It's official, President Trump takes over.

[Wells]

All this empty talk of international law. There is only 1 law among nations: power.

If the US wants to do something badly enough, we will do it. Conventions/treaties/international law is utterly meaningless if you do not have the strength to call a country to account for ignoring them.

And no one has the power to do that to the US without provoking a world war.

International law has only the force that the US allows it to have. if there's a part of it we want to ignore, we do. And there's nothing anyone can do about that.

The US is not immune to consequences.

[jdbond592]

Trump just declared that he never started a fight with intelligence community. It was all made by #crookedmedia. Never happened. Sad.

[Berengil]

The US is not immune to consequences.

Such as?

Sanction the US? Tank the world economy.

Attack the US? Pardon me while I die of laughter.

It's a historical fact that Americans do not accept consequences. They fight instead. Now that might be manageable were we talking about any other country.

But we're not, are we? People and nations that bet against the US should carefully consider the historical fact that no one has ever won such a bet.

[Wells]

Such as?

Sanction the US? Tank the world economy.

Attack the US? Pardon me while I die of laughter.

It's a historical fact that Americans do not accept consequences. They fight instead. Now that might be manageable were we talking about any other country.

But we're not, are we? People and nations that bet against the US should carefully consider the historical fact that no one has ever won such a bet.

Deny the US cooperative efforts. Ignore diplomatic efforts etc etc.

[Shadowmelded]

And there's nothing anyone can do about that.

Ah, good old fashioned Gunboat diplomacy. Truly endearing.

[jdbond592]

Such as?

Sanction the US? Tank the world economy.

Attack the US? Pardon me while I die of laughter.

It's a historical fact that Americans do not accept consequences. They fight instead. Now that might be manageable were we talking about any other country.

But we're not, are we? People and nations that bet against the US should carefully consider the historical fact that no one has ever won such a bet.

"World Economy" is lot bigger than US. Something as simple as slapping tariff on all US export will do. Good luck selling anything made in America to world.

[Berengil]

Deny the US cooperative efforts. Ignore diplomatic efforts etc etc.

That's it? Basically stamp their feet, take their ball, and go home?

That's not consequences. That's mildly entertaining childishness that would only harden American public opinion. Any US politician who even whispered about maybe giving in on something after that would never win elected office again.

- - - Updated - - -

You're cute.

Well, thank you. I like your avatar too.

[Wells]

That's it? Basically stamp their feet, take their ball, and go home?

That's not consequences. That's mildly entertaining childishness that would only harden American public opinion. Any US politician who even whispered about maybe giving in on something after that would never win elected office again.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, thank you. I like your avatar too.

Why do you think the US has allies?

[Berengil]

Ah, good old fashioned Gunboat diplomacy. Truly endearing.

We're not in this business to endear ourselves to anyone. if they want to come along, they're welcome. If not, may I suggest they stay out of the way.

[JohnBrown1917]

That's it? Basically stamp their feet, take their ball, and go home?

That's not consequences. That's mildly entertaining childishness that would only harden American public opinion. Any US politician who even whispered about maybe giving in on something after that would never win elected office again.

Which would also harm the US economy.

You really think pissing off most countries in the world won't effect you? The US probably already is among the most hated countries the world.

[Skroe]

Such as?

Sanction the US? Tank the world economy.

Attack the US? Pardon me while I die of laughter.

It's a historical fact that Americans do not accept consequences. They fight instead. Now that might be manageable were we talking about any other country.

But we're not, are we? People and nations that bet against the US should carefully consider the historical fact that no one has ever won such a bet.

It took years to recover from defying the will of the international community thanks to how the Iraq War was launched. You're dreaming if you think the US is immune to consequences.

By crapping on our moral authority in the manner in which we launched that conflict, it became politically very difficult for countries around the world to work with us. They started to look for other friends, we started to lose access. Instead of being welcomed, we started to be something that foreign politicians had to agree to under the table to as not incite their populations, who were outraged.

The US should NEVER constrain it's international action due to international opinion. But it MUST respect it and it is stupid in the extreme to denigrate it. Even when wrong, they have a right to their policy perspectives, and we shamed ourselves, in retrospect, treating Germany and France in the way we did in 2003, even if they weren't exactly acting the greatest themselves. A superpower cannot act like a thug or we lose the moral claim on being a superpower and we WILL find ourselves isolated.

Consider a scenario whereby the US wants to launch an unpopular war against the advice of its allies again. What happens when the consequences are loss of access, loss of trust and a shift in relationships to a more reliable and predictable power? That last part is critical. One of the reasons the US is what it is, globally, is because of the feeling that we're incredibly predictable. We're the safe bet. We have our moments, but we pay our debts, we follow through and our word is our bond. If we start being erratic, countries who are weaker and smaller, who rely on predictability to ensure their own liberty, will start looking for more stable arrangements.

