Will this be considered a stain in American history?

[KrazyK923]

No. Most people forgot he was rapping with Common before he became the stereotype for black wealth.

There's enough people who'll vote for him simply on skin color. Add young people turning 18 seeing a celebrity on the ballot along with people that will think opposition to him will be based on racism and you have a recipe for hilarity.

Still willing to admit it could be boring and he gets blocked successfully.

I think more people find Kanye a pretentious cunt than a celebrity to be worshiped.

[Elegiac]

No. Most people forgot he was rapping with Common before he became the stereotype for black wealth.

There's enough people who'll vote for him simply on skin color. Add young people turning 18 seeing a celebrity on the ballot along with people that will think opposition to him will be based on racism and you have a recipe for hilarity.

Still willing to admit it could be boring and he gets blocked successfully.

The only people who think people vote based on skin colour are Republicans, which is why they keep putting up garbage candidates and say 'hey, vote for this guy, he's black!'.

[Dextroden]

I'm sorry but I don't understand, could you explain a different way?

If a handful of votes in key states can flip it, why not focus on those states instead of running up the number of votes in states you're going to win?

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The only people who think people vote based on skin colour are Republicans, which is why they keep putting up garbage candidates and say 'hey, vote for this guy, he's black!'.

There's that whole bit about black people voting for old, white people to lead them needs to change. It was to get people to vote Obama, but that shit spread. A fair amount of my old coworkers didn't want to go from Obama to Hillary or Bernie for just that reason.

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I think more people find Kanye a pretentious cunt than a celebrity to be worshiped.

Oh, people are fake as shit. If he ran, they'd bury that hatchet lightning quick. Especially other celebrities that want an in.

[Macaquerie]

You are probably right in a sense. The US is not as partisan as people think. We still stop to help when people get a flat tire.

The current partisan divide is not just a matter of petty bickering for no reason though, different groups of people in this country have diametrically opposed interests and in many cases there isn't a compromise that will satisfy everyone. The gender pay gap is a great example - both sides just want more money for themselves and there's no way to bridge that divide in a way that will make everyone happy. Some conflicts are necessary, we can be civil and peaceful about it of course, but that's not the same as everybody going home satisfied.

The only people who think people vote based on skin colour are Republicans, which is why they keep putting up garbage candidates and say 'hey, vote for this guy, he's black!'.

[KrazyK923]

If a handful of votes in key states can flip it, why not focus on those states instead of running up the number of votes in states you're going to win?

I have no idea why her campaign didn't do this. I think she thought she had it in the bag. But once again, Comey kind of fucked her over there.

Since we keep getting on the topic of the EC vs popular vote, I think the fact that ohio, virginia, florida, and occasionally north carolina seem to constantly pick the President, that's a perfect reason why the EC sucks. In an effort to not "delegitimize" smaller states, we've picked about 4-5 that decide the election every year. How is that different?

[jugzilla]

Imposing democracy and defending democracy from predators are two very different things.

Nobody is talking about imposing democracy here.

I'm not sure on what planet you interpret the Syrian conflict, or Libya as nation building exercises or imposing Democracy. Neither were. Both Civil Wars came about naturally on their own as a result of the Arab Spring. In fact, pre-Arab Spring, the US had little to no beef with Syria, and occasionally worked with it (remember Nancy Pelosi's visit in 2007?).

Obama did not engage in nation building. Even in Afghanistan the mission rapidly shifted to Counter Terrorism, away from Counter Insurgency.

Taking down Assad in Syria was incidental to the plan and really the goal of the rebels that we did not share beyond the broad "Assad must go". The main goal was to use Syria as a "threat sink", to draw in our adversaries and allow them to expend resources maintaining an underable status quo that we were undermining. This approach has a long and successful history of working against authoritarian regimes.

Take Russia. If the US had armed the Syrian rebels with more powerful weapons, protected by a no fly zone, it would have forced RUssia to commit more support, and resources earlier. it would have, as it was for a while, drained the Russian state's ability to act on other fronts, such as Ukraine.. Those asymetric trainers that showed up in Donbass, would have been redirected to Syria.This would have allowed the US - and the free world - to press our advantage against Russia on other fronts.

