even in congressional hearings. Also link please, so I can find sources where this is debunked.

[Skroe]

Big organization. Someone slipped through the cracks of the weed out process. It happens.

- - - Updated - - -

And if you're from a country who lost troops in Afghanistan, a NATO operation at one point, Chelsea bares some blame for those deaths. She destroyed the intelligence network in Afghanistan that was feeding our side information, Afghanistan civilians acting as operatives.

A lot of those operatives died horrible deaths at Taliban hands once Chelsea made their secret identities public.

Yep. And Obama's commuting his sentence was ridiculous, but so typically Obama at the same time.

At least it stays on his record. Bradley Manning: convicted felon. Although he didnt serve the 35 years he richly deserved (and I celebrated at the time), he did serve 7 and the fact remains he was sentenced to 35 years.

It's made funnier by the fact that Obama pardoned his favorite General, Cartwright, who was on his way out of the service anyway, when he probably volunteered to leak the information on STUXNET and Olympic Games to help Obama' cred on the Iran deal. We can never know for sure, but I wouldnt be surprised if that pardon wasn't worked out a long, long time ago.


But that aside, Obama did an interesting thing in pardoning him. First, pardoning Cartwright can easily be seen as a sorry attempt to paper over the manning commutation by letting two leakers off the hook (if you dismiss my speculation above). Secondly it sets a pretty bad precedent for Donald Trump. If you're in government service, and Trump does something you disagree with, leak it. A future present will pardon you.

So make no mistake. At some level, letting Bradley Manning go is a shot across Trump's bow, by enabling future Mannings an exit strategy. Not something I remotely agree with for the record (with respect to what Manning leaked), but a clear implication.

[theostrichsays]

All this article taught me was Manning, was a shit bag soldier like the couple of shit bags we had in my platoon during basic.

Somebody else where in the thread mentioned Manning not looking at other soldiers being used as a sign that they were a bad person. Just my two cents, but Esprit De Corps is a thing, and is likely more in there to show that Manning was an outsider among the platoon.

[josykay]

All this article taught me was Manning, was a shit bag soldier like the couple of shit bags we had in my platoon during basic.

Somebody else where in the thread mentioned Manning not looking at other soldiers being used as a sign that they were a bad person. Just my two cents, but Esprit De Corps is a thing, and is likely more in there to show that Manning was an outsider among the platoon.

Yeah, it was the reason, why I was refused, when I was drafted. And yeah, team work is so important in the military. You have to rely on each other.
However, I can see, why someone would not make eyecontact. For example they feel ashamed. You now, you fail, your comrades are punished for it. And even if they would cheer at you... you would still feel bad. Military certainly isn't a job, everyone is suited for.
That drill sergeant shouting on Manning though, yeah, they are supposed to be tough. But his words are very inappropriate. And just in case someone is really choking, shouting at him doesn't help either.

[Aitch]

"Obama commuted your sentence? Oh yea? Yea well you were a pussy in basic training!"

How is that relevant to anything?

[Blacktop Cadence]

Always funny to hear people shitting on trans military service when the population is twice as likely to serve.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.ed...urnal-2013.pdf

[Independent voter]

What the hell are you on about?

I looked and have found absolutely no evidence whatsoever to anyone having been "captured by the enemy" due to his leaks. None. Also nobody in the US responsible for some of the shady shit she released has faced any sort of prosecution.

You better back that up with some sources.

You want to believe in Chelsea so badly you can't see the truth. At the least acknowledge she's a flake and then realize that it's dangerous to believe in flakes.

[Mihalik]

You want to believe in Chelsea so badly you can't see the truth. At the least acknowledge she's a flake and then realize that it's dangerous to believe in flakes.

Mate, I don't "believe" in her. I simply haven't seen a single shred of evidence for the wild claims people who want to jail her make. I asked you to provide some, you didn't, that's on you.

Is she a flake? Absolutely. Should have she been accepted into service? No, I said that on page one, it was obvious from day one that she is a basket case, and that she doesn't necessarily understand the implications of her actions, unlike Snowden clearly has for example.

But that doesn't change the fact, that the negative impact of her actions are severely overstated, and the punishment she received was extremely disproportionate and a clear case of a vengeful government throwing the book at her out of frustration and embarrassment.

