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  1. #301
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    Most bosses are really easy. Only boss that is difficult in comparison to the rest of the raid i've seen is Tich. If the level of difficulty by the rest of the instance is what they want, I can see Tich's health getting nerfed, but in all honesty, it really shouldnt.

  2. #302
    Since when is skill subjective?
    That's not what i said; if "very skilled" means the best 10 players or the best 100,000 players in the world is a subjective discussion. There's no clearly defined answer.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Svisalith View Post
    That's not what i said; if "very skilled" means the best 10 players or the best 100,000 players in the world is a subjective discussion. There's no clearly defined answer.
    It doesn't matter how many people clear it. 10 or 1000 guilds. What I don't like is that the last guilds to clear have it way easier. Nerfs, overgearing etc. So, no post-race nerfs, ilvl scaled to bare minimum for kill. Meaning you have to acquire lots of skill to clear it even the day before the release of new patch. Make it impossible to boost someone for gold who will sit in the corner because he's not even needed. MAKE MYTHIC ACHIEVEMENT GREAT AGAIN!

    That way, when someone links M achi, you'd say: yeah, that's a badass (very skilled player). As it is now, whoever wants M achievement can have it really. Even a fisherman who never steps into any sort of group content and who hasn't hurt a fly since he finished leveling... will gather enough gold to sit in the corner later while people who are watching movie with one eye roll over M Gul'dan for him. All because so called "mythic guilds" must be rewarded with achievement that they don't deserve. Yeah, sure, you "progressed" through a badly nerfed content with super highlevel gear by watching youtube over and over again. Congrats, you have now officially achieved what Method has, let's forget about your whining how it's overtuned and hard while they were clearing it.

    Cheers

  4. #304
    Guilds like Method play for absurd hours and abuse the game in ways that are not fun or well designed. This is given a bit of a free pass at the moment because their experience only applies to a tiny tiny tiny portion of the playerbase, a small portion of mythic guilds even.

    If things were redesigned into a static difficulty level then it would inevitably be made easier for groups like Method as these things were changed or made less relevant

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Drefanator View Post
    Most bosses are really easy. Only boss that is difficult in comparison to the rest of the raid i've seen is Tich. If the level of difficulty by the rest of the instance is what they want, I can see Tich's health getting nerfed, but in all honesty, it really shouldnt.
    I still don't understand why he is considered difficult. You can just sort the raid out left / right, take out the adds, avoid beams in p2, repeat. It's no more interesting than the other bosses before him.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Then in 2 weeks, since they don't want to go up difficulties they complain there is nothing to do and then go on hiatus till next patch.
    Not true at all. I farmed SoO Flex on multiple characters for like 9 months. Likewise I farmed EN Normal every week until I was tapped out on upgrades, then started progressing in Heroic, ending up 7/7 N and H. EN Normal/Heroic lasted for me the entire time it was out until Nighthold released, so the pacing and tuning and everything else was perfect.

    I repeat for the umpteenth time, for people that want to wipe 3 hours a night on nightmare mode, that's the niche that Mythic should fulfill. Normal mode should be accessible, and if gearing up for several weeks in Normal starts to make Heroic equally accessible and creates an additional progression step, all the better.
    Furthermore, I consider that China must be destroyed.

  7. #307
    Deleted
    Well we managed to get past our first wall, Spellblade on HC and killed it during the second wave of pyro adds. It took 2 attempts with some fine tuning of tactics. Krosus took 4 attempts, a solid dps check, with mechanics harder than Ursocs, you'll need over 450k dps avg to kill it comfortably. However our worst boss so far was Tichondrius. It died in classic fashion, both tanks dead at 4% and enough players to nuke down the boss. All these bosses require significant dps checks. On Tich all dps that focus on the boss should be above 450-470K. All cleave dps (the ones on adds) should ideally hit over 550-600K on avg and you should kill it in time. We had 22 people in the raid and five man healed both Krosus and Tich. I'd say HC is proving quite a challenge for us.
    Last edited by mmoc7f933b7749; 2017-01-22 at 11:35 PM.

  8. #308
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    Our casual guild hit a brick wall on elisande last night. That boss exposed mine and others DPS. Only 2 people could hold 300k.

  9. #309
    Normal and to some extend heroic PuGs are pretty successful atm, since for first few weeks highly skilled mythic players tend to be active on normal/heroic PuGs, then after few weeks they move on to only heroics and eventually only mythic raids. So unless you are doing pure guild runs we can't judge difficulty from PuG runs as of now.
    Last edited by Xjev; 2017-01-22 at 11:48 PM.

  10. #310
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Sure, remove trash.. they drop so much loot, you actually want them to remove trash before mythic opens?