With Iran this actually happened. Iran, a poorer and smaller country than Russia threw huge amounts of resources into Syria. Its Quuds force was severely weakened by the campaign there. In fact the US, Saudis (and Israel) specifically targeted and killed many senior Quuds Force leaders. This played a role in forcing Iran to the negotiating table over its nuclear deal as Quuds force represent an asymetric regional advantage over its rivals. WIth it drained of fighters and leadership, Iran's advantages decreased.

The axiom "the best defense is a good offense" is very true. You asked what's a fundamental American principle at stake? Standing up for freedom against tyranny. The US, in Syria, through our asymmetric meatgrinder, was doing that... but not against Assad who was incidential, but against Iran and Russia.

Now only if Obama didn't lose his nerve and pre-empted the Russians by imposing a no-fly-zone early on, he wouldn't have let that situation we nurtured get cut down by Russian air power years later. But this is how Democracies SHOULD defend itself, rather than wait for the threat to come to our doorstep.

You did an admirable job the past few years explaining the US actions as part of some grand scheme. You know Obama did not have a grand scheme, and had zero strategy. Yes...we could have made another Afghanistan out of Syria, had we shipped some better weapons over there. Why? And what happens after? Do we we really want another Afghanistan, next door to a Nato Ally, Turkey? Why are we doing this to begin with? The whole thing was crazy, and no matter how little you think of Trump, he hasn't done a thing that has killed thousands of people. Yet.

The current partisan divide is not just a matter of petty bickering for no reason though, different groups of people in this country have diametrically opposed interests and in many cases there isn't a compromise that will satisfy everyone. The gender pay gap is a great example - both sides just want more money for themselves and there's no way to bridge that divide in a way that will make everyone happy. Some conflicts are necessary, we can be civil and peaceful about it of course, but that's not the same as everybody going home satisfied.

The gender pay gap is so small, especially when you get to the working class. Women just want to be treated fairly. I think Man and Women can coexist!

[Macaquerie]

I have no idea why her campaign didn't do this. I think she thought she had it in the bag. But once again, Comey kind of fucked her over there.

Since we keep getting on the topic of the EC vs popular vote, I think the fact that ohio, virginia, florida, and occasionally north carolina seem to constantly pick the President, that's a perfect reason why the EC sucks. In an effort to not "delegitimize" smaller states, we've picked about 4-5 that decide the election every year. How is that different?

Honestly, for supposedly being such a seasoned political operator, Hillary does seem to show more than a bit of naivete in unfavorable situations. I can totally see her brushing off sound campaign advice from well-meaning aides on account of "well you wouldn't be telling me this if I were a man!" or some shit like that.

[Dextroden]

I have no idea why her campaign didn't do this. I think she thought she had it in the bag. But once again, Comey kind of fucked her over there.

Since we keep getting on the topic of the EC vs popular vote, I think the fact that ohio, virginia, florida, and occasionally north carolina seem to constantly pick the President, that's a perfect reason why the EC sucks. In an effort to not "delegitimize" smaller states, we've picked about 4-5 that decide the election every year. How is that different?

Because Republicans don't want to lose Florida and Texas and Democrats don't want lose California and New York. If they didn't have to be staging ground states, those colors would run wild.

Also because the loser will cry about losing in a popular vote contest for the same reason the loser cries in this system. They lost. Do you think ANY political party would concede the presidency because they didn't have the popular vote? None would! Why surrender when you won?

[KrazyK923]

Honestly, for supposedly being such a seasoned political operator, Hillary does seem to show more than a bit of naivete in unfavorable situations. I can totally see her brushing off sound campaign advice from well-meaning aides on account of "well you wouldn't be telling me this if I were a man!" or some shit like that.

Agreed entirely. She's a pretty decent policy politician (Even when I disagree with her on a lot of stuff), but she lacks the charisma to actually run a campaign. Most of her career she seemed to use the Clinton name to push her campaign, rather than be compelling on her own.

There are plenty of examples of this, but the one that makes me cringe the most is the "Pokemon Go to the Polls" facepalm.