She absolutely should have been sacked, possibly even got a brief 1-2 year jail term, out in 6 months. But what has been done to her is outright immoral, further reinforcing the fact that at the end of the day, leaking those documents was the morally correct decision, and she pleaded guilty, willing to face consequences.

But, DON'T EVER AGAIN PUSH THAT NARRATIVE ABOUT HOW SHE CAUSED HARM if you can't substantiate it. And you really can't.

[P for Pancetta]

But that doesn't change the fact, that the negative impact of her actions are severely overstated, and the punishment she received was extremely disproportionate and a clear case of a vengeful government throwing the book at her out of frustration and embarrassment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...aring-pentagon
The pentagon agrees with you

[Mayhem]

Soldiers are not automatons. They must have a moral compass, "Just following orders, and looking away" doesn't cut it.

Isn´t "just following orders, and looking away" actually against their 'code of honour'?

[BelziBhaal]

Omg what a brave woman, going through all of this.

The military could have learned a lesson or two in tolerance from this, but instead they mistreat her for failing to conform to their archaic standards. For shame.

Why do you keep referring to BRADLEY Manning as a she? Despite whatever delusions he has and despite whatever pretty names and pronouns he wants to use, he is still a male and should be called a he, not a she. This is a biological and immutable fact.

Only doing otherwise is feeding their delusions.

[Blacktop Cadence]

Why do you keep referring to BRADLEY Manning as a she? Despite whatever delusions he has and despite whatever pretty names and pronouns he wants to use, he is still a male and should be called a he, not a she. This is a biological and immutable fact.

Only doing otherwise is feeding their delusions.

Why not please point out how the DSM-5 defines "delusion?"

[Hotmail]

Why do you keep referring to BRADLEY Manning as a she? Despite whatever delusions he has and despite whatever pretty names and pronouns he wants to use, he is still a male and should be called a he, not a she. This is a biological and immutable fact.

Only doing otherwise is feeding their delusions.

Look JC Denton if you really want to get into biological facts, then I suggest you do some reading on the difference between sex and gender. Here is a starting point:

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

Various conditions that lead to atypical development of physical sex characteristics are collectively referred to as intersex conditions. For information about people with intersex conditions (also known as disorders of sex development), see APA’s brochure Answers to Your Questions About Individuals With Intersex Conditions.

Pronouns are an afterthought and mostly a matter of dignity. You are, of course, free to disregard them, but science is against you on this.

[Logwyn]

"Red in the face, coughing and gasping and holding her throat with one hand, Manning gurgled out, "Drill Sergeant, I'm choking. I'm choking, Drill Sergeant. I can't breathe, I can't - " when she reached out a hand, and physically placed that hand on the Drill Sergeant's forearm."

If you are able to talk enough to say that.... you aren't choking. Sounds like someone was washing out and should have to me.

[Blacktop Cadence]

Pronouns are an afterthought and mostly a matter of dignity. You are, of course, free to disregard them, but science is against you on this.

I particularly like how neither the DSM-5 or the ISD-11 define being trans as a mental illness, how we have an almost forty year old standards of care, how every major medical and mental health organization in the country recognizes transition as the only treatment, how every serious survey has put post-transition trans people at the same quality of life index as other folks, but we're still supposed to take shitposting laymen as experts on who trans people are and how they should be medically and socially addressed.

[Revi]

So the military is a shit hole and they treat people like shit and they expect them to be loyal?

I cant språk for the US but it sounds similar to how it was like for us in Norway. It might sound like poor treatment but i dont think ive ever been treated with the level of respect and confidence from near-strangers as i was in the military. Theres a point to the way its done, and its not because they see recruits as ditt.

[daerellin]

I realize it's quite impossible to prove this, but I'm going to say it anyway, because this whole situation is just eating me alive. Manning lived in my barracks on Fort Drum, in the same hallway. He was what all of us typically referred to back then as a "shitbag Soldier". His room was always filthy, he smelled bad, and he was awful at his job. As a result of this, his NCO's treated him how shitbag Soldiers typically get treated; that is to say, remedial training throughout the day and repeated counselings conducted in an attempt to improve his behavior. When he deployed down range and stole and subsequently leaked classified information, he didn't do it out of some belief that what he was doing was the right thing. He did it because he felt bullied by his NCO's who were applying corrective training in accordance with Army policy. He's not a hero, he's a fucking traitor, and it's a goddamn shame that all of this is being obfuscated by the transgender issue.