Shrunken British army fears Russia could destroy it in an afternoon!

[Kalis]

Even if the EU as a whole spent as much as the US evenly distributed by GDP but continued in the current independent national military forces, you would still have a vastly inferior military to the US. If they just paid to the level of the UK, it would be not much more powerful than it is now. There is just way too much duplication of structure and dissimilar procurement waste.

The EU is not a country though, so there will be duplication, just as there is in North American militaries, where the US, Canadian and Mexican forces aren't one army.

Well... That's embarassing. I thought you were saying the UK was the number 1 nuclear power in Europe for some reason... I guess it's because you talked about nuclear powers right after your numbers.

My apologies.

No worries.

[Tomyris]

It is the other way around, others apart from France would be a hindrance than help. Why should we give a fuck a fuck if Belgium, Romania or Bulgaria refuse to help us?

You shouldn't, no. I would rather tell them to spend their efforts trying to catch up with the rest of EU economically, helping their populations, not to spend on military. But someone has to buy weapons so the trend is in the other direction.

[Deleted]

On topic, I'm all for an European army, even if the UK can't really be part of it anymore. But it's probably never going to happen, and it might be for the best considering how difficult it would be to put in place (chain of command, logistics, languages, different technologies...)

[Kellhound]

I find it hard to believe considering France has a little under 300 nuclear heads for 225 (only 160 operational) for the UK.France is the number 1 nuclear power in Europe, the UK is second.

The UK is 3rd, the US has ~240 nuclear warheads in Europe.

[Kalis]

That is what makes the EU/ European NATO weak. It is the nature if the beast, and of your own doing.

What is of our own doing? We don't want to become one country, certainly not just so it streamlines military spending. The Irish spent years trying to get away from us, imagine if they were made to come back!

[scrangos]

Someone said britain is the 5th biggest spender, while US is the first. But how effective is the spending? We know the US wastes at on of money on ineffective or useless things in order to pass the money to their donors. While I imagine russia uses their money to actually strengthen their forces. Wonder how it would look if someone graphed real military strength vs military expenditures for each country.

[Kellhound]

uhm..... you might wanna look up what NATO is.

I know what NATO is. I also know the weakness it combines with nationalism has caused to Europe.

[Kalis]

On topic, I'm all for an European army, even if the UK can't really be part of it anymore. But it's probably never going to happen, and it might be for the best considering how difficult it would be to put in place (chain of command, logistics, languages, different technologies...)

As I mentioned earlier, differences in national character between EU countries is a major political stumbling block, even without taking into account the nitty gritty of running it.

[Kellhound]

The EU is not a country though, so there will be duplication, just as there is in North American militaries, where the US, Canadian and Mexican forces aren't one army.



No worries.

The US, unlike all of the other countries, is large enough to not suffer from duplication inefficiencies.

[Deleted]

Someone said britain is the 5th biggest spender, while US is the first. But how effective is the spending? We know the US wastes at on of money on ineffective or useless things in order to pass the money to their donors. While I imagine russia uses their money to actually strengthen their forces. Wonder how it would look if someone graphed real military strength vs military expenditures for each country.

We suffer from the same waste and corruption the US military does, I could write a book on the subject. Russia though takes it to another level, they have this large budget and seem to make very little improvements at all.

[Kellhound]

What is of our own doing? We don't want to become one country, certainly not just so it streamlines military spending. The Irish spent years trying to get away from us, imagine if they were made to come back!

You dont need to become one country. Even agreeing to buy only one fighter, one tank, one frigate, one destroyer, one attack helicopter, one rifle, etc, etc, would sat Europe massive amounts of money.

[Deleted]

You shouldn't, no. I would rather tell them to spend their efforts trying to catch up with the rest of EU economically, helping their populations, not to spend on military. But someone has to buy weapons so the trend is in the other direction.

Belgium is doing just fine economically . As a side note the Belgian army is so small it has to partner with the Netherlands for its navy

[Kalis]

It's the same weakness the Chinese army has. It's not uniformized, every little european shit nation having it's own military 'because muh outdated nationalist feels' is what is costing the EU too much with little result.

Did you get bored of being an anarchist and suddenly switch to being pro-EU, or have you always held impossible-to-reconcile opposite viewpoints?

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You dont need to become one country. Even agreeing to buy only one fighter, one tank, one frigate, one destroyer, one attack helicopter, one rifle, etc, etc, would sat Europe massive amounts of money.

Take that up with the French, they are the ones who insist on only buying their own shit.

[Pengekaer]

That is what makes the EU/ European NATO weak. It is the nature if the beast, and of your own doing.

Agreed, European nations failed to coorporate properly in truly relevant areas such as defense.
It has to do with politicians taking security for granted, just as we saw and still see with the open borders.

Europe will never be nearly as powerful as the US from a military perspective no matter what we do though, the cultural and language differences alone will make it hard to be as efficient as the US military.
But that's alright the way I see it. Global power projection and the military doesn't play as big a part in our culture, identity or self-perception. We only really need a competent home-defense force powerful enough to scare off the Kreml, possibly with limited offensive capabilities in hotspots around the earth. We're a long way from this goal, but I have a feeling we'll get there eventually. Within the next 10 years perhaps. But right now we gotta hope the Russians dont do something really bold in the meantime.

[Deleted]

You dont need to become one country. Even agreeing to buy only one fighter, one tank, one frigate, one destroyer, one attack helicopter, one rifle, etc, etc, would sat Europe massive amounts of money.

Good luck with that, we would never buy French warships, the French would only ever use their own Rafales and the Germans cannot make their mind up what rifle they want. The rest would be an even bigger cluster fuck.

[Tomyris]

Belgium is doing just fine economically . As a side note the Belgian army is so small it has to partner with the Netherlands for its navy

Well, I kinda ignored Belgium there :P

[Kellhound]

Did you get bored of being an anarchist and suddenly switch to being pro-EU, or have you always held impossible-to-reconcile opposite viewpoints?

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Take that up with the French, they are the ones who insist on only buying their own shit.

Which is why the UK uses their own tank with the only rifled main gun in NATO, their own ship designs, their own rifle design......

[Deleted]

You dont need to become one country. Even agreeing to buy only one fighter, one tank, one frigate, one destroyer, one attack helicopter, one rifle, etc, etc, would sat Europe massive amounts of money.

That's a huge problem in and of itself. What aircraft do you buy ? The Eurofighter or the Rafale ? Will The UK or Germany agree to give up on the Eurofighter ? Will France agree to give up on the Rafale ?

The only way an European army would work is by combining national forces, not creating a brand new standardized one.

[Kellhound]

Good luck with that, we would never buy French warships, the French would only ever use their own Rafales and the Germans cannot make their mind up what rifle they want. The rest would be an even bigger cluster fuck.

Hence why it is Europe's own doing they are as weak as they are.

[Kalis]

The US, unlike all of the other countries, is large enough to not suffer from duplication inefficiencies.

That is fine for the US, but what about Mexico? According to your reasoning, you are wasting their military budget, so you need get rid of any duplication. The same goes for Canada. And oobviously all the nations that border Mexico, the ones that border them as well, etc.