About that combat revamp

[Wrecktangle]

My biggest issue with WoW currently isn't the balance per-se (I did just get butchered pretty bad), but it's the obvious lack of testing controls. I am 87% sure they have no manual internal testing processes. I think their entire testing is done via automation and PTR. They have a wealth of free testing players, but the feedback is ignored, so I'm not actually sure of its value to them, since they don't do anything with the data in house anyway.

They nerfed DPS legendaries (rightfully so), but then retuned new ones to exceed the performance of outgoing ones. That to me is one bit of proof. The second was when they released a trinket that was incredibly powerful for most classes, but especially on mine, they nerfed it by 70%, the day of. I don't care that they nerfed it. I care that it went live like that in the first place. That is another example to me that screams we designed something and never tested its functionality.

FF14 has its balance issues for sure, but it definitely seems like their tuning is a lot tighter because I think they do a good bit of it in house. I think they're approaches are sometimes sub-optimal but you can definitely feel that their heart is in the right place.

Automation is great in a lot of aspects, but there are reasons some processes are manual and its because they provide insight few automated tools could ever replicate without an abundance of assumptions that muddy the quality anyway.

[Kazgrel]

It's not possible for me to agree with you any more than I do.

I also have literally nothing nice to say about Celestalon, however that's a rant for another day/ thread.


After rereading the 9 page interview with Yoshida from November I don't dread the combat revamp, untill Yoshida/Square give me reason to start worrying.

Let's just say I'm being very, VERY nice with how I stated that (the portion of the post you bolded).

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My biggest issue with WoW currently isn't the balance per-se (I did just get butchered pretty bad), but it's the obvious lack of testing controls. I am 87% sure they have no manual internal testing processes. I think their entire testing is done via automation and PTR. They have a wealth of free testing players, but the feedback is ignored, so I'm not actually sure of its value to them, since they don't do anything with the data in house anyway.

They nerfed DPS legendaries (rightfully so), but then retuned new ones to exceed the performance of outgoing ones. That to me is one bit of proof. The second was when they released a trinket that was incredibly powerful for most classes, but especially on mine, they nerfed it by 70%, the day of. I don't care that they nerfed it. I care that it went live like that in the first place. That is another example to me that screams we designed something and never tested its functionality.

FF14 has its balance issues for sure, but it definitely seems like their tuning is a lot tighter because I think they do a good bit of it in house. I think they're approaches are sometimes sub-optimal but you can definitely feel that their heart is in the right place.

Automation is great in a lot of aspects, but there are reasons some processes are manual and its because they provide insight few automated tools could ever replicate without an abundance of assumptions that muddy the quality anyway.

Sounds like some things (and by some things, I mean Blizzard's balancing/tuning) never change. That said, FF14 does not have an item category near as tricky to balance as WoW's trinkets, but that's a whole other story.

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Yoshida couldn't hold back tears as he apologized on stage for 1.0 being so bad. Yoshida wasn't even involved in 1.0 and he still got emotional apologizing for its failing to meet standards and expectations. That said a lot about him for me.

I just wish I had known about the guy when they did the Veteran program in 1.0. I would have supported them for the 3 months and had the discount now (my friend does have it).

I would've loved to have had the veteran perks as well, but given the timeframe of 1.0's existence, even as bad as Cataclysm was, I would've stuck with that instead.

There was a series of videos recently put out that detailed bits of what made 1.0 so awful...oh hey, I found it:



That's the first one. The commentator can grate the nerves a bit (in the first video at least), but what all he showcases in the series made me facepalm at some of the design implementations and decisions that were made back then.

[Sorrior]

I do wish I had played 1.0 at this point myself mind you I doubt my computer could have handled it back then.

I do wish they would make it a single player game kinda like dragons dogma abd maybe allow perks for those who finish it. Might be a cool thing to try.

[Florena]

I wish I had played 1.0 if only to experience the story leading up to the ARR cinematic.

[TriHard]

I actually did play 1.0 but I hated it so I didn't even bother playing it a lot. It felt too much like XI to me, which I was not a fan of.

As I usually say, FFXIV is the greatest apology to a gaming community ever, i might've not played the game that much yet, but I do love it. And Yoshida is sincere about what he feels about the game, he loves that project and it's players.

I feel like WoW lost that once Jeff Kaplan quit back in wotlk. But now you get that sincere feeling in Overwatch. I believe Jeff Kaplan is the american "Yoshida" in that sense.

[Kazgrel]

I wish I had played 1.0 if only to experience the story leading up to the ARR cinematic.

You mean like this?:



I see this and it hurts to think of how the build up to WoW's Cataclysm doesn't hold a candle to this. You see this giant moon about to crash into the planet, then all hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, I remember killing elementals in Orgrimmar for 5 mins, getting an achievement...and that was it.

Did 1.0 players know that Bahamut was gonna break out of that thing prior? Not sure how many of our posters here played back then. I'm basically a HW baby, having started 2-3 months prior to HW launch. If I was going into that cinematic with no idea what was about to happen...goosebump city.

