Broken Isles Pathfinder, Part Two

[Deleted]

Oh, it's the "flying harms the game" argument again. WHAT harm? Specifics please.

Otherwise all you're saying is "You disagree with me, so you should leave". That's not actually a counter argument to anything.

Harms immersion, empties the ground world, kills world pvp, makes a lot of world content trivial by allowing you to bypass most of it...

like... are you serious? It's not like this shit hasn't been listed a million times already. There are your specifics. Go ahead and answer with some more "IF YOU DONT LIKE FLYING NOONE IS FORCING YOU TO".

There's no point in listing this because you people just ignore it and keep shouting that you need flying, although I've never really heard a convincing reason FOR flying ever. (not that there is not a good one here and there, but they never outweigh the harm flying does to the game in terms of gameplay)

[Granyala]

Harms immersion, empties the ground world, kills world pvp, makes a lot of world content trivial by allowing you to bypass most of it...

PvP I grant you, the rest is BULLCRAP and you know it.
Immersion is completely subjective, a gryphon that cannot fly "beacuse reasons" while other gryphons carry me and fly perfectly fine certainly breaks my immersion.

I never understood the "empties the ground" as I saw tons of players (often too much so) during the TBC -> MoP times.
Flight or no flight: people still need to land to do anything, at which point you will meet them when you do similar / the same quests.

Bypassing stuff is completely irrelevant, if you reward flight AFTER the content has been experienced on the ground.

[Kazgrel]

Maybe because players got lazy and expected to be able to skip everything?

TIL people have been lazy and skipped everything in WoW for 8 years.

[Deleted]

I don't think you can mount in the BRH arena either, so that would just leave the murloc one where people could abuse flying.

BRH is in Valshara, you can mount both in murloc and in Bareback brawl, even though I have a hard time figuring out why you would accidentally run through that part of Stormheim as well. You are correct that murloc feedom is the only one in which you can intercept and kill passerbys.

[SirCowdog]

Gliding, as opposed to flying actively uses the terrain. You need to find a high spot and then hop into the right direction and be conscious about where you land, where and how you chose your path, given a limited window of gliding.
All instead of pressing space bar and being in GM - Godlike flight mode.

Don't get me wrong, I love my flight, but we must be rational about this: flight clashes with WoWs basic design.
I agree that the world content is weak to begin with.

Let's clarify: Gliding uses terrain which was designed to ignore that flight exists. There's a difference. Gliding can also sometimes be used in areas where flying can not, such as indoors.

But I don't disagree that the current mechanics of flying are too powerful. Unlimited movement on all axis, with no effect of gravity, acceleration, or momentum at two to three times the speed of a ground mount needs to change. There are a few ways to address that. Either turn flying mounts into vehicles that obey different rules of movement, or change the available speed of a flying mount based on the environment.

City of Heroes(a game with flying) made it so that flying worked differently in and out of combat. While in combat flight took more energy to maintain, was slower, and your accuracy took a hit. While out of combat it was less costly, and faster. CoH also had sniper and flying enemies that would harass you if you entered their territory. Terrain gained relevance because it was often necessary to "fly below the radar" and avoid these mobs. But that also brought you closer to the ground mobs which could potentiall grab or knock you out of the air. IIRC the snipers would not target non-flying players.

Blizzard could implement something like this. Why don't they? Because it's simpler and easier to apply the same, tired, old, boring ground formula to everything. It's simpler to lock flight behind a wall of tasks and time that makes flight have zero impact on the content than it is to design a world that actually takes into account players moving through the air.

IMHO it's also incredibly immersion breaking. We're constantly reminded that we're in a world of high fantasy. There's airships, spaceships, floating cities, dragons, griffons, demon bats, etc etc etc ad infinitum. And yet we somehow can't manage to make our own badass dragons summon more than a pitiful hop. Flight paths don't even begin to address this. They're AFK movement. They're guilty of everything that people claim our personal flying mounts supposedly do. But somehow it's ok because they're approved by Blizzard. It's revolting and disappointing.

[LaserChild9]

And it is ignorant to think that experience is going to be good for everyone.

