NH feels like BT in terms of instance design.

[Emerald Archer]

I can't speak for heroic, but normal mode is way too hard.

Remember MoP. We had 4 difficulties, LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic. Heroic was the very hardest. At the end of MoP, this happened:

LFR = LFR (no name change)
Flex = Normal Mode (new name)
Normal = Heroic Mode (new name)
Heroic = Mythic Mode (new name)

That means that TODAYS Heroic is equal to MoP and previous expansions Normal mode.

Nightholds Normal mode is the same as Siege of Orgrimmars Flex Mode, and Nightholds Heroic Mode is equal to old normal mode.

Or at least it should be. But Todays normal feel more like the old normal (which should be todays HC), and it SHOULD be equal to the old Flex.

Meaning it's way to hard. I mean, compare SoO Flex and NH Normal, they should be equally hard but they are not.

Normal.. too hard? My guild did 10/10 in 3hrs, then went in 2 days later on alts, half about 875-880, other half 860-870ish and went 10/10 in 2.5hrs.

Shit guilds should not be able to 10/10n in one night,

For real though.. what normal boss are you even finding hard?

[Battlebeard]

Normal.. too hard? My guild did 10/10 in 3hrs, then went in 2 days later on alts, half about 875-880, other half 860-870ish and went 10/10 in 2.5hrs.

Shit guilds should not be able to 10/10n in one night,

For real though.. what normal boss are you even finding hard?

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

[Emerald Archer]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

Honestly, it is enough. If you were wiping on normal with an 880 group you guys are just terrible, we rolled through and killed gul'dan with multiple undergeared players.

It's seriously not hard at all. And wiping on Skorp? That's just a joke man, he's a total meme. If you do the 2 mechanics right, there's nothing that can even kill you. Just do 2 mechanics, hide behind crystals for shockwave, and don't be infront of him when he casts focused blast.

You have to be trolling trying to claim he's hard.

[Battlebeard]

Honestly, it is enough. If you were wiping on normal with an 880 group you guys are just terrible, we rolled through and killed gul'dan with multiple undergeared players.

It's seriously not hard at all. And wiping on Skorp? That's just a joke man, he's a total meme. If you do the 2 mechanics right, there's nothing that can even kill you. Just do 2 mechanics, hide behind crystals for shockwave, and don't be infront of him when he casts focused blast.

You have to be trolling trying to claim he's hard.

All I know is that we wiped 4 times on him. The damage was simply too high and we had to replace multiple healers.

The group may sound bad, but it was suprisingly good. We didn't have people standing in shit, we had interupts, proper movement etc etc. On all bosses. We had good communication and people actually listened. But all in all, the damage was simply too high and healers went out of mana before bosses died. Too much hp and too high damage is the problem.

The group I cleared 5/7 HC with in EN was way worse actually.

[Ebalina]

Reminds me swp somehow. I didnt find it challenging on hc, still im pretty impressed and like this raid.

What a shocker i mean it contains the Nightwel after all.

Kinda makes sense to remind you of sunwell.

[Emerald Archer]

All I know is that we wiped 4 times on him. The damage was simply too high and we had to replace multiple healers.

The group may sound bad, but it was suprisingly good. We didn't have people standing in shit, we had interupts, proper movement etc etc. On all bosses. We had good communication and people actually listened. But all in all, the damage was simply too high and healers went out of mana before bosses died. Too much hp and too high damage is the problem.

The group I cleared 5/7 HC with in EN was way worse actually.

EN was SEVERELY undertuned. This is not. This is how it should be. Good guilds who went 7/7M 1/3Mish able to smash out normal in like 3hrs ez,

Guilds who did 7/7M early can do it too, but those that got it in the last 2 or so weeks might struggle on some bosses.

Other guilds, who's progression is heroic or 4/7M ish, SHOULD have to try a little in normal and go through a few wipes. Just like Mythic guilds have to try a little on heroic and go through a few wipes.

[rulee]

All I know is that we wiped 4 times on him. The damage was simply too high and we had to replace multiple healers.

The group may sound bad, but it was suprisingly good. We didn't have people standing in shit, we had interupts, proper movement etc etc. On all bosses. We had good communication and people actually listened. But all in all, the damage was simply too high and healers went out of mana before bosses died. Too much hp and too high damage is the problem.

The group I cleared 5/7 HC with in EN was way worse actually.

Sounds like your tanks and healers just weren't that great if everyone was doing the mechanics and you still wiped. Was this a pug or a guild? Pugs are never going to do good the first week a raid comes out. As a guild, have you had heroic EN on farm for awhile? My thoughts on difficulty of NH are that if you could easily do Heroic EN as a guild then you should be able to get through most of normal NH.