    All the loot in the world doesn't matter, you get sick of it halfway through the first run.
    Holy crap did they overdo it in that raid.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2017-01-22 at 11:55 PM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Svisalith View Post
    Guilds like Method play for absurd hours and abuse the game in ways that are not fun or well designed. This is given a bit of a free pass at the moment because their experience only applies to a tiny tiny tiny portion of the playerbase, a small portion of mythic guilds even.

    If things were redesigned into a static difficulty level then it would inevitably be made easier for groups like Method as these things were changed or made less relevant
    What is absurd hours? To you it's absurd, to the guys who race for WF that's what's required and expected. To you shooting free throws in basketball court may be fun for 20 mins, but the guy aiming for the NBA does it for 5 hours. Not because he enjoys every second of it, but because he has a goal beyond just having fun. It doesn't make it absurd just because it's not your goal. So, proposal: make mythic shithard to beat while it's current, and make heroic a bit harder to give the challenge to the mythic guilds who are not really on the mythic level.
    About abusing, quite a few guilds got banned for abusing recently. Method, who got the first actually didn't abuse the game (afaik, unless something came up after i stopped watching the race.

  12. #312
    What is absurd hours? To you it's absurd, to the guys who race for WF that's what's required and expected.
    In world first guilds it's expected to take 2 weeks off work and play all day every day after many people have spent 30-70 hours a week preparing characters in the few months before the raid opens, that would be absurd to impose on everybody else who is playing the game and even everybody else who is clearing most/all of mythic.

    When i say abuse the game i didn't mean exploiting - there are many things that you can do in the game which will give you a slight edge without breaking any rules but come at the cost of objectively bad gameplay.

    Stuff like maintaining 6 characters for split running (an abuse of the loot lockout system to generate additional loot). Making a new character, playing it til you get 1-2 legendaries and then deleting it and remaking and regearing it because it got the wrong legendaries the first time around and it's faster to make a new character than to farm out additional legendaries on the old one (an abuse of the legendary droprate system)

    Swapping classes fight-to-fight to reoptimize for every individual hard boss because maybe a paladin healer isn't good here or the boss is way harder without a certain amount of shadow priests in the composition for mass dispell. (We can't kill the boss this week, Steve is still gearing his new alt priest!)

    Hard content is good but raw time investment is an overwhelming part of competitive guilds and that time investment makes the environment less skill-based rather than more skill based - an excellent player with a moderate amount of time cannot compete with a very good (but lesser skilled) player that can play all day every day.
    Last edited by Svisalith; 2017-01-23 at 12:24 AM.

  13. #313
    Elisandre and Gul'dan were quite a bit of a step up from most of the previous bosses on heroic but I think overall the tuning is good... If a few bosses are too hard for your guild now just keep clearing what you can each week and it will get easier with more tier and trinkets. A trinket our warrior got today was doing about 15% of his total damage...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drefanator View Post
    Most bosses are really easy. Only boss that is difficult in comparison to the rest of the raid i've seen is Tich. If the level of difficulty by the rest of the instance is what they want, I can see Tich's health getting nerfed, but in all honesty, it really shouldnt.
    I think Tichondrius took us 2 pulls on heroic. We actually wiped more on Star Augur (although when our prot warrior switched to his DH tank we got it in 2 tries). Elisandre and Guldan were the only 2 bosses that posed any real problems and they are a signifigant leap in difficulty over anything else in the raid (including Tichondrius for my guild).

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Svisalith View Post
    In world first guilds it's expected to take 2 weeks off work and play all day every day after many people have spent 30-70 hours a week preparing characters in the few months before the raid opens, that would be absurd to impose on everybody else who is playing the game and even everybody else who is clearing most/all of mythic.

    When i say abuse the game i didn't mean exploiting - there are many things that you can do in the game which will give you a slight edge without breaking any rules but come at the cost of objectively bad gameplay.

    Stuff like maintaining 6 characters for split running (an abuse of the loot lockout system to generate additional loot). Making a new character, playing it til you get 1-2 legendaries and then deleting it and remaking and regearing it because it got the wrong legendaries the first time around and it's faster to make a new character than to farm out additional legendaries on the old one (an abuse of the legendary droprate system)

    Swapping classes fight-to-fight to reoptimize for every individual hard boss because maybe a paladin healer isn't good here or the boss is way harder without a certain amount of shadow priests in the composition for mass dispell. (We can't kill the boss this week, Steve is still gearing his new alt priest!)

