Best DPS spec without legendaries

[Hydrant]

Hey guys.

I've finally found a 20-man static and currently maining a blood tank. We have plans to do some mythic content and so I gave up an idea of gearing my offspec with legendaries. There are many discussions on dk thread about different dps specs and builds involving some synergy with respecting legendaries.

The main reason I created this thread: what is the best spec for dk having no dps legendaries? By "best" I mean only performance - there can be some situations when i'll need to switch for dps and in these situations I want to help my raid as well. As I dont have dps legendaries, it is absolutely irrelevant for me will it be UH or Frost.

Thanks for any comments in advance!

PS Sorry for poor grammar too :P

[Cerunnir]

They perform almost the same, play the spec you prefer.

[Akakishin]

Frost w/o legendaries shits on uh. Be it RA/GA build or FF/GS/OB. It has a consistent high damage going on with short burst cds, wont be flying from 300 to 900 bacl and force which means if you get to adds fast you'll do good damage on them. Uh (even with legendaries) is everything against performance and priority target in a mythic environment and wants you to be on the boss and stacked adds all the time rather than switching. Same goes for frost breath which curses you for switching targets.

[Cerunnir]

Frost w/o legendaries shits on uh. Be it RA/GA build or FF/GS/OB. It has a consistent high damage going on with short burst cds, wont be flying from 300 to 900 bacl and force which means if you get to adds fast you'll do good damage on them. Uh (even with legendaries) is everything against performance and priority target in a mythic environment and wants you to be on the boss and stacked adds all the time rather than switching. Same goes for frost breath which curses you for switching targets.

This is simply false. Unholy after 7.1.5 with clawing shadows build is competitive with frost with or without legendaries. Target swapping got a whole lot better after the patch. Unholy is competitive in all aspects of a fight, although isnt quite as bursty as frost single target.

[Emeraldon]

Frost w/o legendaries shits on uh. Be it RA/GA build or FF/GS/OB. It has a consistent high damage going on with short burst cds, wont be flying from 300 to 900 bacl and force which means if you get to adds fast you'll do good damage on them. Uh (even with legendaries) is everything against performance and priority target in a mythic environment and wants you to be on the boss and stacked adds all the time rather than switching. Same goes for frost breath which curses you for switching targets.

What do you base this on? It's completely false.

[Amalkatrazz]

This is simply false. Unholy after 7.1.5 with clawing shadows build is competitive with frost with or without legendaries. Target swapping got a whole lot better after the patch. Unholy is competitive in all aspects of a fight, although isnt quite as bursty as frost single target.

With DoS and and an appropriate opening, UH outbursts Frost. That, however, applies to raid encounters only. In M+, UH bursts are inconsistent because UH needs BL/Hero and Army (both on 10-minute CD) to burst properly, something that is obviously not an option in pressed-for-time keyed runs.

[Akakishin]

This is simply false. Unholy after 7.1.5 with clawing shadows build is competitive with frost with or without legendaries. Target swapping got a whole lot better after the patch. Unholy is competitive in all aspects of a fight, although isnt quite as bursty as frost single target.

I know, uh is identical to frost when they spend time on a boss and few cycle of cds are used. But he asked about performance in where he's going to "progress", you know? Nighthold is filled with priority targets, most which uh needs time to catch up and they're not gonna live for a full cycle of SR, most of them actually shouldn't . Wether it's cs or casti, the fact that building up outside of opener is just slow (compared to frost) devalues it vs frost. He asked which one will perform on mythic. It's frost. Dk can not out dps other melees (w/o good pair of legendaries) on boss damage, priority and cleave is the only scenario where frost performs ok due to its static power outside of cds, and uh ... Just no
Again we're talking about the scenario op described where there is no legendary involved and performance (whihc is priority targets tnx to loads of adds in every single encounter and not dpsing sometimes) is important

[Hydrant]

Thanks for your answers, guys!

Btw, whee can I read some info on ff/gs/ob build? I assume its something like discussed Gathering storm build. Somehow it was outshined by BoS build in dk dps threads. Is it viable now?

[Keren]

nope, gathering storm in itself is not viable. You either use the icy talons / frozen pulse as a core or you buidl around breath of sindragosa, which can include gathering storm if you have legendaries that support your rune regen like the belt and the ring.

[Cerunnir]

I know, uh is identical to frost when they spend time on a boss and few cycle of cds are used. But he asked about performance in where he's going to "progress", you know? Nighthold is filled with priority targets, most which uh needs time to catch up and they're not gonna live for a full cycle of SR, most of them actually shouldn't . Wether it's cs or casti, the fact that building up outside of opener is just slow (compared to frost) devalues it vs frost. He asked which one will perform on mythic. It's frost. Dk can not out dps other melees (w/o good pair of legendaries) on boss damage, priority and cleave is the only scenario where frost performs ok due to its static power outside of cds, and uh ... Just no
Again we're talking about the scenario op described where there is no legendary involved and performance (whihc is priority targets tnx to loads of adds in every single encounter and not dpsing sometimes) is important

But UH have very little build up now on target swaps. We dot up the target then swap and drop 1 Festering strike, which in itself is also good damage and then proceed to DPS at full speed. They fixed alot of the ramp up issues UH had with 7.1.5. There is no issues what so ever to target swap and focus down priority targets with UH. Although they are not quite as fast as frost, the lost speed at which we swap, is more than made up for with our insane burst aoe and excellent cleave damage. With set bonuses target swapping is going to be even less of an issue.. aswell.

The main issue for unholy would be target swap burst single target without cooldowns. The main weakness of UH would be very short lived single target adds (Like 10-15 seconds max before they die). We are extremly strong in short lived packs (AoE) that must die very fast (10-15 sec). Sustained ST is middle of the pack, sustained AOE is towards the top of the pack.