Normal NH is exactly the difficulty it needed to be. You should not be able to think of difficulty of something that was two expansions ago.

People shouldn't expect to faceroll all content without being really good at their class on the first week.

It'll get easier for you guys down the road. People are still learning fights.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I have seen green in every instance. #allthesame /sarcasm

[Battlebeard]

Sounds like your tanks and healers just weren't that great if everyone was doing the mechanics and you still wiped. Was this a pug or a guild? Pugs are never going to do good the first week a raid comes out. As a guild, have you had heroic EN on farm for awhile? My thoughts on difficulty of NH are that if you could easily do Heroic EN as a guild then you should be able to get through most of normal NH.

Normal NH is exactly the difficulty it needed to be. You should not be able to think of difficulty of something that was two expansions ago.

People shouldn't expect to faceroll all content without being really good at their class on the first week.

It'll get easier for you guys down the road. People are still learning fights.

It was a PUG group. My guild is quite good, they farm all mythic content quite fast. Sadly I don't have time for guild raids.

I really disagree with those who said EN was undertuned. You could PuG 5/7 HC in EN if people were good. Here, that's just not possible.

The model should follow like this:

LFR = Tourist mode, you can be almost "retarded" so to speak to clear this. This is just to see the raid and wiping should be near impossible.
Normal = For decent and even semi-bad pugs. You need to follow tactics and have decent DPS but there will be more kills than wipes.
HC = For good pugs or semi-bad guilds. Here you need to follow tactics and have btter DPS than HC. If you follow tacts and have like 20ilvl below whats dropped, it should be no problem at all. This sorts out tunnelvisioners while tryhards always succeed.
Mythic = For guilds. Both semi-good and good guilds. The better guilds clear it fast while the decent guilds clear it slower. Here you will see lots of wipes and many bosses will be wipes if only a few people fail. Here, gear will also really matter. If you lack the DPS or heal, it will simply not work.

OR, simply change the system. Take away HC and LFR and make 2 modes
Normal = For those in no guilds. Not that hard.
Mythic = For those in guilds, effort needed.

Atm, it feels like Normal is for great pugs, like insane pugs. Heroic is for guilds only, pugs have no chance in hell here. And I think it's terrible how the game has gone. This only create disgusting elitism where achievements and ilvl will dominate everything. Things will be so hard that good raiders who hasnt been lucky or boosted, will be chanceless to get to even try.

[Emerald Archer]

It was a PUG group. My guild is quite good, they farm all mythic content quite fast. Sadly I don't have time for guild raids.

I really disagree with those who said EN was undertuned. You could PuG 5/7 HC in EN if people were good. Here, that's just not possible.

The model should follow like this:

LFR = Tourist mode, you can be almost "retarded" so to speak to clear this. This is just to see the raid and wiping should be near impossible.
Normal = For decent and even semi-bad pugs. You need to follow tactics and have decent DPS but there will be more kills than wipes.
HC = For good pugs or semi-bad guilds. Here you need to follow tactics and have btter DPS than HC. If you follow tacts and have like 20ilvl below whats dropped, it should be no problem at all. This sorts out tunnelvisioners while tryhards always succeed.
Mythic = For guilds. Both semi-good and good guilds. The better guilds clear it fast while the decent guilds clear it slower. Here you will see lots of wipes and many bosses will be wipes if only a few people fail. Here, gear will also really matter. If you lack the DPS or heal, it will simply not work.

OR, simply change the system. Take away HC and LFR and make 2 modes
Normal = For those in no guilds. Not that hard.
Mythic = For those in guilds, effort needed.

Atm, it feels like Normal is for great pugs, like insane pugs. Heroic is for guilds only, pugs have no chance in hell here. And I think it's terrible how the game has gone. This only create disgusting elitism where achievements and ilvl will dominate everything. Things will be so hard that good raiders who hasnt been lucky or boosted, will be chanceless to get to even try.

It's the first week, no one knows the best strats yet. It'll get easier.

Lfr is Tourist mode,
Normal is for bad guilds or decent pugs,
Heroic is for Decent-semi-good guilds and very good pugs
Mythic first few bosses for semi-good, rest (aside from last) good guilds, last boss very good guilds.

Heroic can't be a pushover for pugs, because heroics are what guilds who can't get 20players pug on.

EN was undertuned, noobs and players who weren't very good could get a lot of heroic and mythic kills. It might be nice for players like you, who shouldn't be able to farm heroic with ease, but what about for average guilds who can't hit 20 players? The majority of guilds currently. They shouldn't easily clear in the first 2 weeks. It should take them a while to progress.

But for real, give it like a month, and the first 6 will be easily puggable. Likely first 8.

