Ascendance and Mastery

[Gr1mdark]

Hi there!

You guys all know about the 86,5% mastery cap in the Ascendance build.
I love the build and spec, but I've met a lot of issues keeping the cap in place.

Before I was using an 875 Urn with socket + bought of corruption (865) to reach the mastery cap.
Yesterday I rolled a Star gate, which sims a bit higher than the bought, but with the bought I am loosing about 1k mastery,
which makes me go under the cap of mastery.
Even if i get the Guldan trinket (shich is by far the top sim trinket on SEaL), it will also bring me bellow the mastery cap...

So the question is, how impotant in exactly the cap of mastery?
I mean, we all saw the stats on the tier set. The stats look bad, and with 4 pcs equiped, we will not be able
to reach 86,5% any time soon.
So foes it mean that we should go for ice-fury? Or is it okay when yu are not mastery capped?

Here is my armory if needed.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/ru/characte...E%D0%BC/simple

What do you guys say? Is the cap of mastery a must-have?

[Guran]

The cap is not a must-have, it's a drop-off point after which Mastery loses about 30-35% value and falls below other stats. Because it isn't as crucial as the old hit/expertise ratings, nor does it simply stop working at all after the cap, you will usually want to aim to be as close to the cap as possible, preferably slightly above, but not that mandatory.

In the end, if it sims higher, it'll probably be a DPS upgrade, regardless of cap. Do watch out with sim stat weights, as they tend to add a fixed amount (1000 I believe is the default) and then average out the gained DPS, so keep this in mind if you're evaluating the value of mastery while you're near the cap.

[Gr1mdark]

The cap is not a must-have, it's a drop-off point after which Mastery loses about 30-35% value and falls below other stats. Because it isn't as crucial as the old hit/expertise ratings, nor does it simply stop working at all after the cap, you will usually want to aim to be as close to the cap as possible, preferably slightly above, but not that mandatory.

In the end, if it sims higher, it'll probably be a DPS upgrade, regardless of cap. Do watch out with sim stat weights, as they tend to add a fixed amount (1000 I believe is the default) and then average out the gained DPS, so keep this in mind if you're evaluating the value of mastery while you're near the cap.

Okay, I see. so until the cap it is a "to go stat" and after that it is the last needed stat.
But there is nothing crucial if i loose some mastery and get int with increased sim dps.

Siming shows it as a slight dps increase (like 4k dps)
What fights should i sim to get the most realistic numbers. Right now I sim 4 min fight with light movement.
But the fights seem much longer now in NH.
And another thing would be the stats. Even when I lose the mastery cap, It shows vers as top stat close to mastery, then crit and haste.
But all 4 close to equal. This looks weired to me...

[Guran]

I generally tend to go for either 4 or 5 min fights with light movement, occasionally I'll up the movement bit when comparing talents just to see their viability in (new) movement heavy fights, but for gear I stick to light movement.
Some people might favour simming specific fight setups, but we stopped raiding Mythic because of the logistics, so my fight lengths are already more spread out depending on how many DPS we have.

As for the stats:
Versatility is high because you have absolutely none of it.
It's easiest to explain when you compare it to crit euhm ... for Enhancement. Because they don't have any special mechanics attached to it.
(Warning; the following is napkin math)
Let's take your 22% crit. If you were Enhancement, that would basicly mean that this 22% crit increased your DPS at 0% crit (let's say that it's 400k) by 22%
So you would end up at 400k + 88k = 488k.
But what happens if you take 1% crit extra? You gain 1% of the base 400k, not the extra 88k, because you can't double crit.
If you got 1% Versatility instead, you would gain 1% on that full 488k, for an extra 880 DPS more.
Of course, if you have 1% Versatility, then adding another only works on that 488k, while crit would then work on the 400k + 4k from Vers.

