Include Classic WoW as a version in Caverns of Time

[MoanaLisa]

If Nost still has usable code, use that code to rebuild classic.

It's just stupid to think that Blizzard will use a 3rd-party emulation within their own game. Also you haven't accounted for what would be required to change on the client side for this to happen.

[Typhoria]

That doesn't explain all the people who never actually played it and who now years later prefer it over the live version. I personally don't but a huge percentage of the vanilla supporters actually started after the cataclysm.

Its free, and their friends are like "hey lets play on this private server." So, instead of playing live by themselves and paying for it, they can play with their friends for free.

[Darsithis]

That doesn't explain all the people who never actually played it and who now years later prefer it over the live version. I personally don't but a huge percentage of the vanilla supporters actually started after the cataclysm.

People trying something out of curiosity are not the people I'm talking about. I tried it, too, to see what it is like. That might hook some people.

But the people pining away for it? The people posting threads saying "bring it back"? Those people are fueled by nostalgia. Again, that's NOT a bad thing! Nostalgia is a great way to get yourself back into something you once loved. It's a reason to experience things again.

[Eleccybubb]

Never understood why people think Nostalgia is a bad thing. It's not. I don't see any issue with wanting to play Vanilla purely out of Nostalgia. Hell I collect and play retro games for the same reason partly. I love sitting on my PS1 and playing games like Croc because they brought me so much joy as a kid.

[Relapses]

Never understood why people think Nostalgia is a bad thing. It's not. I don't see any issue with wanting to play Vanilla purely out of Nostalgia. Hell I collect and play retro games for the same reason partly. I love sitting on my PS1 and playing games like Croc because they brought me so much joy as a kid.

It's not nostalgia it's {something that is literally defined as nostalgia}!

[Worgoblin]

Seems like a half-ass way of adding classic. As someone who loves Vanilla, this idea does not appeal to me. Either do Vanilla servers correctly, or don't bother.

[Hotmail]

Look I don't want to get infracted for conspiracy theories or anything here, but I'm pretty sure that Blizzard enabling some kind of access to Vanilla is mostly a matter of greasing the right palms.

Also I'd rather see it as a client option than a Caverns of Time entry. Just my 0.44 pesos.

[Flurryfang]

The appeal of Vanilla servers is not having all the watered down content and changes that have been made since then, not just the areas as they originally were.

Players want them as a stand alone experience, unaffected by every expansion that came after it. If they can do the Caverns of Time way where the only thing updated is graphics, but it retains literally everything else that Vanilla WoW offered, then sure, toss it in there. I feel like that's a near impossibility though, especially when you consider the sheer amount of changes that have happened since.

Just one simple example, how are you going to handle hunters? Back in Vanilla, they wore leather until 40, then switched to mail. Now, they were mail from level 1. If someone chooses the Vanilla path are they locked into that path? Can they switch in and out of Vanilla CoT play and New play? If so, how do you handle gear? Does their piece of mail gear suddenly transform into leather when they get out? Do we go by old design of gear where the stats were all over the board? Do the characters themselves go by the old style of balance with stats or the new balance of stats per spec? What about specs that have changed dramatically?

Really there are just way too many changes for them to be even considered the same game. That leads me back to my first point, they need to be stand alone experiences.

All that aside, I think Blizzard is full of shit that they don't have their original source code. Considering there are dozens if not hundreds of unofficial servers that have it, for Blizzard not to would just be extreme negligence.



The rub there is, sites like Nost were able to do it with a few people, unpaid, as a project of love. I'm pretty sure if a few weekend warriors can keep a server going and completely managed, that a team of paid employees from Blizzard could easily do it. Nost had about 1 million subs at it's peek. Blizzard had 5.4 million at last official count release. If a huge multi-billion dollar company can't do what a small group of 4 devs and 2 admins did on their weekends, that's pretty sad.

I have said nothing about Blizzard not being able to make them game. They proberly even have the vanilla game stored away somewhere in the basement and all it takes is to dedicate servers to the version. The problem is that you have to have 2 versions of WoW run at the same time. Even Vanilla WoW was a huge game and having both Classic WoW and Current WoW be in the same game file, is gonna create a massive file when it comes to data space. Some players play on laptops or poor big PCs and will be quite affected in the WoW file increased in data space by alot. That is the problem that i am putting out, not anything with that it is too hard for blizz to make Classic.

But lets start that discussion anyway: The Classic version that nost used was alright, but not on the lvl of something, that Blizz puts out. They are a big company with very high standards. They don't put out games unless they fufill these standards, so even if they could take nost data, they would have to do ALOT of work before it being ready for their servers. They would also have to dedicate devs fulltime to the project, train new GMs and new costumer-support people and find out how many servers to run it on. The current game of WoW have millions of players. If Blizzard creates Classic WoW inside the current WoW game, they have to be ready for 100% of the playerbase to switch over, which would require alot of serverspace, which costs alot of money.