Is it really so bad that the devs want you to see what they made? They make this game under the assumption that you actually want to play it, so they try to make cool areas and you think its wrong that they want you to spend some time there?

You keep saying it's about me and I'm self centered. I'm not the only person here who likes\wants flying. I'm not even a tiny minority. As I said early, last poll I saw was 60-40 against\for, could be a even 50-50. And again, If you hate flying, you don't have to fly EVER. You can have all the ground experience all you want. You and your group want everyone to be stuck on the ground, because it's what YOU like. Yet, I'm the self centered one?

But you are right, The people or person that got the final say, is anti-flying, so the Anti-flying group wins for now.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think this "Anti-Flying" group got the last say?

We're supposed to value Blizzard design simply because they spent time building it? I spend time taking a crap every day, does that mean everyone should value what's in the toilet?

Are you selling your shit? If not then your point is irrelevant. As I said above, Blizzard assume you are paying to play the game, so why is it so hard to think they might want you to see it?

Yes it matters! For nearly a decade players had the option to CHOOSE whether to fly or not. They got to determine for themselves how THEY want to enjoy the game. Now they don't have that choice. They are literally being told that the grounded experience is superior, and having their own opinions and determinations completely ignored.

If it matters so much, why aren't you able to fly in legion? I mean, if your personal opinion is so important surely they should be bending over backwards to accommodate you?

The irony of telling someone that they're being self-centered when simultaneously ignoring their viewpoint entirely in favor of your own is borderline hilarious. Furthermore, even if one player is able to fly, it in no way impacts players on the ground. Rewards don't go away. Enemies respawn. Quests aren't limited to who gets there first. You're literally sitting here telling people that their desire to experience the game in a certain way is invalid, even when it doesn't actually effect anyone but themselves.

Which is not even taking into consideration all the other ways to skip content that are available to players right now, in the absence of flight. You're demonizing flight, not because it's actually harmful or detrimental to the game or player experience, but because you personally don't like it.

Er... No? At no point have I said "Flying is bad", "Flying sucks", "Flying killed Grandpa", at no point have I 'demonized' flight at all. I like to fly, I think its great. What I may have 'demonized' is the whiny entitled attitude you all seem to have. It's not good enough that its coming, it's not good enough that its soon, you want it now and if you cant have it you are gonna throw all your toys out of the pram! I accept that just because I want to be able to fly does not mean I am gonna get it when I want it, no amount of bitching, moaning and crying on the forums is going to speed up the rate at which I can fly.

Do you have ANY evidence to support that people who want flying are in the minority? And if they were in the minority, how do you explain the complete 180 away from "No flying ever again" to flying being returned to the game within 2 weeks of that statement from Blizzard? Furthermore, isn't it possible that the entire No-flying fiasco is just the brainchild of a single person, or small group of people, at the top? Blizzard themselves said that both the players and the dev team was split 50/50, but they pushed it through

I don't recall a Blizzard statement where they said no more flying ever, you got a source on that one? I recall they may have said they weren't sure if it was going to be included in WoD but I don't recall them saying it was never in the game again. I don't have evidence no, but lets look at this like grown ups. First and foremost, Blizzard is not your friend, they are a company that wants your money. Why would they take away something that a huge chunk, let's not even assume it's the majority, of their player base is passionate about? What would they have to gain from it? They may even take a sub loss. So wheres the sense in this? Unless they have data that says these people that want flying NOW, are not such a large group. Even if we assume that you are Blizzards best bud, what do they have to gain from denying you flight? They would then lose friends.

And now you go on to speak for "most people", followed by dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as being both petty AND a shit-poster. Really? This is the extent of your defense of No-flying?

You don't agree that most of the wow population is happy with what they have? Can you provide proof of that? I don't need to provide proof, the numbers speak for themselves, there are millions of players but nowhere near that many complaints. So that's millions of people paying to play a game and not complain about it, one has to assume that they are sort of happy at least.

If you are so adamant that you are right, and the majority of the players agree with you, then answer me one simple question. What do Blizzard have to gain from alienating a massive chunk of their playerbase?

