Should the base set of cards that don't rotate out get a large-ish revamp?

[HisDudeness]

Rather have them nerf cards into oblivion than completely loosing deck archetypes as is the case now. Some classes like rogue get even less than they had to play in standard. Now you say, oh yeah we have wild for that! But you know, no one, including blizzard as they stated themselves, gives a crap about that. So why should we? Besides that, how is it fun getting so many cards back in the next expansion that are carbon copies or even watered down versions of what we had before? Isn't that basically the same as nerfing? In addition it also devalues your card collection greatly, makes every card feel the same and also takes up unnecessary design space for future expansions.

Blizzard should actually just nerf the current cards and actually release cool new and exciting cards instead of having to waste half of an expansion giving cards back that were taken away. I remember it was supposed to shake up the whole meta and allow for interesting new ways to play (of which I have found zero yet) so they should just admit what they did wasn't the right approach and just start nerfing.

Just stop you are making too much sense! These guys won't follow.

- - - Updated - - -

It's actually hilarious that you think Freeze Mage would be viable without Thaurissan and Torch

Freeze mage has been a consistent deck since beta. Just sigh.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously you are unaware that several high level HS pros are on the HS balance team. lmao

Completely and utterly wrong. The pros cooperate with them doing tournaments etc but that is it.

I suggest you all expand your forum horizons before commenting. MMO champ is the worse when it comes to this game. It's good for WoW and other off topic/video game talk but HS? lol no..just no.

Just had a funny game which happens quite often. I'm rank 5 and playing secret hunter. Nothing new to it. I have 3 hunter quest to do. Face a dragon priest who is Ropecoaching it. He's thinking, He's drawing cards, he's calculating. My turns takes 3 seconds top. Game over at turn 9. Took me like...3 hours max to hit 5 playing only secret hunter...This game is dumb lol.

[Pantalaimon]

Just had a funny game which happens quite often. I'm rank 5 and playing secret hunter. Nothing new to it. I have 3 hunter quest to do. Face a dragon priest who is Ropecoaching it. He's thinking, He's drawing cards, he's calculating. My turns takes 3 seconds top. Game over at turn 9. Took me like...3 hours max to hit 5 playing only secret hunter...This game is dumb lol.

Love it when people like you pretend that aggro only exists in Hearthstone and that aggro's existence, as well as its simpleton plays, means that Hearthstone is dumb or bad or no brainer. Hate to break it to you, but aggro exists in almost every card game, and is more or less the same easy to use playstyle. Kinda played Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments long before HS was around and it was just as easy to wreck people with aggro in that game what with Wave Motion Cannons, Lava Golems, Amoebas, heck even gadget decks. Don't try to scapegoat HS for something that is very widespread in most card games.

- - - Updated - - -

Rather have them nerf cards into oblivion than completely loosing deck archetypes as is the case now. Some classes like rogue get even less than they had to play in standard. Now you say, oh yeah we have wild for that! But you know, no one, including blizzard as they stated themselves, gives a crap about that. So why should we? Besides that, how is it fun getting so many cards back in the next expansion that are carbon copies or even watered down versions of what we had before? Isn't that basically the same as nerfing? In addition it also devalues your card collection greatly, makes every card feel the same and also takes up unnecessary design space for future expansions.

Blizzard should actually just nerf the current cards and actually release cool new and exciting cards instead of having to waste half of an expansion giving cards back that were taken away. I remember it was supposed to shake up the whole meta and allow for interesting new ways to play (of which I have found zero yet) so they should just admit what they did wasn't the right approach and just start nerfing.

Um, nerfing cards in many cases does destroy deck archtypes if the deck is solely built around a particular card or combination of cards, I don't know why you're acting like it doesn't.

