Nighthold difficulty

[munkeyinorbit]

/facepalm

Yeah, clearing 5/7 HC the first week is "nicely balanced"...

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Even then you're probably still above the poster.

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You fail to take into account the weapons, the legendaries and the -forged proc. A HC-only raid is certainly higher than 880 today, even without mythic caches.

I have 70 people who disagree with you. A HC raid only guild is not higher than 880. They are in fact between 858 (we have a DK who is new) and 881. Three people are 880+. Everyone else is 875 or less. I think you fail to take into account that there are more of us that raid HC only than there are people who do Mythic+ dungeons. There are a lot of us who don't like them but we understand others do so we don't cry about them. It might actually help is in the future if we need to recruit new people. But just because you and your 4 friends do mythic + dungeons doesn't mean that we do them too. NH H is designed for us, not you and your 880+ buddies. If you clear it, who cares. You're over-geared for it and it isn't an achievement.

[Deleted]

I have 70 people who disagree with you. A HC raid only guild is not higher than 880. They are in fact between 858 (we have a DK who is new) and 881. Three people are 880+. Everyone else is 875 or less. I think you fail to take into account that there are more of us that raid HC only than there are people who do Mythic+ dungeons. There are a lot of us who don't like them but we understand others do so we don't cry about them. It might actually help is in the future if we need to recruit new people. But just because you and your 4 friends do mythic + dungeons doesn't mean that we do them too. NH H is designed for us, not you and your 880+ buddies. If you clear it, who cares. You're over-geared for it and it isn't an achievement.

And I also have an anecdote that contradicts yours. Here's our heroic only guild:
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...irelink+Shrine

Not a single raider in this guild has killed a single mythic raiding boss, even in EN. Yet regardless of that, 880 is generally the LOWEST equipped people we have (barring casuals and rerolls), with some pushing to go above 890 once they upgrade their second legendary or get Heroic NH pieces.

[munkeyinorbit]

This is not accurate. For the audience for whom Normal is intended, 855-865 gear will not be adequate.

It will be adequate. The first three bosses are real easy, they will raise your raid ilvl by 5+ in 2-3 weeks. Then you kill the next, and the next. More bosses down each week. maybe two pieces. Next thing you know. Your 860 ilvl guild is now 875 and you've only been doing it for 6 weeks. More bosses go down each week. Within 3 months, 880 guild, multiple players with 4 piece and you've cleared normal and are starting to look at Heroic.

Why do people act like they have to kill everything first night? Progression by an 855 ilvl guild (a normal raid guild) is still progression. Maybe they kill what they can at first and supplement it with H EN but the first three are designed for 855 ilvl and (with planning and patience) will be killed by this group of people.

[Deleted]

I think balancing in Legion is the most challenging one for blizz since the release of vanilla. Due to all the warforged, titanforgen, legendary and trait stuff you have a very wide spectrum of players blizz has never met. The biggest loosers in this content are hc raiders: hc is to easy, mythic to hard.

[Akka]

I have 70 people who disagree with you. A HC raid only guild is not higher than 880. They are in fact between 858 (we have a DK who is new) and 881. Three people are 880+. Everyone else is 875 or less. I think you fail to take into account that there are more of us that raid HC only than there are people who do Mythic+ dungeons. There are a lot of us who don't like them but we understand others do so we don't cry about them. It might actually help is in the future if we need to recruit new people. But just because you and your 4 friends do mythic + dungeons doesn't mean that we do them too. NH H is designed for us, not you and your 880+ buddies. If you clear it, who cares. You're over-geared for it and it isn't an achievement.

I despise M+, they bore me to death and I've barely done a handful of them, so I'm well aware that some people don't do them, and you really haven't chosen a good target for your "But just because you and your 4 friends do mythic + dungeons doesn't mean that we do them too".
Someone is way too touchy here.

[Osmeric]

It will be adequate. The first three bosses are real easy, they will raise your raid ilvl by 5+ in 2-3 weeks.

Ah. You meant to get started, not for everything.

Why do people act like they have to kill everything first night?

Not sure who you were talking to there, because it wasn't me.