[SirCowdog]

Harms immersion,

False. Immersion is largely subjective. As I just said in the post above, we're in a world of high fantasy that is chocked full of flying creatures and machines. It's actually MORE immersion breaking that our dragons and griffons CAN'T fly.

empties the ground world

False. Players still have to land in order to complete content. The mounts don't make you invisible, or actually increase your TTK targets. Nor do they speed up the channel for clicking objectives in the world. Nor can you actually interact with most objectives from the back of ANY mount(ground or air).

Even if what you said was true, it's still just your personal perception, and not actual fact. You want to restrict flight so the world FEELS and APPEARS to be more full. when in reality the number of players in any given area has nothing to do with how they got there in the first place, but rather what's interesting enough to keep them there, playing.

kills world pvp,

False. World PVP was killed a long time ago by instanced PVP which has greater rewards and gives a more fair experience. Not to mention Blizzard slowly abandoning any kind of world PVP objective worth fighting over. Instant teleports to dungeons and raids from a safe non-pvp area also did more harm than flying ever could. The only thing that flying could potentially harm is your ability to corpse camp or gank someone. That barely even qualifies as world PVP.

makes a lot of world content trivial by allowing you to bypass most of it...

Content which is already trivial to begin with can not be made trivial by flight. Blizzard also gives us MANY other tools to bypass content, such as flight paths, hearthstones, portals, teleports, summons, flight master whistle, stealth, gliding, leather barding to avoid dismounts. Also is the fact that higher level gear from Mythic+ spam and raids does more to invalidate the world than flight ever could. MAYBE you'd have a point if world scaling worked off ilvl instead of stopping at 110, but it doesn't. And so you don't.

like... are you serious? It's not like this shit hasn't been listed a million times already. There are your specifics. Go ahead and answer with some more "IF YOU DONT LIKE FLYING NOONE IS FORCING YOU TO".

There's no point in listing this because you people just ignore it and keep shouting that you need flying, although I've never really heard a convincing reason FOR flying ever. (not that there is not a good one here and there, but they never outweigh the harm flying does to the game in terms of gameplay)

The point in me asking you to list these reasons was to show you how flawed they are. You're just repeating the same flawed excuses without actually giving them full consideration. And this is something that I see CONSTANTLY when talking to people who think flight is the problem. Flight is constantly held responsible for problems it doesn't actually cause.

If you don't personally like flying, and don't want to fly, then I have no arguments against that. That's your own personal choice. But that does NOT make flying objectively bad. Nor does it mean that flying is responsible for the flaws caused by other aspects of the game.

[Deleted]

PvP I grant you, the rest is BULLCRAP and you know it.

The fuck kinda sentence is that? And I know it? So you're insinuating that I'm willfully spreading bullcrap? You better watch your tone buddy.

Immersion is completely subjective

Exactly. So who are you to say that it's bullcrap when a lot of people seem to share the subjective point of view that a deserted area with 200 non-interactively flying people AFKing in the clouds is breaking their immersion? Giving us non-flying flying mounts was a pretty bad design decision, though. I get why they have done it, but I agree that it hurts immersion as well.

I never understood the "empties the ground" as I saw tons of players (often too much so) during the TBC -> MoP times.

THIS is actual bullcrap. Once people reach max level they never stop floating unless it's absolutely neccessary (entering a cave, quickly picking up an item and then re-mounting, quickly harvesting a profession node and then re-mounting).

Nobody is stupid enough to spend time on the ground when you can literally go /noclip and make sure you're where you need to be but with 0 possibility of drawing aggro and low possibility of getting killed by other players (unless they actually want to put in a lot of effort and creativity).

Flight or no flight: people still need to land to do anything, at which point you will meet them when you do similar / the same quests.

100 people scrambling on the ground and looking for stuff cannot be compared to a bunch of dudes landing on the objective, picking it up and instantly soaring back into the clouds.