[Anzaman]

I see this and it hurts to think of how the build up to WoW's Cataclysm doesn't hold a candle to this. You see this giant moon about to crash into the planet, then all hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, I remember killing elementals in Orgrimmar for 5 mins, getting an achievement...and that was it.

It was pretty cataclysmic to kill few elemental mobs in city.

I looked at 1.0 several times but it just didn't grab my interest back then. Now that I think about it again, it might have been interesting experience, but WoW kept tight grip of my friends so I didn't really bother exploring MMORPG market.

[Deleted]

We don't know what they are doing with any of the jobs just by the time we hit 70 we will roughly have the same number of abilities now.

They'll probably combine aero one and two cause its redundant maybe make shroud into a passive

cheers mate. as long as there is nothing too drastic, i'll be a happy healer

[dope_danny]

It's not possible for me to agree with you any more than I do.

I also have literally nothing nice to say about Celestalon, however that's a rant for another day/ thread.

Well when Celestalon brags about playing with a graphics tablet instead of a mouse thats not going to hold up to designers that play like the audience does.

[Aruhen]

I see this and it hurts to think of how the build up to WoW's Cataclysm doesn't hold a candle to this. You see this giant moon about to crash into the planet, then all hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, I remember killing elementals in Orgrimmar for 5 mins, getting an achievement...and that was it.

Dont forget that the ground shook at times...

While I have some, I also have a fair amount more confidence in Yoshida and company with this over the likes of Celestalon.

People complained about Ghostcrawler at times but honestly when he was in charge of that stuff the game was in its best state class wise.

[Graeham]

People complained about Ghostcrawler at times but honestly when he was in charge of that stuff the game was in its best state class wise.

He also pushed for Vashj'ir, which is one of my favourite WoW zones to this day. It had its flaws, certainly, but it shook things up a lot and looked really good. I'm very curious to see what the underwater areas in FFXIV will look like.

[Kazgrel]

People complained about Ghostcrawler at times but honestly when he was in charge of that stuff the game was in its best state class wise.

Correlation isn't necessarily causation and all but yeah...I vividly remember when people kept calling for his head on a pike throughout Cataclysm and into MoP (basically from whenever he took the lead systems designer role or whatever the title is until he left), and while I wasn't a 100% of the guy, I appreciated how much he engaged the playerbase despite all the flak that would get thrown back at him, and I always told friends of mine "careful what you wish for...they could get someone who's even worse".

Sometimes I don't like being right.

Anyways, combat revamp. Hopefully they shed some more light on this at the EU Fanfest.

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He also pushed for Vashj'ir, which is one of my favourite WoW zones to this day. It had its flaws, certainly, but it shook things up a lot and looked really good. I'm very curious to see what the underwater areas in FFXIV will look like.

Initially I wasn't a huge fan of the place, but going to give credit where I think it's due...they definitely tried something far from the ordinary with that zone, and it's one of the more unique zones of any MMO I've played.

The biggest disappointment, though, is how they had all that story buildup in that zone, only for it to get cut and left on the (ocean) floor (see: The end of the Throne of Tides dungeon + the rumored Abyssal Maw raid that ended up cut, as far as I can remember).

[Aruhen]

He also pushed for Vashj'ir, which is one of my favourite WoW zones to this day. It had its flaws, certainly, but it shook things up a lot and looked really good. I'm very curious to see what the underwater areas in FFXIV will look like.

Agreed. Incredibly beautiful zone. The darker regions of the zone had translucent fauna while other parts had groups of jellyfish swimming together. Legion has parts of Vashj'ir vibes in certain quests but its too close to the surface so its not as dark.

The biggest disappointment, though, is how they had all that story buildup in that zone, only for it to get cut and left on the (ocean) floor (see: The end of the Throne of Tides dungeon + the rumored Abyssal Maw raid that ended up cut, as far as I can remember).

I'm so sad we never got the Abyssal Maw raid... fuck. How cool would have been to get water elemental themed weapons...

Correlation isn't necessarily causation and all but yeah...I vividly remember when people kept calling for his head on a pike throughout Cataclysm and into MoP (basically from whenever he took the lead systems designer role or whatever the title is until he left), and while I wasn't a 100% of the guy, I appreciated how much he engaged the playerbase despite all the flak that would get thrown back at him, and I always told friends of mine "careful what you wish for...they could get someone who's even worse".

He was the head of that department so he had an influence on the teams decision making. People mostly hated him because lets be honest the player base is incredibly dull-witted because MoP had some of the best not just gameplay designs but also balance across the board. You could for the most part play any spec and still go do high end stuff and be competitive unlike pre 7.1.5 were the balance was honestly a complete embarrassment.

I honestly sorta miss the guy, he had this sorta snarky attitude when communicating with players were as the new team has an incredibly condescending attitude.