You criticize the split format for a variety of reasons, but then don't address the same types of problems that nerfing causes. For example, you say reprinting cards, or even making new ones in the standard format devalue card collections, but you ignore the glaring fact that nerfed cards that can't be used competitively anymore (and in some cases are so bad that they can't even be used for fun anymore either) also devalues players' collections who decide they want to keep the wild format cards instead of dusting them. Do you think players who keep their wild cards want those cards turned into unplayable eye-candy because you'd rather cards get nerfed into oblivion instead of having two formats? That is worse than physical cards games that have typical ban lists because at least the physical card games can still allow players to personally play without the banned lists, using all of the cards, between friends or host unofficial tournaments in a non-banned list format. If you alter cards in a digital card game you basically destroy the copies of the cards that all of the players have.

Your statement about Blizzard reprinting cards that have been rotated out isn't completely true either. Key staples such as Loatheb, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom, Shielded Minibot, Muster for Battle, etc have all not seen standard replacements. I don't see where your complaint is coming from in all honesty.

To address your desire for new and interesting ways to play I would argue that they do exist in the meta. For the interesting part, that is completely subjective and will not argue for that point strongly since there is no right way to measure it, but for new I will give a few examples. With C'Thun, regardless of some players' dislike of it, was a new way to play. Never before in HS had any card had so much specific synergy tied to it via other minions before, nor had players ever been given a card that can be affected while present in the deck, hand, board, and 'graveyard'. Prior to N'Zoth control decks had never had a tool to swarm the board with potential value, and provide them with such a win condition that could be built around using a specific archtype of minions (deathrattles in this case).

Yogg Saron, for better or worse, single handedly turned games on their heads and created wins out of nothing if the deck had enough spells in it. Even decks that didn't specifically build around the card could do this (such as tempo mage). Hearthstone has had plenty of random, but no the game had never had a playstyle anywhere close to what Yogg introduced, hence my labeling it as a new way to play. While the Kabalist style of play was not new (since it was an idea built off of Reno), the Buffadin minions as a whole archtype and Jade mechanic are new. Never before had you been able to progressively summon the same minion throughout the game that would get stronger with each summon, and that could be played both from minions and spells before. I don't even see how you could attempt to argue that the tri-class cards are not a new way to play. Regardless of players' personal feelings these were all new mechanics and/or playstyles that did not exist in any of the prior stages of the game. Your argument is invalid.

[Gorgodeus]

Completely and utterly wrong. The pros cooperate with them doing tournaments etc but that is it.

I suggest you all expand your forum horizons before commenting. MMO champ is the worse when it comes to this game. It's good for WoW and other off topic/video game talk but HS? lol no..just no.

Just had a funny game which happens quite often. I'm rank 5 and playing secret hunter. Nothing new to it. I have 3 hunter quest to do. Face a dragon priest who is Ropecoaching it. He's thinking, He's drawing cards, he's calculating. My turns takes 3 seconds top. Game over at turn 9. Took me like...3 hours max to hit 5 playing only secret hunter...This game is dumb lol.

No, I am not wrong at all. You see, I have well over 3000 HS tournament games to my credit, and know a few of the people on the HS balance team from this experience.

Mike Donais was hired specifically as Head Balance Designer of HS. He was a MtG designer and developer for Wizards of the Coast. Before joining Wizards of the Coast, Mike was a Magic: The Gathering tournament organizer, Pro-Tour player, and Pro-Tour judge.

Dean Ayala is HS Associate Game Designer, and is primarily focused on testing and balancing new cards in development. He first reached Legend Rank 1 in December 2013, and regularly ends each season among the top ranks of Legend. He is known as IksarHS in the competitive tournament scene. He is so consistent in Legend play that he also has a Legion NPC and Legendary ring named after him in WoW. Shadow-Sage Iskar was created in tribute to Ayala, referencing his username, 'Iksar', and on Ayala's Stone Heart, the ring's flavor text reads, "In the pits of Valhalas, Ayala the Relentless cut down foe after foe on his way to legend. Becoming more lethal as his opponents weakened, he was truly terrifying to spectate."

Ryan Masterson (RealzHS), one of the most respected pros on the scene, was hired as Associate Game Designer for HS. He was singled him out as one of the best streamers to learn from by PC Gamer.

There are others that are top players and streamers, that are part of the balance team.

