About that combat revamp

[Sorrior]

ok so i figured out cycling only between 2 hotbars but not the double tapping thing? Is it the thing where I have to double tap L2 or R2? cause it feels clunky and doesn't always work

Ok so it is part of the new W cross bar thing it shoukd be under controller options I changed it from bar 8 to bar 3 myself.

You can also choose to display half a bar or a full bar of 8 skills per side so it is VERY customizable. And I will try abd get more info soon offline right now

[Aruhen]

Cooldowns are for sure the biggest culprit, but the ability combos and redundant abilities are also a thing. Both of them need to be culled or streamlined to fix this ability bloat.

Yeah ability comboes maybe for some but again the biggest culprit that people mention which is Machinist only has 3 rotational abilities with an another two that are upkeep buttons so five in total. Is that really too much?

[Katchii]

Yeah ability comboes maybe for some but again the biggest culprit that people mention which is Machinist only has 3 rotational abilities with an another two that are upkeep buttons so five in total. Is that really too much?

You bring up Machinist, which was just released in Heavensward, so it doesn't have the same issues as the other classes that were in ARR. Machinist, Dark Knight and Astrologian were all designed for the level 60 cap. Everything else was designed for level 50 cap and then had new abilities added from 50-60.

That said, no, the amount of abilities Machinist has and regularly uses is not a problem. I'm more specifically talking about the 2.0 classes. I have all classes leveled to at least 50, with most being level 60 now except DRG, NIN,and MNK and every single one I've leveled from 50-60, with the exception of AST, MCH and DRK all have too many abilities to deal with. But DRK could stand to lose a few IMO or streamline the combos at least but DRK is no problem compared to WAR...

As I said, having 33+ keybinds that ALL get used at least once during a dungeon is ridiculous...and most of my classes have that. But I'm also pretty OCD about being as good as I can and actually using my utility, I'm aware I don't need to use everything all the time to be a simply effective DPS or whatever but I just can't play any other way.

[zito]

Astrologian is pretty bad in the amount of skills part of it. It has alot. There isn't much to prune though except like 3 skills

[Melsiren]

Honestly with a few exceptions I'm very satisfied with the amount of abilities Jobs have at 60.

The amount of abilities in FF14 has slowly become part of it's charm, in the age when modern MMO's seem to be moving towards single action bars.

Astrologian is pretty bad in the amount of skills part of it. It has alot. There isn't much to prune though except like 3 skills

Most Jobs seem to be like that, tons of skills but for the most part they all seem to have a place.

[zito]

Honestly with a few exceptions I'm very satisfied with the amount of abilities Jobs have at 60.

The amount of abilities in FF14 has slowly become part of it's charm, in the age when modern MMO's seem to be moving towards single action bars.



Most Jobs seem to be like that, tons of skills but for the most part they all seem to have a place.

Like I think the only 2 spells that have no place in the astrologian kit are Malefic 1, Time dialation/celestial opposition and maybe synastry

Malefic 1 for obvious reasons, malefic 2 does the same thing but better. I feel like Time dialation and celestial opposition should just be merged and synastry idk really isn't that useful. It's a rare use for me.

Every other skill I use though, actively.

[Veluren]

Like I think the only 2 spells that have no place in the astrologian kit are Malefic 1, Time dialation/celestial opposition and maybe synastry

Malefic 1 for obvious reasons, malefic 2 does the same thing but better. I feel like Time dialation and celestial opposition should just be merged and synastry idk really isn't that useful. It's a rare use for me.

Every other skill I use though, actively.

Synastry's an ohshit button, it gives a huge healing increase, the issue is that most content is relatively easy enough that you're not put into a place where you get scared.

Celestial Opposition got way better when they increased the duration it extends things by 15 seconds, I think it and Time dilation have a pretty good place to stand apart

Now, if we talk about what I forget is even there, I hardly ever use Disable, it's basically a virus that you don't need to wait for the immunity cooldown to finish on

On the topic itself, I'm in agreement on only the cooldowns really, I think that redundant or useless chain abilities (like one ilm punch) should just be retooled instead of removed entirely, but as a BRD player I agree, get rid of the cooldown bloat, hell, I wouldn't mind if they killed off cross-classing entirely, but I know that would upset older fans who think cross-classing is part of the game's inherit identity

[Aruhen]

You bring up Machinist, which was just released in Heavensward, so it doesn't have the same issues as the other classes that were in ARR. Machinist, Dark Knight and Astrologian were all designed for the level 60 cap. Everything else was designed for level 50 cap and then had new abilities added from 50-60.