This is the key danger of Trump's rhetoric about NATO, for example. If our allies don't think we'll come to their defense, how long until they sensibly come up to other arrangements, at a net loss to us?

The US is the leader of free world. We are the champion of liberalism over authoritarianism. But being a leader means acting with restraint and considering the needs of our partners. America unleashed will very quickly be America alone. But America that proceeds carefully will enjoy legitimacy and enduring partnerships.

[JohnBrown1917]

We're not in this business to endear ourselves to anyone. if they want to come along, they're welcome. If not, may I suggest they stay out of the way.

Americans really can't help but act stereotypical, I see.

[Wyrt]

We're not in this business to endear ourselves to anyone. if they want to come along, they're welcome. If not, may I suggest they stay out of the way.

It's not just other countries that would be upset, US citizens would be as well. Civil unrest has been big in the past like during the Vietnam War and the fight for civil rights.

[Shadowmelded]

We're not in this business to endear ourselves to anyone. if they want to come along, they're welcome. If not, may I suggest they stay out of the way.

I mean if you're so desperate for isolationism that you want to become a pariah in the process, be my guest.

[Berengil]

Why do you think the US has allies?

Some of them agree with us, and lots of them are our allies because they realize it's better to be friends than enemies of a nation whose power and reach would make Roman emperors weep with jealousy.

Basically, they know which side their bread is buttered on. Or as a great man once said :

" We must never get out of step with the Americans. Never." --- Winston Churchill

[Skroe]

Which would also harm the US economy.

You really think pissing off most countries in the world won't effect you? The US probably already is among the most hated countries the world.

Welll actually...









The US Global Image is pretty damn good.

[JohnBrown1917]

Some of them agree with us, and lots of them are our allies because they realize it's better to be friends than enemies of a nation whose power and reach would make Roman emperors weep with jealousy.

Basically, they know which side their bread is buttered on. Or as a great man once said :

" We must never get out of step with the Americans. Never." --- Winston Churchill

Hot damn, are you going for the big prize of the stereotypical American arrogance?

[Wells]

Some of them agree with us, and lots of them are our allies because they realize it's better to be friends than enemies of a nation whose power and reach would make Roman emperors weep with jealousy.

Basically, they know which side their bread is buttered on. Or as a great man once said :

" We must never get out of step with the Americans. Never." --- Winston Churchill

Its a simple answer to a simple question. America has allies because allies are useful for us and good to have. This gives them some leverage.

[JohnBrown1917]

Welll actually...

[img]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/GA_2016.06.29_balanceofpower-1-12.png[]

[img]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/GA_2016.06.29_balanceofpower-1-14.png[img]



[img]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/U.S.-and-China-fav-WEB-version.png[img]

The US Global Image is pretty damn good.

Probably because it missed the countries the US fucked over. And Trump is definitely going to make the view of the US to the world a lot worse.

[Berengil]

It took years to recover from defying the will of the international community thanks to how the Iraq War was launched. You're dreaming if you think the US is immune to consequences.

By crapping on our moral authority in the manner in which we launched that conflict, it became politically very difficult for countries around the world to work with us. They started to look for other friends, we started to lose access. Instead of being welcomed, we started to be something that foreign politicians had to agree to under the table to as not incite their populations, who were outraged.

The US should NEVER constrain it's international action due to international opinion. But it MUST respect it and it is stupid in the extreme to denigrate it. Even when wrong, they have a right to their policy perspectives, and we shamed ourselves, in retrospect, treating Germany and France in the way we did in 2003, even if they weren't exactly acting the greatest themselves. A superpower cannot act like a thug or we lose the moral claim on being a superpower and we WILL find ourselves isolated.

Consider a scenario whereby the US wants to launch an unpopular war against the advice of its allies again. What happens when the consequences are loss of access, loss of trust and a shift in relationships to a more reliable and predictable power? That last part is critical. One of the reasons the US is what it is, globally, is because of the feeling that we're incredibly predictable. We're the safe bet. We have our moments, but we pay our debts, we follow through and our word is our bond. If we start being erratic, countries who are weaker and smaller, who rely on predictability to ensure their own liberty, will start looking for more stable arrangements.

This is the key danger of Trump's rhetoric about NATO, for example. If our allies don't think we'll come to their defense, how long until they sensibly come up to other arrangements, at a net loss to us?

The US is the leader of free world. We are the champion of liberalism over authoritarianism. But being a leader means acting with restraint and considering the needs of our partners. America unleashed will very quickly be America alone. But America that proceeds carefully will enjoy legitimacy and enduring partnerships.

You say that we should never constrain our actions due to international opinion. Then you give reasons why we should.

I can appreciate that you're trying to balance 2 competing ideas here, Skroe. But here's mine: If we need or want to do something, basically the only dissenting opinion I would give a listen to is from the UK. They're family. Everyone else can go f right off with their objections to what we do.