The HS balance team is not a bunch of clueless individuals. They are top-notch players.

Guess you better go back to whatever forums you were blabbering about, seeing as you don't have a clue as to what is going on with the balance team.

[Raugnaut]

I've swapped to Wild from Standard with the release of Gadgetzan, and I'm all the better for it. I'd strongly suggest swapping to Wild as well, unless you really don't like decks like Patron or Secret Paladin.

[Shuji V2]

Um, nerfing cards in many cases does destroy deck archtypes if the deck is solely built around a particular card or combination of cards, I don't know why you're acting like it doesn't.

Sure it does, but allow me to explain. In the occasion that Blizzard thinks a card is too powerful, it can be nerfed at anytime. Keep in mind this is just one card for a few specific decks/archetypes or even just one type of deck that is targeted. Now essentially what they're doing with these formats is invalidating over hundreds of cards all at once to avoid having to nerf or devalue cards? How does that even make sense? In a way, it makes even more deck and archetypes invalid and makes so many people cry for replacements because otherwise they can not play there favorite anymore. For me personally, I'm quite bummed out that there is no type of mech deck available anymore to any class at all, so it even makes whole tribes unplayable.

But my point is, you're saying you want them to stick to different formats and be unable to play such iconic cards as emperor or loatheb rather then them nerfing loatheb to make him increase spell cost to 4 more for example? It still makes him playable. Even if he would be severely nerfed we would still only lose one card opposed to such a crapload of cards.

Your statement about Blizzard reprinting cards that have been rotated out isn't completely true either. Key staples such as Loatheb, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom, Shielded Minibot, Muster for Battle, etc have all not seen standard replacements. I don't see where your complaint is coming from in all honesty.

There is this rat minion with a battlecry instead of deathrattle who summons a random opponents minion in his hand, much like the deathlord. Then there is this minion which restores health for one mana which seems to be a combination of zombie chow and the funnel cake guy. I'm saying one way or another with some different stats and art we get the same as what has been rotated out. Doesn't have to be an exact copy of a minion, but something Blizzard thought would be better instead of the old version. The rat guy and one mana heal minion could be considered what Blizzard thinks is a more balanced version of zombie chow and deathlord. Then why not just nerf those cards to adjusts Blizzards vision about it and actually free up two slots for totally new cards to design? Can you see my point? Sorry for being so vague about minion names, but I'm not into HS as much as I used to be anymore mainly because of the things I've discussed here and don't like where the game is headed, so hoped it made sense.

And yeah, let's not discuss what we find a fun or interesting meta or not as that is totally up to ones taste and preferences. But thanks for sharing your opinion with us!

[Nikkaszal]

Freeze mage has been a consistent deck since beta. Just sigh.

Lol, sure, at the time where murloc warlock was considered the most cancerous aggro deck around, control warriors were nigh-unbeatable and people bitched about Mind Control being an OP card. Yeah, in a time like that, you CAN get away with your win condition being Alex followed up with two turns of spells to the face. Or one, if you got lucky and they couldn't block or remove Alex. And this was because the game at the time was muuuuuch, much slower with very little worthwhile healing cards printed... never mind Reno, who would have just laughed at old Freeze mage.

These days, Freeze Mage ONLY exists because it can burst 30-0 in one turn. It MUST have Thaurissan for redux. It MUST have Torches for early removal, because Frostbolt is their win-condition finisher.

[HisDudeness]

Lol, sure, at the time where murloc warlock was considered the most cancerous aggro deck around, control warriors were nigh-unbeatable and people bitched about Mind Control being an OP card. Yeah, in a time like that, you CAN get away with your win condition being Alex followed up with two turns of spells to the face. Or one, if you got lucky and they couldn't block or remove Alex. And this was because the game at the time was muuuuuch, much slower with very little worthwhile healing cards printed... never mind Reno, who would have just laughed at old Freeze mage.

These days, Freeze Mage ONLY exists because it can burst 30-0 in one turn. It MUST have Thaurissan for redux. It MUST have Torches for early removal, because Frostbolt is their win-condition finisher.