That said, no, the amount of abilities Machinist has and regularly uses is not a problem. I'm more specifically talking about the 2.0 classes. I have all classes leveled to at least 50, with most being level 60 now except DRG, NIN,and MNK and every single one I've leveled from 50-60, with the exception of AST, MCH and DRK all have too many abilities to deal with. But DRK could stand to lose a few IMO or streamline the combos at least but DRK is no problem compared to WAR...

As I said, having 33+ keybinds that ALL get used at least once during a dungeon is ridiculous...and most of my classes have that. But I'm also pretty OCD about being as good as I can and actually using my utility, I'm aware I don't need to use everything all the time to be a simply effective DPS or whatever but I just can't play any other way.

I do agree with you that a prune of some sort needs to happen but not in terms of rotational abilities (your 1-4 buttons). Yes some classes like DRG and WAR need a rotational ability prune but not every class. Most classes have more bloat in terms of niche abilities and ridiculous amount of cooldowns.

Lets look at BRD for example... 8 main rotational abilities with 3 AoE abilites. That's 11. My BRD has 36 buttons filled up which means 25 of them are abilities that are just either niche abilites or offensive/defensive cooldowns. If they could lower those 25 buttons to say 8 with say 3 offensive 2 defensive and 3 niche you would have 19 buttons which wouldn't even fill up two hotbars all while keeping every single rotational ability as it was.

Now repeat this for literally every other class outside of a few fringe cases.

Either way I think we're sorta trying to say the same thing but in a different way .

[Melsiren]

I do agree with you that a prune of some sort needs to happen but not in terms of rotational abilities (your 1-4 buttons). Yes some classes like DRG and WAR need a rotational ability prune but not every class.

I really don't follow.

Warrior has 32 abilities 30 if you run the Fel Cleave/ Inner Beast and Decimate / Steel Cyclone Macro

6 of those 30 are your normal rotational, 1 maintenance dot, 1 off the GCD stun/interupt and 2 (4 if not using the macro) damaging finishers.

So not taking situational AOE into account or your CDS that's only 10 rotational abilities, 12 if you count stance dancing.

I mean, yeah Warrior makes very proactive use of their grand arsenal of CDs but they hardly have rotational bloat. Even more when you take into account that half of their moves are combos, that don't really offer a higher complexity. Even then those three combos offer you the ability to adjust to the situations you're in. Taking too much damage and enmity not an issue? Eye into Path. Survival not an issue so you can just milk out all those sweet sweet numbers? Eye into Block. I don't want to sound like an elitist, because I fully supported the ability prune in Warcraft in the past. I just don't look at my WAR move set and think. "This ability is just taking up space, I don't really have a use for it." Even the abundance of CDs I have offers a flexibility in how to use them given the situation.

Heck, the only real Niche ability WARs have is Flash if you choose to cross class into it.

[Katchii]

I do agree with you that a prune of some sort needs to happen but not in terms of rotational abilities (your 1-4 buttons). Yes some classes like DRG and WAR need a rotational ability prune but not every class. Most classes have more bloat in terms of niche abilities and ridiculous amount of cooldowns.

Lets look at BRD for example... 8 main rotational abilities with 3 AoE abilites. That's 11. My BRD has 36 buttons filled up which means 25 of them are abilities that are just either niche abilites or offensive/defensive cooldowns. If they could lower those 25 buttons to say 8 with say 3 offensive 2 defensive and 3 niche you would have 19 buttons which wouldn't even fill up two hotbars all while keeping every single rotational ability as it was.

Now repeat this for literally every other class outside of a few fringe cases.

Either way I think we're sorta trying to say the same thing but in a different way .