In more mathy terms: DPS = (1 + Crit%) * (1 + Vers%) * (1 + OtherStuff).
The increase in DPS is then the total amplifier of the stat.
CritIncrease = (1 + Vers%) * (1 + OtherStuff)
VersIncrease = (1 + Crit%) * (1 + OtherStuff)
Noticed how the stat itself only amplifies OTHER stats?
This is called diminishing returns, which means the more you stack it, the more valuable other stats become. This is why a lot of people are shifting towards more of a stat balance (e.g. Enhancement runs something like 1 Crit : ~2 Haste : 3-4 Mastery : 0.7-0.8 Versatility)

PS: I chose Enhancement Shaman because they don't have any mechanics that benefit from crit. Elemental crit interaction is more difficult, but the basis is that for every spell, you can write overall spell DPS = (1+crit)*(1+haste)*(1+vers)*(1+mastery) even if that mastery/haste gain is 0%. Then add up each part depending on time spent casting, including the effect of Haste & GCDs on it, then balance that vs a boss model, put it all into code to automate it and ... you are where simcraft is now, after MANY iterations and thousands of manhours combined from all theorycrafters. But atleast now you should be able to understand what simc does better

[Gr1mdark]

I generally tend to go for either 4 or 5 min fights with light movement, occasionally I'll up the movement bit when comparing talents just to see their viability in (new) movement heavy fights, but for gear I stick to light movement.
Some people might favour simming specific fight setups, but we stopped raiding Mythic because of the logistics, so my fight lengths are already more spread out depending on how many DPS we have.

As for the stats:
Versatility is high because you have absolutely none of it.
It's easiest to explain when you compare it to crit euhm ... for Enhancement. Because they don't have any special mechanics attached to it.
(Warning; the following is napkin math)
Let's take your 22% crit. If you were Enhancement, that would basicly mean that this 22% crit increased your DPS at 0% crit (let's say that it's 400k) by 22%
So you would end up at 400k + 88k = 488k.
But what happens if you take 1% crit extra? You gain 1% of the base 400k, not the extra 88k, because you can't double crit.
If you got 1% Versatility instead, you would gain 1% on that full 488k, for an extra 880 DPS more.
Of course, if you have 1% Versatility, then adding another only works on that 488k, while crit would then work on the 400k + 4k from Vers.

In more mathy terms: DPS = (1 + Crit%) * (1 + Vers%) * (1 + OtherStuff).
The increase in DPS is then the total amplifier of the stat.
CritIncrease = (1 + Vers%) * (1 + OtherStuff)
VersIncrease = (1 + Crit%) * (1 + OtherStuff)
Noticed how the stat itself only amplifies OTHER stats?
This is called diminishing returns, which means the more you stack it, the more valuable other stats become. This is why a lot of people are shifting towards more of a stat balance (e.g. Enhancement runs something like 1 Crit : ~2 Haste : 3-4 Mastery : 0.7-0.8 Versatility)

PS: I chose Enhancement Shaman because they don't have any mechanics that benefit from crit. Elemental crit interaction is more difficult, but the basis is that for every spell, you can write overall spell DPS = (1+crit)*(1+haste)*(1+vers)*(1+mastery) even if that mastery/haste gain is 0%. Then add up each part depending on time spent casting, including the effect of Haste & GCDs on it, then balance that vs a boss model, put it all into code to automate it and ... you are where simcraft is now, after MANY iterations and thousands of manhours combined from all theorycrafters. But atleast now you should be able to understand what simc does better

Oh god, that is complicated...
So is there a way to get the right stat weights, which i could write into the PAWN addon?
It looks like the best way without spending hours and hours with theorycrafting is simply to follow the written things on SEaL.
Just get mastery as close to the cap as possible and get crit and other things...

[Flashforcash]

Oh god, that is complicated...
So is there a way to get the right stat weights, which i could write into the PAWN addon?
It looks like the best way without spending hours and hours with theorycrafting is simply to follow the written things on SEaL.
Just get mastery as close to the cap as possible and get crit and other things...

sim your own character, it gives you the best answers

(im at Work so cant remember if these pawn stats are the right, but i did sim myself just before raid last night and had the following values around this)

int: 1.0
Vers: 0.84
Crit: 0.83
Haste 0.74
mastery: 0.65

I have the mastery cap and sim around 530k.

[Guran]

Oh god, that is complicated...
So is there a way to get the right stat weights, which i could write into the PAWN addon?
It looks like the best way without spending hours and hours with theorycrafting is simply to follow the written things on SEaL.
Just get mastery as close to the cap as possible and get crit and other things...

Easiest version:
Get simcraft & keep it up to date, rerun for new values if you get gear upgrades.
If you are debating the value of trinkets/legendaries, sim them beforehand.