It's literally like playing Half Life with noclip on. You can evade all enemies and only disable it at trigger points and then instantly go noclip again. It's cheating. Blatantly. There's no defending it. Flying allows you to bypass tons of content that you would otherwise have to fight through (on your way to your target AND on the way back out)

Bypassing stuff is completely irrelevant, if you reward flight AFTER the content has been experienced on the ground.

Which is why you're getting flying "soon" and not now. What's your problem again?

[Lei]

Just logged in to pin this here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=9#post-162

Let me try to clear things up a bit, since I realize a single achievement out of context isn't exactly informative.

Overall, this is consistent with the plans we announced last year when we added the original Draenor Pathfinder achievement in 6.2.2, and hopefully does not come as a surprise. The underlying philosophy here is: explore and master the outdoor world on the ground, in order to unlock the ability to soar above it freely. This time around, since we have our design in place from the start of the expansion, we want to give players as much advance notice as possible, and allow everyone who cares deeply about unlocking flight to understand the requirements and begin progressing towards them immediately.

I can't give a detailed estimate of exactly when the next step will unlock. We have a solid patch plan in the works, but we need to remain flexible to adapt to player needs once the expansion launches, and there's no way to even hint at a date without it sounding like a promise. That said, I can say that Part One should represent a significant majority of the total effort required to ultimately unlock flight. Patch content will see players adventuring within new parts of the Broken Isles, and there will likely be one or two additional criteria associated with that content. At that point, players will unlock the ability to fly throughout the Broken Isles.

Finally, I've seen some concern about rep "grinding" associated with this achievement. All of the referenced reputations are earned by doing level-up quests and world quests associated with those factions throughout the Broken Isles. There are no mob-grinding components to any of these reputations. Frankly, the Legion Pathfinder achievement was much easier to design than Draenor Pathfinder was, simply because we have much more outdoor world content in Legion.

Lawyer speak as it's finest.
So first it's not 1 or 2 criteria, it's 3. They forgot to mention how part one required exalted with Nightfallen, which increased the requirement quite a bit. Now they forget to mention how long will it take to reach exalted with tht faction, also they forget to mention how long the campaign is. This is just sad tbh. :/

[Queen of Hamsters]

At some point maybe they'll just remove flying completely because FP and whistle is more than enough and flying ruins the game...Ive enjoyed legion much more than I ever would have just flying around to everything. Flying ruined the game and if people quit the game because they cant fly well that's just spoiled and silly.

Oh yes, flying "ruined" the game so much that it reached 12 million people. The expansions hailed as the best, had flying.

If you're going to make a case, at least put some substance behind your tantrum rather than burping shit that's been debunked a million times already.

You say people quitting the game because they can't fly are spoiled and silly? Well, so are you and the rest of the people then that seemingly cannot enjoy the game unless they and everyone else is forced to ride on ground mounts. You say you've enjoyed Legion because you've been grounded rather than for the content you've been doing...? .. Like, if you can't enjoy the game if there's flying, why the fuck don't you just go play some game that hasn't allowed it for longer than it didn't? Jesus, the "reasoning" of some... You can stay grounded in 7.2, plenty of people will choose to be so you won't be alone. You continue having your gameplay enjoyment from riding over the same tree stump for the millionth time, others can choose to fly for whatever reason. Win win!

[SirCowdog]

Is it really so bad that the devs want you to see what they made? They make this game under the assumption that you actually want to play it, so they try to make cool areas and you think its wrong that they want you to spend some time there?

The issue here is that we've been there and done that. We've seen the way they wanted us to play, but now we're not being able to see how WE want to play. Do you not see the issue with that? This isn't some new playstyle that's untested, that is some radical change to the gameplay. Flying was in the game for MUCH longer than it wasn't.

All most of us are really asking for is the CHOICE to play the game in a way we used to have, that we KNOW we like. We, as players, didn't change. Blizzard changed the game under us.

Are you selling your shit? If not then your point is irrelevant. As I said above, Blizzard assume you are paying to play the game, so why is it so hard to think they might want you to see it?

My point was to show how silly it is to blindly accept anything that Blizzard does just because they're doing it. Not every single piece of content must be consumed and appreciated by every single player in exactly the same way.