[Deleted]

I made this post about the structure of the raid, not about the encounters or aesthetics.
But I think its fair to say that the aesthetics and encounters get better every tier (ofc how good the theme is, is subjective), and the encounters on heroic I did so far were in line with their usual quality.

But blizzard has trapped themselves in terms of difficulty balancing it seems. Because of paragon traits and legendaries the difference in powerlvl between top and mediocre guilds is huge.

I think they will balance mythic around 54 traits and most guilds wont clear it until 7.2 (new traits and new ak should make everyone more powerful).
Since 7.2 is likely dropping halfway this tier.

[Emerald Archer]

I made this post about the structure of the raid, not about the encounters or aesthetics.
But I think its fair to say that the aesthetics and encounters get better every tier (ofc how good the theme is, is subjective), and the encounters on heroic I did so far were in line with their usual quality.

But blizzard has trapped themselves in terms of difficulty balancing it seems. Because of paragon traits and legendaries the difference in powerlvl between top and mediocre guilds is huge.

I think they will balance mythic around 54 traits and most guilds wont clear it until 7.2 (new traits and new ak should make everyone more powerful).
Since 7.2 is likely dropping halfway this tier.

I'd hope that elis and gul'dan were tuned around 54 traits, and the rest around the 40-45 mark.

[hablix]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

Sorry dude but you're wrong about how hard SoO Flex was. When wings 2, 3, and 4 launched, groups wiped on those bosses for the first week or two. Then SoO Flex groups got full sets of SoO Flex gear + Valor upgrades + learned the strats, then the fights got easier. I remember joining several Galakras groups to get the kill the first week, one of them had been wiping all day. It took me the full week to get kills on Siegecrafter and Garrosh. Malkorok and Thok took some wipes too.

PS: Unlike all the elitists around here, I think Normal should be an easier raid mode, but so far I think Blizzard hit the spot with this raid.

[Nikkaszal]

Yup; it feels pretty similar.

The only thing that slightly dissapointed me was the path to the Star Augur... It's feels just cut-short.
The fight itself features great visuals; which does make up for it.

You're right here. We opened up the door to his staircase and saw the missiles firing at the floor, and were prepared to run a trash gauntlet constantly dodging shit

Then it turns out you just run straight to the boss. Was kinda underwhelming, felt like they forgot to add things there.

[Battlebeard]

Sorry dude but you're wrong about how hard SoO Flex was. When wings 2, 3, and 4 launched, groups wiped on those bosses for the first week or two. Then SoO Flex groups got full sets of SoO Flex gear + Valor upgrades + learned the strats, then the fights got easier. I remember joining several Galakras groups to get the kill the first week, one of them had been wiping all day. It took me the full week to get kills on Siegecrafter and Garrosh. Malkorok and Thok took some wipes too.

PS: Unlike all the elitists around here, I think Normal should be an easier raid mode, but so far I think Blizzard hit the spot with this raid.

No, not really. Flex was close to LFR than it was to Normal mode back then.

But yeah, I'm just frustrated Blizzard spoiled us with great design for EN and now blew it with NH

[Xeranath]

i disagree, normal was piss especially elisande and guldan

Yeah, we did eli and were....waiting for something tricky to come up. Didn't happen and down she flopped. Haven't gotten in to heroic beyond skorp and chron but here's hoping for some good challenges.

Good balance for normal, but I think they could have included a few more heroic mechanics.

[Dracullus]

I believe this was their intention, I think even on Gamescom they said about similarities between them. This structure is great, but still Blackrock Foundry structure is best imo.

And from what I'm seeing, ToS will also be the same. You start off in sewers and then work your way up to KJ.

Wrong, ToS is other way around. You go down deeper and deeper (you know, because it's tomb ;P), in dungeon you go up.

[KrazyK923]

I mean all of Legion is banking on BC nostalgia, so why wouldn't Nighthold be like Black Temple?

[Amaterasu65]

Normal is as it should be. Generally easy. Cleared it twice with 2 splitraids within 1h 30' each.

OT: Yes, the theme matches BT, but its beautiful architecture matches Sunwell

[thilicen]

Layout is similar indeed. I think it offers a natural variation that keeps the instance fresh while progressing. Nighthold in terms of design and boss variation is one of my favorites after running normal and HC. Can't wait to try mythic.

On a side-note: Thank you Blizzard for adding that "fast forward" when running up the stairs from Trilliax, that would have been one tedious walk.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right here. We opened up the door to his staircase and saw the missiles firing at the floor, and were prepared to run a trash gauntlet constantly dodging shit

Then it turns out you just run straight to the boss. Was kinda underwhelming, felt like they forgot to add things there.

True. Though the fight itself more than made up for it imo.