You done smoked yourself retarded. I'm talking open beta clear up until the first expansion. I played it to legend. I've taken a non meta deck to legend every expansion. I know this game.


@Gorgodeus, If I'm wrong, they are doing a very shitty job.


@Pantalaimon I'm not reading that entire thing. This game isn't that complicated. I did scan it and you brought up Yu-gi-oh. This is my exact point. That's an old game. So is Magic. This game is digital, Rather new and should be learning from other games mistakes instead of repeating them. You guys are...sigh...idiots.

Infracted.
-Colmadero

[Deleted]

I've swapped to Wild from Standard with the release of Gadgetzan, and I'm all the better for it. I'd strongly suggest swapping to Wild as well, unless you really don't like decks like Patron or Secret Paladin.

patron seen exactly 0 of those sincs i swapped to wild few weeks before khara. and secret pally ive seen once.

[Pantalaimon]

patron seen exactly 0 of those sincs i swapped to wild few weeks before khara. and secret pally ive seen once.

Haven't seen patron either, but I see christmas tree pally quite frequently.

At least in the lower ranks it pretty much consists of mech mage, christmas tree & secret pally, midrange shaman, reno & zoo lock, dragon priest, and pirate warrior.

[Deleted]

Haven't seen patron either, but I see christmas tree pally quite frequently.

At least in the lower ranks it pretty much consists of mech mage, christmas tree & secret pally, midrange shaman, reno & zoo lock, dragon priest, and pirate warrior.

pirate warr T-T that one hell of a anoying deck to play against with my n'zoth deck if i dont have very good hand im pretty much dead by like turn 5 or 6.
Also priests who keep stealing my good stuff T-T

[Kronik85]

There is this rat minion with a battlecry instead of deathrattle who summons a random opponents minion in his hand, much like the deathlord. Then there is this minion which restores health for one mana which seems to be a combination of zombie chow and the funnel cake guy. I'm saying one way or another with some different stats and art we get the same as what has been rotated out. Doesn't have to be an exact copy of a minion, but something Blizzard thought would be better instead of the old version. The rat guy and one mana heal minion could be considered what Blizzard thinks is a more balanced version of zombie chow and deathlord. Then why not just nerf those cards to adjusts Blizzards vision about it and actually free up two slots for totally new cards to design? Can you see my point? Sorry for being so vague about minion names, but I'm not into HS as much as I used to be anymore mainly because of the things I've discussed here and don't like where the game is headed, so hoped it made sense.

And yeah, let's not discuss what we find a fun or interesting meta or not as that is totally up to ones taste and preferences. But thanks for sharing your opinion with us!

Just to discuss Dirty Rat specifically, it's absolutely nothing like Deathlord at all. Changing the card from a Deathrattle which pulls a card from an opponents deck to a Battlecry which pulls a minion from the hand has a radical effect on it's actual usage. Dirty Rat is much more effective as an anti-combo card than it is an anti-aggro card. Dirty Rat is probably one of the most skill intensive cards in Hearthstone, pulling a win condition such as Kazakus, Reno or Leeroy can easily win you the game and following an opponents mulligan and behaviour closely will give you the hints you need to work whether to play the Rat or not.

Same for Mistress of Mixtures, she heals you and your opponent which means you very rarely want her as a turn 1 play because you won't cash in on the heal.

So even in a card which on first glance may look like a reprint, one simple change wording change can flip a cards actual value on it's head.

[Taalyn]

The community wouldn't balance anything. They'd simply kill what they don't like instead of changing it to be consistent without being overpowered; the community wouldn't even try to balance things like aggro.

While I don't know the specifics I do know that some of the prominent HS players/streamers were in invited to Blizzard HQ to discuss the game pre-wild/standard and we're asked what changes they would make. The result of that meeting was Wild and Standard. While it's not balancing, Blizzard has asked the HS community about ideas for the game.

[Deztru]

I'd love for the classic cards to be buffed, they're supposed to be for the new players but they suck so much ass it's near impossible to play with them.