Part of it also seems to be that she just gets bad advice about it. Because when I see her actually go off script, she's not the worst.

[Macaquerie]

The gender pay gap is so small, especially when you get to the working class. Women just want to be treated fairly. I think Man and Women can coexist!

Like so many other issues though, the pay gap isn't really about the money, it's about winning, and we can't all be winners.

[Dextroden]

Agreed entirely. She's a pretty decent policy politician (Even when I disagree with her on a lot of stuff), but she lacks the charisma to actually run a campaign. Most of her career she seemed to use the Clinton name to push her campaign, rather than be compelling on her own.

There are plenty of examples of this, but the one that makes me cringe the most is the "Pokemon Go to the Polls" facepalm.

There it is.

For as bad and stupid as Trump is, the motherfucker can be charming. You don't pull as much shit as he has without the ability to sell ice to Eskimos.

[KrazyK923]

There it is.

For as bad and stupid as Trump is, the motherfucker can be charming. You don't pull as much shit as he has without the ability to sell ice to Eskimos.

I mean do even the most fervent anti-Trump people (I guess I'd consider myself one) deny that he's charming?

Everyone knows he's an expert bullshitter.

[Wyrt]

There it is.

For as bad and stupid as Trump is, the motherfucker can be charming. You don't pull as much shit as he has without the ability to sell ice to Eskimos.

Is he though? Most of the US didn't buy his brand of bullshit.

[Dextroden]

I mean do even the most fervent anti-Trump people (I guess I'd consider myself one) deny that he's charming?

Everyone knows he's an expert bullshitter.

And so I continue to ask you why is it a shock the woman who rested on her laurels because she thought she deserved to win for losing to Obama. (Don't front. She was pissed until she got her gift for stepping aside.)

[Elegiac]

I mean do even the most fervent anti-Trump people (I guess I'd consider myself one) deny that he's charming?

Everyone knows he's an expert bullshitter.

I deny that he's charming, but that's more a function of having grown up in an old-money area of Sydney where his type sticks out like a sore thumb.

Trump suffers from new money insecurity; he is self-conscious of the fact he doesn't fit in amongst the upper class dominant in the Northeast and compensates with crass displays of wealth and self-aggrandizement. Nor is he socially conscious or 'cool' enough to fit in with the tech or entertainment giants you see on the West Coast.

He has the sleazebag aura of Richard Branson without the playboy element to compensate for it.

[Macaquerie]

Is he though? Most of the US didn't buy his brand of bullshit.

Trump was a decent con-man in the 80s and 90s when most people didn't really know any better, but as time went by he never really updated his act. The fact that it still worked on a specific segment of America during the election says more about the voters than it does about the candidate.

[Dextroden]

Is he though? Most of the US didn't buy his brand of bullshit.

He got most of you to treat him as the destroyer of worlds and grabber of pussies, which galvanized his voters.

It's also known as Obama won because calling people the socialist muslim Kenyan anti-christ is a terrible campaign strategy.

[Elegiac]

Trump was a decent con-man in the 80s and 90s when most people didn't really know any better, but as time went by he never really updated his act. The fact that it still worked on a specific segment of America during the election says more about the voters than it does about the candidate.

Trump's base is a coalition; you have the usual suspects in the Republican base (Evangelicals, older whites, etc.) along with the two groups he appeals to in the form of Reagan era Republicans due to him being a vial of weaponized 80s greed as well as what clinched the election, people desperate for political change.

[jugzilla]

Trump's base is a coalition; you have the usual suspects in the Republican base (Evangelicals, older whites, etc.) along with the two groups he appeals to in the form of Reagan era Republicans due to him being a vial of weaponized 80s greed as well as what clinched the election, people desperate for political change.

I love it. You really don't listen to any of the legitimate gripes the working class has. Those damned Christians and old people! Yeah...keep on that.

[Elegiac]

I love it. You really don't listen to any of the legitimate gripes the working class has. Those damned Christians and old people! Yeah...keep on that.

Here's my answer to the working class.

You voted for the party of personal responsibility, so pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and stop complaining.