"we should give the unborn the chance to live"

[pateuvasiliu]

Neither is a fertilized egg or even a few weeks of development, when it's just a mass of cells like a wart.

By the standard definition, it is.

[CrypticSoul]

Neither is a fertilized egg or even a few weeks of development, when it's just a mass of cells like a wart.

Technically, you're a mass of cells. But yes, it is an organism.

[Belisarius565]

Pretty much this. I really don't understand why people need to push their beliefs onto other people.

Do whatever you want to yourself, there are still laws in place forbidding certain self actions, which that argument would not work in a court of law or anywhere else. Something growing inside of a person as in a zygote, fetus, baby, is another human being.

[schwarzkopf]

Skin isn't an organism.

Well, neither is a fertilised egg - if you want to start pulling at the strings of your argument.

What is the ultimate thing that is created by the act of fertilisation ?

Well - a corpse I suppose. Or maybe a skeleton, or maybe nothing.

The fact that for some period the thing that is created is a human, and before and after it is not is the critical fact here.

Now, if we start allowing alternative facts into the argument - then I say that a man and a woman create raspberry pie when they have sex.

[CrypticSoul]

Now, if we start allowing alternative facts into the argument - then I say that a man and a woman create raspberry pie when they have sex.

"Everything I don't agree with is an alternative fact."

[Endus]

I'm not religious.

Hence "pseudo-religious".

And there's no ''belief'' here. Personhood is crap invented because the dudes at the top of the country realised a lot of unwanted kids were making the economy plummet.

This is just factually wrong. Personhood as a legal concept goes back centuries. Most likely, eons. It vastly predates the existence of the United States, or even the American colonies.

Your idea that a fetus should be granted personhood at conception is based on faith, not facts. That's the "pseudo-religious" aspect. You attack women's human rights directly, and have no identifiable, objective grounds for doing so.

[schwarzkopf]

By the standard definition, it is.

Actually - no. Standard definition requires it to be independent, at the start the egg is literally just a wart on the mother's endometrium (within 5 days or so).

[Wiyld]

Which is why men should only have sex with women who are willing to take these chances and bear his children.

we already HAVE that..... its called a marriage!!!

Its a monogamous pairing for the implicit purpose of reproduction in a controlled and committed way. Civilization signed a social contract that put super loose rules on the issue in order to order our society in such a way to facilitate progress. There are a million variances in how we all do marriage but in the end it usually ends up with a couple/few people living together long term and producing/raising the next generation.

So...they participate in this social construct to basically sign that contract you want. But your contract doesn't think big enough. It is supposed to be a contract to make decisions together...whatever they are. You get married, you rely on the guarantee that comes with that contract, a guarantee that the other party will discuss things like 'hey if we screw constantly, you wanna keep the inevitable kid'?

A marriage is a big pain in the ass...so we only make the promise of that level of commitment to 1 other person..its that big of a commitment. It isn't something you just do every time you wanna casual boof your neighbor. So yeah no...a contract isn't going to work.. A silly paper signed in the heat of the moment doesn't last for 18 years of a kids life. It's kind of a 'have your cake and eat it too' situation. We want to be uncommitted and free to screw whomever, but we want security for our own personal vision of how a pregnancy will be handled. The kind of security that can only come from like the biggest most important social contract we have.

[Belisarius565]

Women who do not wish to bear children will abort in anyway they can if they become pregnant, including suicide.

What life are you protecting by outlawing abortion? None.

If your wish is really to protect all life, you would encourage men to only have sex with women who are willing to bear their children.

Women murdering their children, when its legal or not is still preventing another human being from living his or her own life.

[schwarzkopf]

"Everything I don't agree with is an alternative fact."

Actually - everything that isn't a fact you mean. Agree infers some kind of opinion is involved.

If you want my opinion - then I don't thing humans exist at all any more, the events of the last few decades have left this world devoid of humanity.