Agreed. It's difficult to convey the idea in general terms when the different classes can be so...different and they each would need a slightly different touch.

- - - Updated - - -

I really don't follow.

Warrior has 32 abilities 30 if you run the Fel Cleave/ Inner Beast and Decimate / Steel Cyclone Macro

6 of those 30 are your normal rotational, 1 maintenance dot, 1 off the GCD stun/interupt and 2 (4 if not using the macro) damaging finishers.

So not taking situational AOE into account or your CDS that's only 10 rotational abilities, 12 if you count stance dancing.

I mean, yeah Warrior makes very proactive use of their grand arsenal of CDs but they hardly have rotational bloat. Even more when you take into account that half of their moves are combos, that don't really offer a higher complexity. Even then those three combos offer you adjust to the situations your in. Taking too much damage and enmity not an issue? Eye into Path. Survival not an issue so you can just milk out all those sweet sweet numbers? Eye into Block. I don't want to sound like an elitist, because I fully supported the ability prune in Warcraft in the past. I just don't look at my WAR move set and think. "This ability is just taking up space, I don't really have a use for it." Even the abundance of CDs I have offers a flexibility in how to use them given the situation.

Heck, the only real Niche ability WARs have is Flash if you choose to cross class into it.

The prune isn't necessarily about just getting rid of unused abilities, it's also about streamlining or combining commonly used abilities into fewer buttons too. Rhetorical questions just to think about: Does the warrior need 32 abilities to be effective? Can any of those be combined with others? Does the Warrior rotation NEED 12 abilities to be effective and fun to play?

[Melsiren]

The prune isn't necessarily about just getting rid of unused abilities, it's also about streamlining or combining commonly used abilities into fewer buttons too. Rhetorical questions just to think about: Does the warrior need 32 abilities to be effective? Can any of those be combined with others? Does the Warrior rotation NEED 12 abilities to be effective and fun to play?

I know that was meant to be rhetorical, but I have an answer for it.

Warrior does need have 32 abilities to accomplish the feel it currently has. Right now you have the right to make choices on a Warrior in just your base rotation, going back to my above example."Taking too much damage and enmity not an issue? Eye into Path. Survival not an issue so you can just milk out all those sweet sweet numbers? Eye into Block. " If you combined any of the 6 combo builders together you lose the ability to make that choice, by removing the choice you can't be wrong which just needlessly simplifies the game.

Same thing goes with the 13 cool downs, different combinations for different situations. Used right offensive ones are now defensive, and defensive offensive, both of which let you stance dance better, and stance dancing is what WAR is all about. As a Warrior you can even sacrifice you defensive CDs and use them to pull off the Triple Fel Cleave and do very high damage in your Berserk window, yet again a choice that could easily go away if they choose to prune abilities.

The remaining abilities not mentioned above are situational AOE, Taunt, And pulling abilities... oh and our execute.

These two things, mostly the latter have become my favorite part of WAR, and the job could very easily become less fun to play to me.

EDIT: As I said I just don't really follow, back in WoW when some abilities got pruned, Warlock Curses for example it made sense because a lot of said curses were only used given the situation or more often than not group makeup. Staying on Warlock there were just wrong choices you could make as in they were never correct. Affliction Warlocks could use incinerate yet there was no real situation where incinerate was a DPS increase for Affliction.

I don't feel FF14 has this problem, though I have not played all the jobs at 60 yet. So WAR again for my example, I feel any prunes would just simplify the job for the sake of simplification.

[Remilia]

Like I think the only 2 spells that have no place in the astrologian kit are Malefic 1, Time dialation/celestial opposition and maybe synastry

Malefic 1 for obvious reasons, malefic 2 does the same thing but better. I feel like Time dialation and celestial opposition should just be merged and synastry idk really isn't that useful. It's a rare use for me.

Every other skill I use though, actively.

You can extend your MP regen buff with Celestial btw, not talking about the card, but the actual self buff.

[Aruhen]

I don't really feel WAR has any unused abilities is the thing, however on the 32 abilities note which I know you meant to be rhetorical.