[munkeyinorbit]

And I also have an anecdote that contradicts yours. Here's our heroic only guild:
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...irelink+Shrine

Not a single raider in this guild has killed a single mythic raiding boss, even in EN. Yet regardless of that, 880 is generally the LOWEST equipped people we have (barring casuals and rerolls), with some pushing to go above 890 once they upgrade their second legendary or get Heroic NH pieces.

that is fine. They can farm mythic+ all they like and be 890. It just makes their clear of H NH irrelevant because it isn't even designed for them. They have essentially farmed themselves out of content. Gratz for the easy clear I guess. It's not designed for you and my guilds will be taking our sweet time clearing it. Prob take about 3 months, depends on availability sometimes, but we will carry ourselves through like we have since WotLK (thats when I decided to play with friends instead of people who were raiding cutting edge).

[Deleted]

that is fine. They can farm mythic+ all they like and be 890. It just makes their clear of H NH irrelevant because it isn't even designed for them. They have essentially farmed themselves out of content. Gratz for the easy clear I guess. It's not designed for you and my guilds will be taking our sweet time clearing it. Prob take about 3 months, depends on availability sometimes, but we will carry ourselves through like we have since WotLK (thats when I decided to play with friends instead of people who were raiding cutting edge).

Way to miss the point, guess you haven't even opened the page. Most of our raiders barely have over 50 M+ dungeons over the entire existence of the xpac, nor have we cleared heroic yet. Just saying you are trying to vastly under represent the attainable raiding gear level to force your agenda.

[Soluna]

I stopped playing Legion 2 months ago due to my studies. I stopped at 30 traits on my destro legendary, 883 ilvl average on my character. I was hoping to come back and start raiding mythic relaxingly after exams at the end of this month. Reading all this though just makes me want to stay unsubbed. Guess I will wait for next expansion, when things reset again. I will go back to FF XIV instead, which doesn't punish you as hard if you skip half a minor fucking patch. I haven't played FF XIV for 3 patches, in a total of 9 months, aside from 2 times, 4 days or so each due to some trial sub time they give from time to time, and I can still really easily catch up to newest end content. Legion is good, but fuck this grindfest.

[munkeyinorbit]

Way to miss the point, guess you haven't even opened the page. Most of our raiders barely have over 50 M+ dungeons over the entire existence of the xpac, nor have we cleared heroic yet. Just saying you are trying to vastly under represent the attainable raiding gear level to force your agenda.

50+ Mythic dungeons? wow. i might have done 10 on one guy and that's a lot for the guilds I am in. I haven't even done 1 Mythic + on most of my toons. I did my 2nd Kara clear tonight. I am pretty terrible, but it is not because I have been trying heaps, I tried the first week, saw the first 5 bosses were pretty much the same, couldn't be stuffed to continue the lockout and didn't care about the rest. Only went back couple of weeks ago and yeah, I was impressed with the last fight, but once I've seen it I don't like to do it again. I made the text a bit bigger so you can read as last time you missed it. We are a Heroic only raiding guild, not a "look at me guys, we have all done more than 50 runs, but only just more than 50 runs in Mythic plus content AND a Heroic only raiding guild". There was no need to click on anything. Heroic only raiding guilds do not have 880+ rosters.

[Adramelch]

Yeah how dare they do like 3 dungeons a week. That one extra hour is clearly trying too hard.

Not to mention that there's a guy there with less than 20 m+ and almost 890 gear. Just because you have self-appointed yourself as the "intended target of heroic" doesn't make it true, you know.

The scaling during heroic testing was 879 for what it's worth.

[fangless]

Idk, our core 13 man Heroic only roster is at least 880. Most of these people barely log in during the week, only about 5 of us do our +10 keys each week, etc.
880 is not hard, this game really throws loot at you :P

We did ToV H at 875 when we got Helya, and we'll be doing NH at 881 avg for Heroic. If it's targeted for anything lower than that, then Blizzard missed the mark, imo.

[SpamHealzu]

I'm all for tuning mythic for the top 2500 guilds. This means, around 2500 guilds should have cleared mythic before the next raid content releases.

Also, initial tuning should be around 0 legendaries (you just can't tune a raid around so many different legendaries) and traits in the low 40's, increasing through the raid (with the last bosses requiring 50-54), or even the entire raid tuned around mid-40 traits, but that last part I mentioned is highly unlikely.