As for seeing it? yes, I'm seeing the content. I just want to see the content from my own perspective using the playstyle that I used to have and enjoy, and without harming anyone else. I don't know why people are so against this. It doesn't actually effect you.

If it matters so much, why aren't you able to fly in legion? I mean, if your personal opinion is so important surely they should be bending over backwards to accommodate you?

They don't need to "bend over backwards" to accomodate me personally. But they do need to heed the overall voice of the community at large. Do you remember when WoD launched with no flying, and they said they'd only change it back if there was "Overwhelming feedback" to that effect? And what happened? Half the subs left and Tanaan got delayed in order to re-tool it for flying.

I'm not implying that flying was the sole reason half the subs left during WoD. But it was definitely a contributing factor. And it's VERY much a contributing factor for why we're getting flight in Legion

Er... No? At no point have I said "Flying is bad", "Flying sucks", "Flying killed Grandpa", at no point have I 'demonized' flight at all. I like to fly, I think its great. What I may have 'demonized' is the whiny entitled attitude you all seem to have. It's not good enough that its coming, it's not good enough that its soon, you want it now and if you cant have it you are gonna throw all your toys out of the pram! I accept that just because I want to be able to fly does not mean I am gonna get it when I want it, no amount of bitching, moaning and crying on the forums is going to speed up the rate at which I can fly.

It's because some of us have been fighting against this no-flying nonsense since WoD beta. We've been dealing with being called names like "whiny" and "entitled brats" simply because we're being critical and objective about the mistake of No-flying. This isn't about being entitled, or throwing a tantrum. It's about fighting for the playstyle we had for nearly a decade, and pointing out the flaws with arbitrarily removing it with little to no actual benefit to the players. It's about proving what a poor solution Pathfinder is, and suggesting better ways to accomplish the same goals without such drastic measures.

I don't recall a Blizzard statement where they said no more flying ever, you got a source on that one?

In this interview here.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/864...mo-pc-blizzard

At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in World of Warcraft is ultimately better without flying. We're not going to be reintroducing the ability to fly in Draenor, and that's kind of where we're at going forward."

Two weeks after that interview it was announced that they were actually going to have flying in Tanaan.

Why would they take away something that a huge chunk, let's not even assume it's the majority, of their player base is passionate about? What would they have to gain from it? They may even take a sub loss. So wheres the sense in this? Unless they have data that says these people that want flying NOW, are not such a large group. Even if we assume that you are Blizzards best bud, what do they have to gain from denying you flight? They would then lose friends.

That's treading into shaky territory. None of us knows how the inner working of Blizzard decisions actually get made. If I had to guess I'd say they did it because a couple of people(probably Hazzicostas and Afrasiabi) REALLY liked the idea and pitched it to the rest of the team well enough to push it through.

I think that they really, honestly thought that it was going to make the game better, despite the feedback from the players(which they admitted were split 50/50). Moving on to pure speculation, it's my personal belief that Hazzicostas and Afrasiabi have a deep-seated resentment for their no-flying plan blowing up in their faces. They didn't get to build the game they wanted to. They had to concede to the desires of the playerbase, at least a little bit, and put flying back in. That's where Pathfinder comes in. They still get to make their precious no-flying world, while still keeping the illusion that flying is relevant(which it's not).

I don't have any proof of that. I'm just going off of the way they've conducted themselves since the entire no-flying thing started.

If you are so adamant that you are right, and the majority of the players agree with you, then answer me one simple question. What do Blizzard have to gain from alienating a massive chunk of their playerbase?

I think Blizzard knows they can get away with anything short of murder and still retain a very large chunk of the playerbase. They're too invested. I mean, look at the way people keep repeating the blue responses to justify the attempt to remove flying. They're not even thinking about it at all, just regurgitating the answers almost word for word.

I think that changing the design direction of something as massive and complex as WoW doesn't happen quickly or easily. We know that Legion was designed partially at the same time as WoD. It's entirely possible that the opening areas of Legion weren't ever supposed to have flying, and Pathfinder part 1 and 2 was implemented to give them enough time to change it.