[Krazzorx]

Here's another way of asking it: what is so special about Ysera that she should not be rotated out but Brann should?

[Pantalaimon]

Here's another way of asking it: what is so special about Ysera that she should not be rotated out but Brann should?

Probably because Ysera is more of a niche situational card for late game control, and thus wouldn't be troublesome in future metas nearly as much as Brann could. Brann on the other hand is mana efficient and does well in even more control decks than Ysera, as well as some combo decks.

Now I'm not saying that every powerful card in classic is a slow clunky card, some may be on the level of usefulness as Brann for their own respective decks, but Blizzard generally doesn't seem to want too many cards on the effective level of Brann to remain in the meta indefinitely, especially if the card is so good that is discourages them from creating a card that buffs or synergizes well with that card in the future. In other words, I feel they want cards that are good, but not extremely flexible left in the meta & those that are both powerful and flexible to eventually rotate out.

For example, say Blizzard wanted to buff battlecry effects in a different manner than how Brann buffs them. It would be harder to make battlecry effects stay balanced if they kept both Brann & whatever the other good battlecry buffer could be. Going back to your Ysera example, it wouldn't be that much of a concern to keep something like Ysera, Deathwing, or Cairne around in standard since comparatively fewer decks would be cramming such high cost cards in their deck. As a result, Blizzard could easily add something to buff control by adding a new high cost card since even the best control decks can only fit so many in the deck.

[Mahourai]

The core set needs to rotate cards in and out, most likely. That is, if there should even be a core set, which should also be examined. Imagine if Magic had kept Alpha/Beta legal in Standard forever.

[FobManX]

I don't know about rotating out base cards but I do think some of them should be nerfed. Here are some I came up with:

Doomsayer-Bring it down to 0/5. It would still be used in control decks to stem early aggro but it wouldn't be so hard to kill.

Water Elemental-Nerf to 3/5. Still a good card but the difference between 5 and 6 HP is actually pretty huge. A 3/5 for 4 mana that freezes is still quite good.

Ice Block-Change it from a secret to a normal spell. When you cast it, it makes you immune until the start of your next turn. This way you can't just use it early in the game and have a free extra life, you actually have to be kinda tactical with it.

Preparation-Make it so it can't bring the cost of a spell to less then 1. Allowing 0 mana spells is just broken.

Innervate-Replenishes two mana instead of giving you two extra. So you could still for example on turn 4 play a 4 drop then Innervate out a 2 drop, but you wouldn't be able to play a 6 drop on turn 4. Cheating the curve is just way too powerful.

[Kralljin]

Doomsayer-Bring it down to 0/5. It would still be used in control decks to stem early aggro but it wouldn't be so hard to kill.

Strongly against it.

Doomsayer is currently one of the few things that a control deck can tech to counter aggro.

If you're lucky as aggro deck, you can kill an on curve Doomsayer, despite having 7 health.

Doomsayer doesn't punish Midrange decks, only aggro and they really don't need any help currently.

Ice Block-Change it from a secret to a normal spell. When you cast it, it makes you immune until the start of your next turn. This way you can't just use it early in the game and have a free extra life, you actually have to be kinda tactical with it.

Also dislike that.

While it would help to punish aggro, it would be extremely strong due mage very often just needing one extra turn to kill the enemy with just spells.

You couldn't run any tech choice against this Ice block while being a essential part of any non tempo Mage deck.

Ice block as it is fine, it's a very potent effect that allows the mage to squeeze in an extra turn, if you lose too often against it=> Flare (lol Hunter) or Eater of Secrets.

[Pantalaimon]

Ice block as it is fine, it's a very potent effect that allows the mage to squeeze in an extra turn, if you lose too often against it=> Flare (lol Hunter) or Eater of Secrets.

People don't like tech apparently. They want to brainlessly be able to construct a deck without having to respond to the meta & without having to lower their win ratios against anything else by including tech.

[NED funded]

If I were Blizzard I would do away with a lot of the classic cards and add anti-aggro tools to it and generally speaking tech choices. IMHO Reno Jackson would be part of that core set.