Warrior does need have 32 abilities to accomplish the feel it currently has. Right now you have the right to make choices on a Warrior in just your base rotation, going back to my above example."Taking too much damage and enmity not an issue? Eye into Path. Survival not an issue so you can just milk out all those sweet sweet numbers? Eye into Block. " If you combined any of the 6 combo builders together you lose the ability to make that choice, by removing the choice you can't be wrong which just needlessly simplifies the game.

Same thing goes with the 13 cool downs, different combinations for different situations. Used right offensive ones are now defensive, and defensive offensive, both of which let you stance dance better, and stance dancing is what WAR is all about. As a Warrior you can even sacrifice you defensive CDs and use them to pull off the Triple Fel Cleave and do very high damage in your Berserk window, yet again a choice that could easily go away if they choose to prune abilities.

The remaining abilities not mentioned above are situational AOE, Taunt, And pulling abilities... oh and our execute.

These two things, mostly the latter have become my favorite part of WAR, and the job could very easily become less fun to play to me.

EDIT: As I said I just don't really follow, back in WoW when some abilities got pruned, Warlock Curses for example it made sense because a lot of said curses were only used given the situation or more often than not group makeup. Staying on Warlock there were just wrong choices you could make as in they were never correct. Affliction Warlocks could use incinerate yet there was no real situation where incinerate was a DPS increase for Affliction.

I don't feel FF14 has this problem, though I have not played all the jobs at 60 yet. So WAR again for my example, I feel any prunes would just simplify the job for the sake of simplification.

We're mostly talking in a what if scenario. Sure in today' world all these different abilities have their use. Of course if they went along with a prune or a consolidation which I think is the more fitting word they'd probably make future content (and maybe update old stuff) balanced around not having some of those tools.

Another side of the coin would be changing up the way buttons work. For example what if instead of having two buttons for the final part of each individual combo path you just had one that would change depending on what path you went? Similar stuff could be done to be the base combos and it really wouldn't change anything other than save a few slots on the bars. This is the option I'd be the most content with instead of an actual prune.

Either way I sorta agree with you that I also don't want a prune but I do think something needs to be done, especially since we're getting more abilities in Stormblood. I'd personally love it if they just added new traits instead of abilities but that's not as exciting.

[Melsiren]

We're mostly talking in a what if scenario. Sure in today' world all these different abilities have their use. Of course if they went along with a prune or a consolidation which I think is the more fitting word they'd probably make future content (and maybe update old stuff) balanced around not having some of those tools.

Another side of the coin would be changing up the way buttons work. For example what if instead of having two buttons for the final part of each individual combo path you just had one that would change depending on what path you went? Similar stuff could be done to be the base combos and it really wouldn't change anything other than save a few slots on the bars. This is the option I'd be the most content with instead of an actual prune.

Either way I sorta agree with you that I also don't want a prune but I do think something needs to be done, especially since we're getting more abilities in Stormblood. I'd personally love it if they just added new traits instead of abilities but that's not as exciting.

I think I remember hearing that abilities will be pruned in Stormblood, but we will be getting the same amount pruned back on our trip to 70. However I'm pretty sure that source was some 2nd hand translation of a Yoshi P interview, that I saw on Reddit so I don't know how accurate that could be.

EDIT: Found it https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/

Yoshida: "For example, Monk/pugilist's feather foot allows you to boost your evasion rate, but there aren't many situations where monks actually get attacked by enemies. If you do get put in that sort of situation, you can already see where the battle is going anyway.
Even when you fight alone, there are almost no ocassions where feather foot changes your fate of living or dying. Of course there will be people who say "But i use it when i solo! Don't take away a characteristic from our job", but if we add more actions/abilities, these kinds of actions will get removed from players' hotbars anyway. So we will delete and add new actions instead or leave the name of the action and change what it does to give it more meaning."

Have no idea how accurate the translation is though, people are saying it's alright but.... I'm a cynic.

[Veluren]

I think I remember hearing that abilities will be pruned in Stormblood, but we will be getting the same amount pruned back on our trip to 70. However I'm pretty sure that source was some 2nd hand translation of a Yoshi P interview, that I saw on Reddit so I don't know how accurate that could be.