I think you are basing your impression of Unholy pre 7.1.5. Alot changed for us with the patch.

- - - Updated - - -

With DoS and and an appropriate opening, UH outbursts Frost. That, however, applies to raid encounters only. In M+, UH bursts are inconsistent because UH needs BL/Hero and Army (both on 10-minute CD) to burst properly, something that is obviously not an option in pressed-for-time keyed runs.

Our AOE is excellent. Hands down. Very few classes can come close to match my total output through a mythic+ dungeon. I play ALOT of mythic plus, everything from +2 to +13 or more, and the number of times someone managed to do more DPS than me total through a mythic dungeon is.. few and far between.

BL/Army isnt where we get damage from in mythic plus, its Defile + Clawing shadows spam with transformed abomination stacking wounds through infected claws.. Its absolutly sickening AOE output, and defile is up for almost every trash pack unless its very low mythic plus. Boss burst damage with Hero/Army does not matter much, its the total output through the dungeon that will get you good 3 chests. Even with defile on cooldown, I do competitive AoE DPS and I keep pace with "anyone" with only my regular cleave output.

[Hydrant]

As I presume, the main requirements for this hypothetical spec are:

- priority target burst;
- good burst during vulnerability windows (with bloodlust/heroism)
- single target sustained damage.
(With respective order). Whats about UH in these terms?

As for now I tried RA/GA frost (during 7.1) and it was OK. In 7.1.5 I tried BoS, but due to lack of legendaries my breath uptime was meh and I imagine BoS build in raid evironment as "pure nightmare" when you need to disengage the boss.

[Amalkatrazz]

Thanks for your answers, guys!

Btw, whee can I read some info on ff/gs/ob build? I assume its something like discussed Gathering storm build. Somehow it was outshined by BoS build in dk dps threads. Is it viable now?

To my knowledge, GS is only viable as a supplementary talent in BoS-based builds, since you spam obliterate like crazy in those builds, enabling you to maximize the uptime of your Remorseless Winter while it has +150% damage buff from the talent.

- - - Updated - - -

As I presume, the main requirements for this hypothetical spec are:

- priority target burst;
- good burst during vulnerability windows (with bloodlust/heroism)
- single target sustained damage.
(With respective order). Whats about UH in these terms?

As for now I tried RA/GA frost (during 7.1) and it was OK. In 7.1.5 I tried BoS, but due to lack of legendaries my breath uptime was meh and I imagine BoS build in raid evironment as "pure nightmare" when you need to disengage the boss.

I haven't tried Mythic NH, but Normal and Heroic bosses of this raid seem quite BoS-friendly except probably Tichondrius and a couple of others, where you'd prefer FSc anyway due to the crazy cleave it provides.

[Vasculio]

Thanks for your answers, guys!

Btw, whee can I read some info on ff/gs/ob build? I assume its something like discussed Gathering storm build. Somehow it was outshined by BoS build in dk dps threads. Is it viable now?

In the resources section of the DK discord. There is a google doc with all the info you'll need for all major frost builds. I'd link it here but my post count is too low.

[Akakishin]

As I presume, the main requirements for this hypothetical spec are:

- priority target burst;
- good burst during vulnerability windows (with bloodlust/heroism)
- single target sustained damage.
(With respective order). Whats about UH in these terms?

As for now I tried RA/GA frost (during 7.1) and it was OK. In 7.1.5 I tried BoS, but due to lack of legendaries my breath uptime was meh and I imagine BoS build in raid evironment as "pure nightmare" when you need to disengage the boss.

Un terms of number of adds and each specs' power (w/o legendaries, so no point in taking bos, its not weaker, but it doesn't worth it since you have to ignore everything in your +40sec windows while normal frost build can do everything with same dps) :
Skorpyorn : Equally destructive but I'd lean ro uh for the bestmelee cleave on this fight
Chronomatic anomaly : Frost (RA/GA) that one "always far away" add
Triliax : CS uh is as good as RA frost here I'd prefer OB over GA here for frost
Spellblade : Definitely frost GA for stupid elemental adds if you ever need to switch to them, if not then w/e
Krosus: Imps should die asap, and yeah, GA, you wouldn't need full OB for like one imp
That high dude who got betrayed: Cleave in 2/3 of the fight with super prio adds, in mythic its council fight, I'd say frost RA/GA for this one
Tichondrius: Cs Uh and ra/ga are both powerful here spcly those damn 6 7 adds in 2nd and 3rd phase, sweet mother of guldan!

Star something something, that st boss : RA/OB i prefer, for the fact that that one add in last phase should die fast.
Elisande: Frost RA/GA, bcuz you move a lot and there is a nasty haste buff that you can reset <3 also adds should die instantly and they aren't uh friendly
Gul'an: First half of the fight ia the only time where uh is on par imo. But in second half with single empowered adds frost is just better. Also if you use pillars when inquisitor is up, it'll be ready for every eye spawn with extra ability through the entire fight. So yeah RA/GA

I haven't tried Mythic NH, but Normal and Heroic bosses of this raid seem quite BoS-friendly except probably Tichondrius and a couple of others, where you'd prefer FSc anyway due to the crazy cleave it provides.

Yes they really love to be in front of your mouth while you're heavily breathing with the cost of ignoring adds in half of the fights

And i agree, uh is really powerful on this encounters.

[Hydrant]

Wow thanks for details!

What about frostscythe MG on skorpyron?

[Akakishin]

Wow thanks for details!

What about frostscythe MG on skorpyron?

You want boss damage in those 15sec windows when boss is stunned, but fscythe wouldn't hurt, haven't tried it there tho