Or even faster, but relatively inaccurate method:
Rule of thumb = your best stat on it is worth +10ilvl, your second best +5ilvl. Feelcraft anything equal.
Best stats would then be Mastery(86.5%) > Crit > Versatility > Haste> Mastery(100%)


But I would suggest the running simcraft method, you can even just run it once per week to adjust values, e.g. the day before your first weekly raid day.

[Deleted]

int: 1.0
Vers: 8.4
Crit: 8.3
Haste 7.4
mastery: 6.5

You mean Int 10.0 I think. Now way Int is that low.

[Flashforcash]

You mean Int 10.0 I think. Now way Int is that low.

Ment actually 0.* but your right, thx :-)

[netherflame]

I usually parse >80th percentile and just aim to sit between 80-85% mastery, I don't let my mastery number run my life to the sense that some people seem to let it.

[Gegora]

I dont think the Acendance is a must have, but it is important to hve you mastery as high as possible for the procs. In this if i were you i would go with Icefury.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I dont think the Acendance is a must have, but it is important to hve you mastery as high as possible for the procs. In this if i were you i would go with Icefury.

Icefury demands more attention to detail in order to pull ahead though so while it will dominate single target any fault in the rotation or priority will put it behind Ascendance which can be mastered while blindfolded.

I'm sure it's not that hard to get in to though but I'm a huge Heroic scrublord and don't like having the extra buttons to push. I'm the DPS only a mother could love.

[Coldfire989]

I dont think the Acendance is a must have, but it is important to hve you mastery as high as possible for the procs. In this if i were you i would go with Icefury.

I would go LR if you are not where you want to be Mastery wise yet.

[Gegora]

I would go LR if you are not where you want to be Mastery wise yet.

I agree, getting mastery up is also a pain.

- - - Updated - - -

Icefury demands more attention to detail in order to pull ahead though so while it will dominate single target any fault in the rotation or priority will put it behind Ascendance which can be mastered while blindfolded.

I'm sure it's not that hard to get in to though but I'm a huge Heroic scrublord and don't like having the extra buttons to push. I'm the DPS only a mother could love.

Correct, to keep the rotation this requires experience in your class. Ive seen alot of shamans who dont do the rotations good. If youre a beginner then go Ascendance, if youre mastery is up high! then icefury and get youre rotation right

[melodramocracy]

I would go LR if you are not where you want to be Mastery wise yet.

I agree with this. LR is currently out performing ascendance for me unless the fight is very short. I'm at around 71% mastery buffed, and unfortunately none of my relics help out lava burst at all. I'll come back to it when I get more of the right gear I suppose

[Gr1mdark]

I agree with this. LR is currently out performing ascendance for me unless the fight is very short. I'm at around 71% mastery buffed, and unfortunately none of my relics help out lava burst at all. I'll come back to it when I get more of the right gear I suppose

Got the same amount of mastery but Ascendance is a bit ahead of LR. If you look at patchwerk sims.
Got only 2 pcs of the set though. With the 4th set bonus Asc should pull ahead... i guess.

- - - Updated - - -

But i must tell,
I simed my shaman and inserted the stat weights to Pwan, Then I switched some items and droped down mastery from 80% to 70%.
But i got some other stats like crit and vers up a bit, which increase my dps in total.

So what i want to say is, that it works. You really should sim and follow the weights.

[melodramocracy]

Got the same amount of mastery but Ascendance is a bit ahead of LR. If you look at patchwerk sims.
Got only 2 pcs of the set though. With the 4th set bonus Asc should pull ahead... i guess.

- - - Updated - - -

But i must tell,
I simed my shaman and inserted the stat weights to Pwan, Then I switched some items and droped down mastery from 80% to 70%.
But i got some other stats like crit and vers up a bit, which increase my dps in total.

So what i want to say is, that it works. You really should sim and follow the weights.

I do sim to try at least get a baseline. What I find interesting is that frequently I'll run a test, get weights, make gear changes based on those weights, and the very next sim run will be a slight dps loss

[Knifttar]

I agree with this. LR is currently out performing ascendance for me unless the fight is very short. I'm at around 71% mastery buffed, and unfortunately none of my relics help out lava burst at all. I'll come back to it when I get more of the right gear I suppose

You still want Lava Imbued as LR.

[wrynil]

How much is the mastery cap in rating points and not in % ?

[Deleted]

How much is the mastery cap in rating points and not in % ?

Just saw another post a few posts down below.. Apparently it's 12178 rating, 86.5%