Should being fat result in having to pay more taxes?

[Krastyn]

Read the post that you responded to back and again and see if it seems like I addressed this or not.

You claim it's very few. I believe otherwise. BMI just tells you how much over normal you are in weight, not fat. It's terrible for athletes. It also gets worse the closer you are to extremes in height (both tall and short)

[Spectral]

You claim it's very few. I believe otherwise. BMI just tells you how much over normal you are in weight, not fat. It's terrible for athletes. It also gets worse the closer you are to extremes in height (both tall and short)

Here's the citation I'm usually inclined to provide. For men, 95% of men with obese BMIs are obese by body fat measurements. For women, it's 99%. I guess we could argue what "very few" means, but the bottom line is that obesity statistics aren't a result of miscounting athletes.

[rosebull]

I may have phrased that badly. All I've been trying to say through this entire thread is that it's not as easy for everyone to stay at a healthy weight. Some people can eat until they are full and stay slim. Others eat until they are full, stop, and still put on weight. Even if slowly (but steadily).

For sure, sorry if I overreacted this is a trigger subject for me as a personal trainer.

[Krastyn]

Here's the citation I'm usually inclined to provide. For men, 95% of men with obese BMIs are obese by body fat measurements. For women, it's 99%. I guess we could argue what "very few" means, but the bottom line is that obesity statistics aren't a result of miscounting athletes.

So what about the conclusion that states:

Despite the good correlation between BMI and BF %, the diagnostic accuracy of BMI to diagnose obesity is limited, particularly for individuals in the intermediate BMI ranges.

You can even look at other parts such as:

To further assess the variability of BF% for a given BMI value, we selected 108 subjects (54 men and 54 women) who had a BMI of 25 kg/m2, and found that in men, the distribution of BF % widely ranged from 13.8% to 35.3%

So 54 men had the same BMI of 25, which puts them on the border of normal-overweight, but a body fat percentage range of 21.5%.

This report seems to back exactly what I'm saying.

[Spectral]

So what about the conclusion that states:


You can even look at other parts such as:


So 54 men had the same BMI of 25, which puts them on the border of normal-overweight, but a body fat percentage range of 21.5%.

This report seems to back exactly what I'm saying.

It really doesn't. It states that BMI underestimates the number of people that are overfat, but that pretty much everyone who's obese by BMI is also obese by body fat percentage.

[Aggrophobic]

Energy <> quantity



Well, no - it is more complex than that.

I don't have any way of losing weight without help - that's a fact. I don't have sufficient money to get help either.

You youngsters need to realise the world is a complex place, and there are lots of shades of colour and variety in the world.

Pure bullshit.
Get out and run for a few hours every week and you'll lose weight.

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It's just that. Eating less is hell of a lot harder for some than others. Someone's body is going to be screaming for food, while someone else's feels perfectly pleased.

Then it's a discipline issue.
I have no intrest in paying for your lack of self control.

[jdbond592]

Yes. Start with Trump.

[Krastyn]

It really doesn't. It states that BMI underestimates the number of people that are overfat, but that pretty much everyone who's obese by BMI is also obese by body fat percentage.

Let me quote it one more time, and bold the part you seem to be missing:

Despite the good correlation between BMI and BF %, the diagnostic accuracy of BMI to diagnose obesity is limited, particularly for individuals in the intermediate BMI ranges.

To further bring this point home, you quoted this part of the report:

A BMI ≥ 30 had a high specificity (95% in men and 99% in women),

But you couldn't even quote the entire sentence, which continues on to say:

but a poor sensitivity (36% and 49 %, respectively) to detect BF %-defined obesity

Or the statement before that line, which said how BMI missed 30% of the BF% obsese people.

The entire report also made no mention of height of any of the participants, only focusing on age and weight. It doesn't surprise me the results were less specific for men than women, because men are typically taller, and have more muscle mass.

BMI is outdated. It's great if you want a quick check, and you're in the 5'5" to 5'9" range. If you're outside that range, expect false positives and false negatives.

[Spectral]

Let me quote it one more time, and bold the part you seem to be missing:


To further bring this point home, you quoted this part of the report:


But you couldn't even quote the entire sentence, which continues on to say:


Or the statement before that line, which said how BMI missed 30% of the BF% obsese people.