Things are not as simply as you put them out to be. When it comes to the Classic server and Blizzard, it is not a question if they can, but a question on how much worth it is. Big companies work in 2 year programs atleast, so Classic have to make alot of money for atleast 2 years before it is financially viable for Blizz. Will it do that? Maybe. But there is alot of risk in it. Risk that i would understand if Blizzard did not take.

[Doomchicken]

There is something that the pro legacy people continually forget, and that is Blizzard, like ALL video game companies that make video games are a BUSINESS. This means they have to develop something that is going to make a PROFIT. Considering the amount of man hours it would take to rebuild the old world from scratch, integrate it into their current systems, pay for the upkeep on the servers for them and all the salaries on the support staff from the release to the shutdown it would NEED to potentially make a significant amount of money in the long term in order for the project to be worth it.

That last sentence of the previous paragraph is the key. The long term. We're not talking about 2-3 months, but for YEARS, and how many people are actually willing to shell out the cash for such a long term? How much growth is there in a static product that will never evolve or change past a specific point? After creating over a million accounts even that larger pirate server after a year only had 150k active accounts left by the time they were shut down. That's an approximate 85 percent DROP in active accounts on a server that's tailored SPECIFICALLY for them when they're playing for FREE. No wonder Blizzard doesn't want to do it. If you can't keep even keep the majority of your playerbase playing on something that they apparently want after a year at no cost to them, what chances are there that people will PAY to do the same? Not enough, is the answer. Not now anyway.

[Relapses]

I have said nothing about Blizzard not being able to make them game. They proberly even have the vanilla game stored away somewhere in the basement and all it takes is to dedicate servers to the version. The problem is that you have to have 2 versions of WoW run at the same time. Even Vanilla WoW was a huge game and having both Classic WoW and Current WoW be in the same game file, is gonna create a massive file when it comes to data space. Some players play on laptops or poor big PCs and will be quite affected in the WoW file increased in data space by alot. That is the problem that i am putting out, not anything with that it is too hard for blizz to make Classic.

Blizzard still has the source. Here's a quote from the post-meeting with that-which-cannot-be-named's CM, Viper:

“First, they DO have the source code for Vanilla WoW. Code version control systems are not something new, as it has been a standard in the industry for a long time. With these systems, they can retrieve the code at any given previous backup date.”

“However, in order to generate the server (and the client), a complex build system is being used. It is not just about generating the ‘WoW.exe’ and ‘Server.exe’ files. The build process takes data, models, maps, etc. created by Blizzard and also generates client and server specific files. The client only has the information it needs and the server only has the information that it needs.”

“This means that before re-launching vanilla realms, all of the data needed for the build processes has to be gathered in one place with the code. Not all of this information was under a version control system. In the end, whichever of these parts were lost at any point, they will have to be recreated: this is likely to take a lot of resources through a long development process.”

So recovering the metadata is one of the biggest hurdle for Legacy realms to overcome. After that, there's B.net integration and the constant support such realms would require. But as you touched on, the other enormous hurdle is how having two versions of the same game available causes a split in the community. Giving the community choice is one thing, but Legacy is the sort of thing which can dismantle a player base from the inside out. Imagine a guild in the midst of heavy tier progression losing a MT, its best healer or one of its most consistently performing DPS because they'd rather play Legacy WoW instead. Imagine the backlash from players who feel like their "version" of WoW is the authentic, best version. The endless flame wars between retail players and Legacy players. It's just a huge can of worms that's better left untouched.

Regardless, there's still a place for Legacy in Blizzard's gaming arsenal. The interest definitely warrants merit. There's only one way for Blizzard to pursue Legacy without causing the communal split I mentioned earlier: I personally believe that the best time for them to explore this possibility is after they've closed down the retail storyline and are no longer actively creating new expansions. Whether that's two, five or ten years from now is anybody's guess but I think it's inevitable for Blizzard to shutter WoW at some point and Legacy would be a perfect way for them to continue bilking the IP after they've officially shut down its retail subscription service.

[Kyanion]

The rub there is, sites like Nost were able to do it with a few people, unpaid, as a project of love. I'm pretty sure if a few weekend warriors can keep a server going and completely managed, that a team of paid employees from Blizzard could easily do it. Nost had about 1 million subs at it's peek. Blizzard had 5.4 million at last official count release. If a huge multi-billion dollar company can't do what a small group of 4 devs and 2 admins did on their weekends, that's pretty sad.

Running an emulator is NOT the same thing that Blizzard would be putting out if they made official Legacy servers. Period. Nost didn't have 1 million subs, even worse people like you will believe whatever numbers they put out because these people are totally legit and have no reason to fudge any sort of numbers right? They had a retention rate of sub 20% on supposedly the GOLDEN ERA of WoW and it was FREE. Think about that. They couldn't even keep people engaged for that long while it was a free game.

Another thing people gloss over is that Nost wasn't even around that long in the grand scheme of things. What would have happened when people started maxing out their characters (by the way they would have done it far faster than true Vanilla)? People were going to get bored once they hit the max level and didn't want to dungeon grind or raid grind. So many people talk about the 'journey' that was leveling to max level that lord knows if they'd have stuck around for more.

