Trump Pulls The US out of TPP. Hurray!!!

[Deleted]

The full text has been available online for months. If you don't know what's in it, that's entirely your own fault.

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.”

That aside, I don't really care about TTP. I just tried to clarify a point that has been misunderstood so far in this thread. My opinion doesn't count here. I care more about TTIP, and there are very good reasons aside its secretive negotiations for being against it. But I feel like that's not the point anymore.

[Wyrt]

Globalization will happen with or without the US. If we're sitting at the table at least we can use our considerable weight to make the market more favorable to us.

Isolationism is a dumb policy.

Something something America first. Something something fuck coastal states that rely on trade for their economy.

[kail]

Globalization will happen with or without the US. If we're sitting at the table at least we can use our considerable weight to make the market more favorable to us.

Isolationism is a dumb policy.

Could not be any simpler than this. We are dependent of others.

[Wells]

Could not be any simpler than this. We are dependent of others.

100% going to end up with China turning around and forming multi-party trade deals without us to their advantage.

[serenka]

So not anywhere actually important, then?

never said it was....

[Wells]

This is what happens when you elect a glorified life style coach thinking he'll be good on international trade policy.

[CostinR]

https://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/text

among a million other links available 30 seconds into a google search.

Where was this on a US government website? Why was this NEVER discussed in a public forum by the media? Why was there no debate in Congress for the Public?

It's nice for New Zeeland to share this information and have a public debate but that never happened in the US, not a real public debate anyway.

[Wells]

Where was this on a US government website? Why was this NEVER discussed in a public forum by the media? Why was there no debate in Congress for the Public?

You're moving goal posts.

It's nice for New Zeeland to share this information and have a public debate but that never happened in the US, not a real public debate anyway.

This is just one of many other places on line you can find it. I linked this one because I liked their organization.

[Deleted]

I feel like you're missing the point.

I could say exactly the same.

Is your whole point really that a majority of people is at fault for being completely incompetent in having a qualified political opinion and voting correctly? Since I dislike Trump, I am inclined to agree with you, but seriously... if something like this happens, the problem lies deeper than people being morons.

It's not just TTP, it's rarely about "the cause" anymore, people seem to disagree with the implementation of things. Yes, many people are stupid, but what can you do. You need to educate the stupid, and if politics fails to do that, you can't just say "well it's all here in 3000 pages black and white, read it or stfu" AFTER all the decisions have been made. If you do that you get what you have now. A country full of uneducated people who feel they don't understand what their government is doing anymore and vote right wing.

I'm from Germany, we've done this shit some time ago.

Let's leave it at that.

[Wyrt]

100% going to end up with China turning around and forming multi-party trade deals without us to their advantage.

They already are. They've started building a new Atlantic-Pacific canal in Nicaragua to bypass Panama. They're recently made a defensive alliance with Mexico and Syria.

China isn't sitting around and they'll pounce on the chance to open a trade partnership with Chile at the very least. All that copper.

[Jeezy911]

Wait there are actually people who like the idea of TPP, or is it just because Trump signed it?

[Wells]

Wait there are actually people who like the idea of TPP, or is it just because Trump signed it?

I neither like nor dislike TPP. International trade deals and globalization are simply realities. You will be effected by them, so all you can choose is whether you'll take part in crafting them or not.

[Fugus]

Completely off topic but is anyone else having issues where the site keeps repeatedly logging them out?

[CostinR]

You're moving goal posts.

This is just one of many other places on line you can find it. I linked this one because I liked their organization.

I said we don't know because it was never mentioned to us by the media organizations, that there was no public debate so that public could engage in. That's democracy and you've had very damned little of it under Obama, Bush and Clinton. Those 3 did whatever the hell they wanted without the public debate and public engagement.

[Wells]

I said we don't know because it was never mentioned to us by the media organizations, that there was no public debate so that public could engage in. That's democracy and you've had very damned little of it under Obama, Bush and Clinton. Those 3 did whatever the hell they wanted without the public debate and public engagement.

You're making an argument for your own incompetence here. The information has been easily and readily available to the public for nearly a year.

[Fugus]

No, and I don't even tell it to remember me.

Weird, it keeps wanting to boot me and make me relog about every 5 minutes even if I am actively using it. I can type a response hit send, have it go through and then click to the main menu and it log me out within that 20 second window at times.

Can log back in just fine, but still keeps booting me.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I have no problem condemning at least a significant portion of the electorate as generally unfit to vote due to their own lack of effort.

If people have the source text available and don't read it, then any "education" is meaningless. They're just puppets to be swayed by people in pursuit of their own agendas. How do you know if what I'm saying is true or not? You'll believe me or not believe me based on your own feelings and preconceptions. I don't expect them to have an expert level understanding of what they read, but they can combine the text with further inquiry and a bit of expert opinion to come up with their own opinion, rather than what we have now, which is basically, "I read this article and it said a lot of scary things, so I oppose it."

Regardless, the point was that to say "We don't know what's in it," when they've had months of opportunity to figure it out isn't a criticism of anyone but themselves.

I do get your point, trust me.

What's really astonishing to me as a non-American is that the Americans themselves kill TTP and possibly TTIP.

When you live in Germany for example, over the last couple of years you got the impression that everything about TTIP would lead to a trade dictatorship under rule of the US. The TTIP courts would soften up consumer protection in the respective partner countries eventually, and American goods of allegedly lower quality would ruin the local economy. I'm saying this just so you see how fear works, I'm not claiming this is the truth.

If that were true, the US would be the one and only beneficiary of this. But you still hate it.

That's the mad thing about it, nobody seem to like it, because nobody trusts it. It's not about facts anymore, it's far too late for that. And you've elected the president for it.

[Torto]

Trump shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The trade partnership between the US and Australia is mutually beneficial, if he is going to withdraw from it he should replace it with something else and keep it between certain countries like Australia and Japan

[Thepersona]

They already are. They've started building a new Atlantic-Pacific canal in Nicaragua to bypass Panama. They're recently made a defensive alliance with Mexico and Syria.

China isn't sitting around and they'll pounce on the chance to open a trade partnership with Chile at the very least. All that copper.

Not only cooper, we in chile have one of the biggest reserves in lithium in the planet, you know, the stuff that is done to make batteries
China is foaming in their collective mouths for the chance to exploit the US self inflicted wounds

[CostinR]

You're making an argument for your own incompetence here. The information has been easily and readily available to the public for nearly a year.

I'm making a case for public debate, which never occurred for TPP and it was rejected. Maybe because I come from a country where we still have that unlike yours where congress under Bush and Clinton was effectively a rubber stamp from the executive office.

If you really want to be that lazy and irresponsible, you deserve to be a victim of other people's political agendas.

I'm not American so accusations of being lazy at me is pathetic and idiotic when it's in your country where the was no public debate and discussion on something as big as this...or wait there was and this was the result of what America thought about TPP: Donald Trump, a guy who at every rally said TPP was going to destroy America.

No one that campaigned for Clinton tried to argue the merits of TPP, not Sanders, Obama or Biden, none of them went to rallies to try and convince people it was great.