I also think that Pathfinder has a lot of people mollified because they haven't fully thought it through until now. I mean, look at all the flying threads and complaints popping up recently, now that we see that part 2 is just more of the same nonsense? If Blizzard realized their mistake early enough, and content past 7.2 actually integrates flying, then this entire argument is moot. But if they keep on with the bait and switch, and release more no-flying content after flying is unlocked? I think you'll see subs and population drop dramatically, and support for the next expansion spike even lower than Legion.

There won't be a huge outcry like in WoD. People already did that. They'll just leave for other games, or some 3rd party server.

[purebalance]

Yeah I absolutely hate this BS about no flying.

If people don't like it, then simply don't fly. I see no harm in having flying in the game. No one forces anyone to fly!

Tired bad excuse needs to stop being used as some sort of profound reason.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Tired bad excuse needs to stop being used as some sort of profound reason.

It's fact, pure and simple.
Don't like PVP? Then don't PVP
Don't like raiding? Then don't raid.
Don't like pet battles? Then don't pet battle.
Don't like riding yourself to locations? Make proper use of flightpaths.
Don't like feeling like you're not doing the travelling? Don't use flightpaths.
Don't want to fly? Don't fly. Plenty of people didn't in WoD even after Pathfinder was added.
Don't want to be grounded? Sorry, you're going to be grounded and like it. Compromise; You can fly once you've seen the content and done it 1000 times over as it pleases us.

And anti-flying fanatics still keep burping the same old tired arguments about how flying "ruins the game", "is for lazy people" and everything else over a feature that's been in the game since the very first expansion forward.

If I as a pro-flying player can choose to play without using flying mounts for various reasons, so can anti-flying people... only, they're seemingly quite weak-willed and/or in some prestige race with every other player on their server...

- "But if I stay grounded and others fly, they'll reach destinations before me!!"
- And the ones being closer to the destination will reach it before those that are further away. In other news; Water is wet.

- "But flying makes you skip content!"
- Probably on the way to content you want to get to and actually partake in. It's no bloody difference from being grounded and running through one area in order to get to the area beyond where you have shit to do for a reward you want. These days you can skip content ON THE GROUND and even without the fear of being dazed, courtesy of Stonehide Leather Barding. Guess grounded mounts need to be banned, everyone walk!

- "But flying makes you miss out on content"
- ... I don't know about you, but if I'm riding or flying by my own hand, I kinda look at the screen and see shit on the ground/around me. The only time I "miss out", would be when I'm on a flight taxi and alt-tabbing. What, your memory is so shit that areas you've gone through 100 times still surprise you every single time you get to it? What a joke...

It's been said before and will be said again; Flying is staying. The compromise is in place and sees players gaining access to freedom of flight long after the content arrives. If some people simply cannot enjoy the game as a result (pro or anti-flying), they can gtfo to games that don't allow flying/always allow it. Simple.

[iamthedevil]

I understand what you mean and I agree with the principle.

The problem is that the content, in this case, the Broken Isles, that Blizzard designed is TERRIBLE. The quests are decent but the terrain is depressingly bad. If they want us to really experience it, they should make something that is nice to experience in the first place.

Every second of travelling in Broken Isles is a nightmare. A gazillion mobs, dazed 24/7 and more hills, valleys, roots, rocks, pitfalls, mountains etc than you could even describe.

If the zones are nice, flying isn't needed.
If the zones are awful, we need flying ASAP! Like now!

The depth of the terrain is one of my favorite aspects of the Broken Isles. Not being a flat wasteland makes it feel so much more alive to me. The expansion, and past ones, have been designed with ground mounts in mind. I completely agree with Blizzard. Experience it the way it was meant to be played first and then get flying down the road. Most likely 7.3 will be grounded as well, either permanently like TI or gated like Tanaan. Being able to fly just completely voids so much of the game.

Also, the don't fly if you don't like it idea sounds like it would make sense, but who wouldn't want a fair playing ground when it comes to mob access/tags and harvesting, etc? No one. It would become a "I'm forced to fly to play the game" ordeal which would just end in constant backlash.