Those are things Blizz have to consider when making Legacy a reality, will people PAY for it and stick around long enough for it to be worth it? So far the answer seems like: Nope.

- - - Updated - - -

That last sentence of the previous paragraph is the key. The long term. We're not talking about 2-3 months, but for YEARS, and how many people are actually willing to shell out the cash for such a long term? How much growth is there in a static product that will never evolve or change past a specific point? After creating over a million accounts even that larger pirate server after a year only had 150k active accounts left by the time they were shut down. That's an approximate 85 percent DROP in active accounts on a server that's tailored SPECIFICALLY for them when they're playing for FREE. No wonder Blizzard doesn't want to do it. If you can't keep even keep the majority of your playerbase playing on something that they apparently want after a year at no cost to them, what chances are there that people will PAY to do the same? Not enough, is the answer. Not now anyway.

Exactly, as I said it is supposedly the best WoW has ever been, Vanilla. But it had a sub 20% retention rate on a fucking FREE realm. That is pathetic.

[Akka]

But the people pining away for it? The people posting threads saying "bring it back"? Those people are fueled by nostalgia. Again, that's NOT a bad thing! Nostalgia is a great way to get yourself back into something you once loved. It's a reason to experience things again.

The problem, again (you really seem to have a hard time getting this) is :
1) Using nostalgia as a pretext to dismiss any argument (as in "he supports this because of nostalgia, not because it's actually good").
2) Your definition of nostalgia is completely bogus. Get it right first.

But as you touched on, the other enormous hurdle is how having two versions of the same game available causes a split in the community. Giving the community choice is one thing, but Legacy is the sort of thing which can dismantle a player base from the inside out.

This argument doesn't hold a lot of water considering nothing has dismantled the community more than Blizzard itself since WotLK.

[Relapses]

This argument doesn't hold a lot of water considering nothing has dismantled the community more than Blizzard itself since WotLK.

Way to completely ignore the part where I gave valid, prescient examples of the innumerable ways Legacy servers could negatively impact the experience of the game for its currently paying customers to interject what is little more than a callous, cynical opinion of the direction Blizzard has taken the game.

[Akka]

Way to completely ignore the part where I gave valid, prescient examples of the innumerable ways Legacy servers could negatively impact the experience of the game for its currently paying customers to interject what is little more than a callous, cynical opinion of the direction Blizzard has taken the game.

Yeah, because the community being dismantled due to LFD, LFR, CRZ and so on is certainly NOT a subject that has been constantly raised up, sure.

[Relapses]

Yeah, because the community being dismantled due to LFD, LFR, CRZ and so on is certainly NOT a subject that has been constantly raised up, sure.

And who's to say those things aren't exactly the reason the game is still around today?

[Benomatic]

Yeah, because the community being dismantled due to LFD, LFR, CRZ and so on is certainly NOT a subject that has been constantly raised up, sure.

You have a valid point. The inclusion of these features certainly added to the decline of realm identity.

[Deleted]

yeah... buying nost code instead of sueing them... wonder how copyright law looks at that in regards to protecting your IP.

[Trapped]

That would be enormous undertaking, part of the "lure" of Vanilla is not just the zones - it's the mechanics. Those systems have changes *a lot*
Building all that into one instance doesn't seem plausible, technically.

And I'm quite sure Blizzard doesn't want to touch Nost "code". It's tainted.

People like Vanilla WoW for what it was, and how it used to be. The community was better, guilds actually meant something, and it was an amazing new world to explore. I don't think you can recreate that experience again, no matter how hard you try. Current WoW could be like that, but the community is far too toxic and the whole concept of guilds and server communities have been gutted.

TL;DR: Vanilla WoW wasn't better, the people/community were better.

[Nalam the Venom]

This might be a bad example. But upto the release of CoD infinite warfare the loud majority kept saying how bad IW looked and that CoD 4 Remastered was it's only reason people would buy the game. Now awhile after release on the statistics i've seen, Remastered has a Lot less players than IW. So i see this "We want vanilla" As just a alot of people Screaming, But in the end that version of the game won't have many players at all. So just stop, Vanilla has come and gone, It won't be back, Ever. Atleast not through the official launcher.

[RobertMugabe]

If Nost still has usable code, use that code to rebuild classic. <-This is the only way to do this which doesn't require an impossible amount of dev time (if at all this is possible of course.)

I have to say a couple of things to this:
First of all Nosts code would not only be unusable for Blizzard, but also useless.
Second, Blizzard definetly has somewhere a backup lying around, but then again they don't need it.

On the server side of things, Blizzard hasn't removed all the old-world quests, but just deprecated them, meaning, they are still there but simply never used and marked as deprecated (and if they have removed some quest, copying them over to the databse isn't probably going to be a challenge, I am sure they have a program which converts old sql scripts to their new database, if anything has changed there since).

On the client side of things, the way HOW WoW manages files has changed from MPQ packages to CASC, BUT all those map files, music files, textures etc. are still the same today as they were in vanilla. What I want to say here is, that Blizzard can EASILY copy over the old world maps over to the Legion client.