    Hard content is good but raw time investment is an overwhelming part of competitive guilds and that time investment makes the environment less skill-based rather than more skill based - an excellent player with a moderate amount of time cannot compete with a very good (but lesser skilled) player that can play all day every day.
    My suggestion is not imposing 2 weeks off work to anyone. You still get months to get familiar with the content, you even get youtube videos of each boss. You have months of discussing strategy/asking advice on forums and wherever. Why do you need a X% nerf and +X ilvls? It stops being mythic and becomes slightly harder then heroic. If guild X can't beat mythic in similar environment that let's say top5 guilds did it, after months of figuring out and preparing and having detailed strategy handed out freely, then that guild is not mythic level and should not be given a free achievement.

    We still haven't agreed on what skill is. If you don't invest time what exactly will you be excellent at? Yes, you might be able to figure out the perfect rotation in your head and doodle it on the napkin in the lunch break... and even pull it off on a practice dummy... but are you able to pull it off consistently in chaotic progress mythic environment for 200 pulls? You can take the most individually skilled player in the world and make him play just the casual amount of hours and after a few months he won't be able to pull the same numbers in a progress fight. It's practice, it's form that makes them excel when it's needed.

    Here's a quote for you, which I don't completely agree with, but you'll get the idea of a mindset needed for the very top of anything: “There's no talent here, this is hard work. This is an obsession. Talent does not exist, we are all equal as human beings. You could be anyone if you put in the time. You will reach the top, and that is that. I am not talented, I am obsessed.” — Conor McGregor

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    All the loot in the world doesn't matter, you get sick of it halfway through the first run.
    Holy crap did they overdo it in that raid.
    Noticed in our raid today the trash around the spellblade courtyard, the bubble/zones they drop now give a 50% haste buff rather than a big dmg reduction, makes it a lot quicker rather than waiting for tanks to not be stunned long enough to drag them out. Think this 1 simple change is enough.

  16. #316
    If guild X can't beat mythic in similar environment that let's say top5 guilds did it
    Do you disagree w/ nerfs like the ones targetted at Helya to reduce the need for shadow priest stacking? That is the environment that top5 works in

  17. #317
    Not as much concerned about the overall tuning, but boss 1-3 were trivial and boss 4 was a HUGE MEGA step up.

    Not sure if this was intentional, or if they should have a smoother gradient of difficulty going in.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  18. #318
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    I just don't see why people consider this easy. Normal is suppose to be a walk in the park, even for pugs, and this is not.

    It's not been out a week yet and I'm already hoping for nerfs. I am at over 20 pugs now who haven't managed to kill ANY boss after the first 4, it's just not doable. I'm close to 50 wipes on EACH of the bosses (except the last 2) in there and I'm close to uninstalling now cause it's so frustrating.

    It's not really the groups. They are on avarage 880 ilvl with decent raid exp. Most have even had voice com. It's just poor tuning of the raid.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I just don't see why people consider this easy. Normal is suppose to be a walk in the park, even for pugs
    No, that's LFR.
    Normal is supposed to provide challenge for social guilds.
    It's not really the groups. They are on avarage 880 ilvl with decent raid exp. Most have even had voice com. It's just poor tuning of the raid.
    If they can't go past 4 bosses with ilvl 880 and raid xp, then the problem comes from the players, not the tuning.
    Also, I don't know what is wrong with people expected to clear the raid the very first week and considering "overtuned" everything that doesn't fall in three pulls.

    ToV was overtuned. NH, if anything, is undertuned (at least the first half, the second half has a noticeable ramp-up in difficulty, and the last three bosses are pretty much what I would expect for the end of a normal raid).
    Last edited by Akka; 2017-01-23 at 08:39 AM.

  20. #320
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I just don't see why people consider this easy. Normal is suppose to be a walk in the park, even for pugs, and this is not.

    It's not been out a week yet and I'm already hoping for nerfs. I am at over 20 pugs now who haven't managed to kill ANY boss after the first 4, it's just not doable. I'm close to 50 wipes on EACH of the bosses (except the last 2) in there and I'm close to uninstalling now cause it's so frustrating.

    It's not really the groups. They are on avarage 880 ilvl with decent raid exp. Most have even had voice com. It's just poor tuning of the raid.
    If (and I don't believe this by the way) all of what you said is true, then you are the problem. If I consider how much shit my guild and I did during our first normal clear on wednesday (pulling Aluriel together with multiple waves of trash, one tanking Gul'dan from phase 2 onwards, standing in the Trilliax beam) without wiping and without having done the fights on PTR, I just can't believe that a group of decent players that way overgear the fights could fail like you describe. Unless they are sabotaged by someone who has no idea what they are doing. And even then you shouldn't wipe on Krosus if it isn't your tank that is clueless.

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