By now everyone should have two legendaries in mythic guilds, most likely 3+. Im hoping the balance mythic NH in three tiers of traits:

First 4 bosses - 40-45 traits (avg around 43)
Second 4 bosses (although probably 3 as Botanist looks rough) - 45-50 traits (avg around 48)
Last 2-3 Bosses - 50-54 traits (with Guldan basically needing 54 for P3 & P4 dps checks)

[Deleted]

How did you possibly find such a group?

Openraid or similar site? Semi-guild run? What was the ilvl, close to 900?

Cause using the premade finder is simply not doable. I could make that list you did and add almost 50 wipes to EACH of the bosses between Botanist to Starcaller (you missed 1 boss btw, krosus), on NORMAL and we didnt even kill them.

I never suffered this much in a raid since... well... ever And it's such a shame cause the bosses are fun, just too hard.

It was lfr tool from the beginning. Searched 1 hour, checked logs and wowprogress. Average 890 equipped starting from the last 2 bosses, around 885 before that. Last 2 bosses are very hard with lfr, since they are punishing failers and guldan had no good tacticvideos. So there had to be many replacements, which made other people leave, since there was much downtime. etc.

[Krom2040]

My main is a warrior at 886 equipped ilvl, and I'm around 42-43 on both my Prot and Fury weapons because I'm good with both roles and consequently kind of the "third tank" if ever one of the other tanks can't make it for whatever reason. Presumably, I'd be around ~50 or so if I only ever played one spec.

I'll tell you what, it feels really annoying how poorly they've accommodated people who play multiple specs in this expansion. Between the legendaries and the Artifact Power, it feels as though you're strictly better just having a separate character for each spec. It seems bizarre that they made so much progress on letting players swap between specs in the last couple of expansions, just to pull the rug out from under that design in this one.

[Mtburn]

I tell you how and why its so insane (this is from another thread as well):

I calculated a little bit. On avarage, every fight lasted 3 minutes before we all died from general damage, either from dead tanks and aggro or oom healers or simply too much damage (not just Krosus, all of them). That means this:

1500000000 HP divided by 14 DPS (not counting tanks etc atm) is about 107million damage needed per DPS.
107 million damage divided by 3min, aka 180 seconds is 595 000.

To kill any normal boss, EVERY DPS must have 595 000 DPS in NORMAL MODE to have a chance. Sure, tanks do some damage too, even if tanks match DPSs damage, it's minimum 520 000 DPS.

This is still insane for a Normal mode fight. And this is if you DPS ALL the time, aka constantly for 180 seconds, and you don't.

What you say here is completely ridiculous. Most fights are designed to take longer than 3 minutes as a few other persons have already said, and if your healers are oom after 3 mins they are doing something wrong. Also, your tanks should still be up after 3 minutes.

Keep complaining about how hard normal mode is, you are probably one of the persons LFR was designed for.

[Deleted]

Way to miss the point, guess you haven't even opened the page. Most of our raiders barely have over 50 M+ dungeons over the entire existence of the xpac, nor have we cleared heroic yet. Just saying you are trying to vastly under represent the attainable raiding gear level to force your agenda.

I think you need to check your friends on wowprogress. I clicked 7-8 of them randomly and they had 100+ mythic clears done on time. Some over 200.

[Chaelexi]

This is not accurate. For the audience for whom Normal is intended, 855-865 gear will not be adequate.

For the first wing 865 will be fine on normal, I pugged the first 5 on normal with the group average Ilvl of 870 and we only stopped because it was late on Saturday. You will then be able to gear through normal and move on to the next bosses while clearing M+ and LFR to improve gear. The difficulty design is spot on.

[stolker]

I pugged 10/10 normal in 3 hour runs on two separate low geared twinks on 870 equipped raid. I have no idea what kind of bad players you guys who have problems in normal must be playing with. If you're in a guild that is actually struggling with normal, I strongly suggest looking at your raid lead or guild leads because typically when they are shit they are the first reason the raid is failing.

[Darkynhalvos]

This is not accurate. For the audience for whom Normal is intended, 855-865 gear will not be adequate.

Since normal drops 875+, does that mean you should have 870-880 to have a reasonable chance?
Seems to me you're saying players should match or exceed the ilvl of drops in order to run anything.