But back to facts.... life is a continuum, and a fertilised egg is NOT a human, a corpse is also NOT a human, for some span in there - a human temporarily exists.

[Total Crica]

we already HAVE that..... its called a marriage!!!

No, marriage is not only for people who wish to bear children.

My husband and I have been married for over 10 years now and neither of us wish to have children.

[pateuvasiliu]

You attack women's human rights directly, and have no identifiable, objective grounds for doing so.

First of all, cut the feminist bullshit. If I wanted that I'd post in Offtop- oh.

I'm not against abortion being legal, so I'm not attacking anyone's rights.

Personhood as a legal concept goes back centuries

Why by all means, please give me an example of a society in which, centuries ago, murder was defined as killing a person and as such killing a pregnant woman was equal to killing any other human and abortion was legal.

[Wiyld]

I don't even care about "women's right to their body" (lol who does, really?), but saying that "the unborn deserve the chance to live" can basically be extended to cover stuff like wanting to have a baby with someone that doesn't even want to have sex with you.

"Don't fancy a fuck? Well too bad girl, our unborn children deserve to be sexed into existence. Now spread 'em!"

In both cases the child doesn' t even exist yet, so I see no difference.

Wait.. is that like precrime?

[Total Crica]

Women murdering their children, when its legal or not is still preventing another human being from living his or her own life.

So is suicide when she is prevented from aborting. You prevent no one from dying when you ban abortion.

[Endus]

Women murdering their children, when its legal or not is still preventing another human being from living his or her own life.

The problem with your argument is that it's a definitive fact that a fetus is not a "human being". Which means terms like "murder" are nonsensical. Is every miscarriage a homicide that deserves criminal investigation? Same argument that you're making.

[pateuvasiliu]

Well, neither is a fertilised egg

A fertilised egg is an organism. It's a new life form.

Your skin has the same DNA as yours, a fertilised egg is unique. Also the egg is going to become a baby. Your skinn, not so much.

[schwarzkopf]

Women murdering their children, when its legal or not is still preventing another human being from living his or her own life.

Well, if we keep to facts - that is demonstrably NOT the case if she aborts at 5 days, is probably the case if she aborts the day before birth - and a whole can of who the fuck knows in between. That's why the law generally defines a point at which it is 'human', in Australia that's the last 2-3 months. That definition is arbitrary, but the law needs to draw lines.

[pateuvasiliu]

The problem with your argument is that it's a definitive fact that a fetus is not a "human being". Which means terms like "murder" are nonsensical. Is every miscarriage a homicide that deserves criminal investigation? Same argument that you're making.

Modern humans (Homo sapiens, primarily ssp. Homo sapiens sapiens) are the only extant members of Hominina tribe (or human tribe), a branch of the tribe Hominini belonging to the family of great apes. They are characterized by erect posture and bipedal locomotion; manual dexterity and increased tool use, compared to other animals; and a general trend toward larger, more complex brains and societies



Definition of being
1
a : the quality or state of having existence

Come again?

[schwarzkopf]

A fertilised egg is an organism. It's a new life form.

Again - you need to do some research on who things work, and also on what words mean ... it literally is not an organism, assuming you also define a wart as not being an organism. Because the wart and the embryo are both attached to and dependent on the host's body to exist.

- - - Updated - - -

They are characterized by erect posture and bipedal locomotion; manual dexterity and increased tool use, compared to other animals; and a general trend toward larger, more complex brains and societies

Well - that settles it - an embryo is not a human. For that matter, neither is a 6 month old baby. Time to get those abortion laws adjusted hey

[Wiyld]

No, marriage is not only for people who wish to bear children.

My husband and I have been married for over 10 years now and neither of us wish to have children.

Thats fine...the fact that you can say that means you have had that discussion and trust the other party to hold true to that decision. The marrige isn't a decision to have a kid, its the decision to be 'true'. To make decisions about things like 'be willing to have any pregnancy that might result from us doin it'. Which is what you wanted.