- - - Updated - - -

It's fact, pure and simple.
Don't like PVP? Then don't PVP
Don't like raiding? Then don't raid.
Don't like pet battles? Then don't pet battle.
Don't like riding yourself to locations? Make proper use of flightpaths.
Don't like feeling like you're not doing the travelling? Don't use flightpaths.
Don't want to fly? Don't fly. Plenty of people didn't in WoD even after Pathfinder was added.
Don't want to be grounded? Sorry, you're going to be grounded and like it. Compromise; You can fly once you've seen the content and done it 1000 times over as it pleases us.

And anti-flying fanatics still keep burping the same old tired arguments about how flying "ruins the game", "is for lazy people" and everything else over a feature that's been in the game since the very first expansion forward.

If I as a pro-flying player can choose to play without using flying mounts for various reasons, so can anti-flying people... only, they're seemingly quite weak-willed and/or in some prestige race with every other player on their server...

It's been said before and will be said again; Flying is staying. The compromise is in place and sees players gaining access to freedom of flight long after the content arrives. If some people simply cannot enjoy the game as a result (pro or anti-flying), they can gtfo to games that don't allow flying/always allow it. Simple.

I don't know anybody that wants flying removed. Most people just have the ability to understand Blizzard's reasoning for gated flying.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Never understood why people whine and cry so much about things they can do something about.
Don't like getting dazed / dismounted... craft / buy a barding.

Don't like flying, don't fly.

Don't like waiting to fly, quit and come back when flying is introduced.

The entitlement issues some people have today is mind-numbing.

Amen.
It's the same mentality seen in other areas. "I don't like PVP, why is it still in the game and affecting it???". "I don't like pet battles, why are they in the game and resources wasted on them???". "I don't like raiding, why do people do that shit??"...

[SirCowdog]

The depth of the terrain is one of my favorite aspects of the Broken Isles. Not being a flat wasteland makes it feel so much more alive to me. The expansion, and past ones, have been designed with ground mounts in mind. I completely agree with Blizzard. Experience it the way it was meant to be played first and then get flying down the road. Most likely 7.3 will be grounded as well, either permanently like TI or gated like Tanaan. Being able to fly just completely voids so much of the game.

Being able to feel powerful and free as I fly over the terrain is one of my favorite aspects of previous expansions. Is your enjoyment more valid than my enjoyment? Wouldn't it be better if we both got what we wanted, and were able to choose to do so?

As for "the way it was meant to be played", sorry. We've seen it in WoD. We've seen it in Legion so far, and didn't like it. At some point people need to realize that taking away all options doesn't make the remaining option good.

Also, the don't fly if you don't like it idea sounds like it would make sense, but who wouldn't want a fair playing ground when it comes to mob access/tags and harvesting, etc? No one. It would become a "I'm forced to fly to play the game" ordeal which would just end in constant backlash.

Stop. False. Wrong. Gathering nodes are personal. Were you not aware of this? Mob tagging is now better than it's ever been, and respawns have been a thing since the game launched. Monsters don't disappear forever just because someone else got there first. And people can get there first even without a flying mount. You're fixating on blaming flight for problems it doesn't cause.

Even if everything you said was true(which it's not), you'd still have the choice to keep playing grounded, even if it was at a disadvantage. Flying players still do not have that choice, and so it would be a better situation than where we're at right now.

I don't know anybody that wants flying removed. Most people just have the ability to understand Blizzard's reasoning for gated flying.

Most people haven't bothered to actually scrutinize Blizzard's reasoning. Otherwise they'd see the massive, gaping holes in it.

[Sansnom]

All I see is a bunch of babies that saying that life is too hard and why can't I have my convenience back.....

Yeah. Equating having flying to complaining about life is too hard. Really.

What I see is some people seems to think having no flying is better for the game, went that opinion is highly subjective.

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Tired bad excuse needs to stop being used as some sort of profound reason.

Not worse than the flying ruins the game reasoning.

[Hctaz]

Inconvenient =/= hard.

Gamers, especially in the MMO genre really need to get over that.