EDIT: Found it https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/

Yoshida: "For example, Monk/pugilist's feather foot allows you to boost your evasion rate, but there aren't many situations where monks actually get attacked by enemies. If you do get put in that sort of situation, you can already see where the battle is going anyway.
Even when you fight alone, there are almost no ocassions where feather foot changes your fate of living or dying. Of course there will be people who say "But i use it when i solo! Don't take away a characteristic from our job", but if we add more actions/abilities, these kinds of actions will get removed from players' hotbars anyway. So we will delete and add new actions instead or leave the name of the action and change what it does to give it more meaning."

Have no idea how accurate the translation is though, people are saying it's alright but.... I'm a cynic.

I can interpret that as how they changed Rogue's perfect dodge (dodge 1 attack garunteed) into Shade Shift (20% of HP physical shield), rather than remove an ability, retool and rename it into something that is appealing to use. You'll always run the risk of offending someone (I personally liked the flavor of perfect dodge more, but shade shift is better), but if it makes the majority happy...

Also, on the bit about cooldowns, it's different from class to class, going back to BRD and giving you an idea, if I'm about to blow someone up, I need to pop SIX cooldowns (Raging strikes, inner release, hawk eye, quelling strikes, barrage, blood for blood, if I'm in group content you can put it up to eight with Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice) that have no immediately tangible effect on my enemy, and between the first cooldown animation and the last, I've lost several seconds of whatever buff I popped first, and very often I'll find a click didn't register because of the animation lock so I've started my hardcore "burn this enemy" rotation missing 20% damage, 15% crit, or 25% dex

Bard is the most drastic example though, but it speaks for how it can be an issue.

[Remilia]

I think I remember hearing that abilities will be pruned in Stormblood, but we will be getting the same amount pruned back on our trip to 70. However I'm pretty sure that source was some 2nd hand translation of a Yoshi P interview, that I saw on Reddit so I don't know how accurate that could be.

EDIT: Found it https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/

Yoshida: "For example, Monk/pugilist's feather foot allows you to boost your evasion rate, but there aren't many situations where monks actually get attacked by enemies. If you do get put in that sort of situation, you can already see where the battle is going anyway.
Even when you fight alone, there are almost no ocassions where feather foot changes your fate of living or dying. Of course there will be people who say "But i use it when i solo! Don't take away a characteristic from our job", but if we add more actions/abilities, these kinds of actions will get removed from players' hotbars anyway. So we will delete and add new actions instead or leave the name of the action and change what it does to give it more meaning."

Have no idea how accurate the translation is though, people are saying it's alright but.... I'm a cynic.

Decent accurate from what I'm reading.

[zito]

You can extend your MP regen buff with Celestial btw, not talking about the card, but the actual self buff.

oh i know, i still feel like the aoe one and the ST one should just be merged into one CD. Give it like a 10 sec extension and a lower CD

[Solidito]

Bit nervous about the combat revamp, WoD/Legion pruning gave me nightmares and made me hate my class.

I love my Dragoon as is, I really hope they don't screw with the flow of it and buttons. I wouldn't mind if they made BotD easier to manage (longer timer/something to refresh it with) but I also wouldn't mind if they didn't touch it.

Some classes do need some changes but I really hope they don't go overboard and ruin it. The game has a long ass GCD and having hardly anything to press would make it very boring for me personally.

[dope_danny]

Bit nervous about the combat revamp, WoD/Legion pruning gave me nightmares and made me hate my class.

I love my Dragoon as is, I really hope they don't screw with the flow of it and buttons. I wouldn't mind if they made BotD easier to manage (longer timer/something to refresh it with) but I also wouldn't mind if they didn't touch it.

Some classes do need some changes but I really hope they don't go overboard and ruin it. The game has a long ass GCD and having hardly anything to press would make it very boring for me personally.

WAR and NIN have undergone huge changes people barely noticed i think it will be nowhere near as bad as WoW's

[Graeham]

WAR and NIN have undergone huge changes people barely noticed i think it will be nowhere near as bad as WoW's

Yeah. The 'core feel' of FFXIV's classes/jobs aren't likely to change. Rather they'll be enhanced, I think.