The entire report also made no mention of height of any of the participants, only focusing on age and weight. It doesn't surprise me the results were less specific for men than women, because men are typically taller, and have more muscle mass.

BMI is outdated. It's great if you want a quick check, and you're in the 5'5" to 5'9" range. If you're outside that range, expect false positives and false negatives.

Again, all you're quoting is that it fails to identify all fat people. Most people that it identifies as fat really are fat. I think you're not understanding the Venn diagram here.

[LilSaihah]

I don't know if I'd want to tax them, but it makes sense. I wouldn't mind it if they put more money into preventative measures.

Or maybe they should stop subsidizing shit food, I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

[Krastyn]

Again, all you're quoting is that it fails to identify all fat people. I think you're not understanding the Venn diagram here.

And it also fails to account for people's height, which other studies have shown skews the results. It's one thing to say it has 95% specificity for all men, but if it is 99% for men 5'5" to 5'9", and 75% for men taller than 5'9", that changes things.

So BMI may be good at telling you you're obese if it says you're obese, but more likely than not can't tell if you are if the number doesn't say so. A 64% chance at a false negative is a bad test.

It's a two dimensional formula in a three dimensional world. It was made in the 1830's. We've learned a lot since then.

But this not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is whether the individual should be taxed, and I believe we both agree that they should not. Sugar tax, sure. Unhealthy food is unhealthy regardless of who is eating it. And on a pure $/calorie basis, unhealthy food is way cheaper than healthy.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The type of food doesn't matter for weight though. I'm sure he eats like garbage but the amount is what needs to be looked at. Sure he'll eat that super megasize combo at the burger joint and maybe some sodas but what else is he consuming? Is that his only meal of the day? What does the sister eat? Exactly how much does she eat? What are they physical activity levels at? Does he move a lot? Is she sedentary? etc

He eats far more than his sister, or even my own brothers, in a day and works in an office. He's somewhat physically active but his sister is the one doing sports. Yes, the sister that has to guard her weight.

It's not as simple as you try and make it out to be, and science is only beginning to scratch the surface of deeper explanations to these things. Mind you, those deeper explanations won't be "it's all down to genes" or "all down to gut bacteria"... But they've shown that people who are aware that they have the genes more prone in obese people (and mice) can become smarter with how they eat.

Woman gained weight after faecal transplant

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Yes. Start with Trump.

Heh, pretty sure Trump has fat shamed women more than once... And as a rich person, he'd just evade the taxes.

[Orlong]

Being fat costs the state more, therefore it is only fair that you have to pay more taxes.

Sure, as long they also charge more to drug users, smokers, old people alcoholics. athletes, drivers, skiers, boaters, skydivers, and anyone else who is likely to need more healthcare than an 18 year old tee totaller who never leaves the house. So pretty much everyone

[Powerogue]

I'd rather tax stupidity.

Debt collector won't find me.

Good in concept, but that's much harder to objectively measure.

[meekus]

Then it's a discipline issue.
I have no intrest in paying for your lack of self control.

I don't think you get it. What I'm talking about hardly has anything to do with discipline. Try to go around hungry all the time and see if you can do it forever. I bet that's not something you're already doing in order to stay at a healthy weight.

[zorkuus]

Good in concept, but that's much harder to objectively measure.

Do you believe in flat earth? Yes or no.

[dwarven]

There's no sales tax on groceries in most states.

There is tax on junk food.

[Allenseiei]

Depends on how your country handles taxes.

In welfare countries, such as in EU, South Korea and Japan, they should, but done differently than just "paying more tax". What I mean by this is that if you have to be treated for obesity and it's not related to any illness, the government (or rather us tax payers) will revoke partially (or totally) the public coverage for that particular treatment. Unless you completely lack any type of income, which then it should be loaned to you with no interests, but proper control of the debt.

In the US they already have many states where you don't get proper public healthcare coverage so nothing to do there. In states that do have such coverage (or partial coverage) I think similar actions to what I said above would be satisfactory.

I think there should be more information shoved people's face about how in such interwined societies you end up affecting the people around you with your bad habits. Negative externalities such as obesity should be avoided when posible.

[Deleted]

Being Fat already makes you pay more taxes, you buy more food and the food tax is therefor higher for you.

[AeneasBK]

It already does, doesn't it?