It does though. A game that is time-consuming is difficult to complete. The difficulty is just placed differently. Think of Dark Souls vs Skyrim. Skyrim takes up your time with it's huge world, sprawling dungeons, side quests, and long main story. I think the main story alone took me around 30 hours to complete. Dark Souls, on the other hand, is not as big or crazy. There's not even really much of a story of scenery but the fights are HARD. You are intended to die again and again and again whereas I don't think I ever had that problem once in Skyrim.

Different things feels good to different people. Some people want to be rewarded with skill. They don't care if they replay the same 8 hours worth of content because they keep dying over and over and over again. The same boss can take 8 hours to complete alone but they enjoy this sort of difficulty. Other people want an easy game that entertains them for hours and hours with more things to do which includes artificial gating via a large world. WoW has both of these. Mythic raids are the same 3 hours of content that takes guilds months to finish. Questing and the like is gated through being forced to walk and certain grinds like reputation.

[Mad_Murdock]

Why do you think that is? Why do you think this "Anti-Flying" group got the last say?

Because we' re not flying now. We flew at max level in BC, Wrath, flying day 1 on Cata, nerfed back to max level in MOP and then BAM! No flying for the first year+ and that was only after an uproar when Ion said no flying ever. Then repeated again in Legion. I'd call that a win for the anti-flying group. The Xpac will be pretty close, if not, a year old by the time flying is actually achievable and around then, the subs will be back to their usual low with only the hardcore fans still playing.

I don't know anybody that wants flying removed. Most people just have the ability to understand Blizzard's reasoning for gated flying.

Read through this thread again. There are folks that want it removed forever. Did you forget when Blizzard announced they never planned to release flying? Clearly some at Blizzard want it removed. I've heard their reasoning and I stuggle with it. TBC\Wrath are consider by most the heyday of WoW and it had flying. Now we can't have flying because people skip boring content.

[Hctaz]

Just logged in to pin this here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=9#post-162

Let me try to clear things up a bit, since I realize a single achievement out of context isn't exactly informative.

Overall, this is consistent with the plans we announced last year when we added the original Draenor Pathfinder achievement in 6.2.2, and hopefully does not come as a surprise. The underlying philosophy here is: explore and master the outdoor world on the ground, in order to unlock the ability to soar above it freely. This time around, since we have our design in place from the start of the expansion, we want to give players as much advance notice as possible, and allow everyone who cares deeply about unlocking flight to understand the requirements and begin progressing towards them immediately.

I can't give a detailed estimate of exactly when the next step will unlock. We have a solid patch plan in the works, but we need to remain flexible to adapt to player needs once the expansion launches, and there's no way to even hint at a date without it sounding like a promise. That said, I can say that Part One should represent a significant majority of the total effort required to ultimately unlock flight. Patch content will see players adventuring within new parts of the Broken Isles, and there will likely be one or two additional criteria associated with that content. At that point, players will unlock the ability to fly throughout the Broken Isles.

Finally, I've seen some concern about rep "grinding" associated with this achievement. All of the referenced reputations are earned by doing level-up quests and world quests associated with those factions throughout the Broken Isles. There are no mob-grinding components to any of these reputations. Frankly, the Legion Pathfinder achievement was much easier to design than Draenor Pathfinder was, simply because we have much more outdoor world content in Legion.

Lawyer speak as it's finest.
So first it's not 1 or 2 criteria, it's 3. They forgot to mention how part one required exalted with Nightfallen, which increased the requirement quite a bit. Now they forget to mention how long will it take to reach exalted with tht faction, also they forget to mention how long the campaign is. This is just sad tbh. :/

How is it 3 criteria? It looks like it says part two is finish the campaign and reach exalted. Looks like 2 things to me. Of course part 1 takes long. It's the BULK of the work. It has you running around like everywhere to complete. You had to reach revered with every faction, finish the 7.0 Suramar campaign which includes getting exalted with the faction, finish every zone's main quest line, explore every zone, finish the class campaign, and complete 100 world quests. That's a lot more than what 7.2 is bringing. This is just the Suramar portion but I bet you it's not nearly as long or as drawn out as reaching exalted with the Nightfallen.