[StrawberryZebra]

cheers mate. as long as there is nothing too drastic, i'll be a happy healer

It's odd that the idea of ability pruning and combat changes have an immediate knee-jerk reaction. In almost every MMO I've played there have been at least a couple of abilities that could be completely removed in a hotfix and no one would even notice. Usually a lot more than just a handful. Even in FF 14 there's a lot of streamlining that could be done without spoiling the play experience at all. FF 14 gives you, with your base class, cross class skills and your job a total of 33, without including some of those other useful skills you'll want to have on hand like Sprint, Limit breaks, mounts etc. At the rate they added skills in HW, 5 more might be too many to deal with for most players.

I would much rather have a smaller selection of cool, useful skills than have 30 different hotbars all full of slightly different, highly niche skills. I know people are upset that WoW dropped the ball when it came to cleaning up some of the ability acretion they piled on over the years, but that doesn't mean that every MMO is going to mess it up. The more skills you have, the less memorable each one becomes, especially when you're in the situation where you have to dilute how good each one can be in order not to overshadow some of the less useful skills.

It's interesting to think of how many abilities you really need to make a good game. Games like LoL and Dota have just 4 abilities per hero and they reach a huge audience. Pac-Man had no special abilities at all, only movement and thats still a great game. At what point do you start getting too many? 100 skills? 500? 1000? I know there's never going to be a right answer, but it's an interesting thought experiment all the same.

He also pushed for Vashj'ir, which is one of my favourite WoW zones to this day. It had its flaws, certainly, but it shook things up a lot and looked really good. I'm very curious to see what the underwater areas in FFXIV will look like.

Personally I loved Vashj'ir. It was by far the most unique zone in WoW at the time. It probably still is, too. I have fond memories of it mostly from being there on launch day, on a PvP server, and playing a Frost Mage. I got very little leveling done, but I had fun killing three Horde at once. Good times all round .

[Melsiren]

People complained about Ghostcrawler at times but honestly when he was in charge of that stuff the game was in its best state class wise.

Ghostcrawler was fantastic, not even about balance and class wise. The man communicated, and yeah he might not tell you what you want to hear but at least he communicated with the player base, during the Haste Protection Paladin dilemma during ToT (TL: DR for people not in the know, Dodge and parry were ass for Prot pallies, haste was amazing but did not exist on Tier gear.) He actually discussed with the theory crafters and the community at large. Unlike Celestalon... Brewmaster Monks, all I got to say.

[Berethos08]

Did 1.0 players know that Bahamut was gonna break out of that thing prior? Not sure how many of our posters here played back then. I'm basically a HW baby, having started 2-3 months prior to HW launch. If I was going into that cinematic with no idea what was about to happen...goosebump city.

By and large, no one really had a clue (a few theories that suggested Bahamut connections but nothing more). When the trailer played that was the first indication (and apparently even then there was some debate as to which dragon it was until Yoshi-P set them right.

A perspective of it from someone who was there: Link

[Kazgrel]

Ghostcrawler was fantastic, not even about balance and class wise. The man communicated, and yeah he might not tell you what you want to hear but at least he communicated with the player base, during the Haste Protection Paladin dilemma during ToT (TL: DR for people not in the know, Dodge and parry were ass for Prot pallies, haste was amazing but did not exist on Tier gear.) He actually discussed with the theory crafters and the community at large. Unlike Celestalon... Brewmaster Monks, all I got to say.

Ask any long-time elemental shaman of their opinion of Celestalon...oh, and be ready to take cover.

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By and large, no one really had a clue (a few theories that suggested Bahamut connections but nothing more). When the trailer played that was the first indication (and apparently even then there was some debate as to which dragon it was until Yoshi-P set them right.

A perspective of it from someone who was there: Link

Oooo...that almost makes me wish I bailed on WoW sooner, even with how failboat 1.0 was. I could've probably stomached it later on...but whether or not I would've been around when they started requiring paid subscription again, I have no idea. The whole hindsight being 20/20 thing and whatnot.

[dope_danny]

He also pushed for Vashj'ir, which is one of my favourite WoW zones to this day. It had its flaws, certainly, but it shook things up a lot and looked really good. I'm very curious to see what the underwater areas in FFXIV will look like.

Its funny but the folks i know that stuck with WoW all hate Vash'jir, the people who jumped to XIV loved it. Personally i'm a sucker for deep sea in videogames. All the stuff like bioluminescent deep sea life and so on is creepy and cool and fantasy games never touch on it much outside lovecraft knock offs. Maybe it says something about the audiences? jrpg fans tend to enjoy far more "birds for scale" level giant magical ruins and buildings so magic they might as well be sci-fi, western rpg fans tend to lean more to traditional low fantasy maybe with a dragon or two but still plain castles and forests and such. So for something more out there like deep sea magical fantasy adventure i was not surprised it was not popular in WoW but i think an underwater zone in XIV would probably be recieved better.

god knows the catgirls will love another excuse to slutglamour their moonfire tangas

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Oooo...that almost makes me wish I bailed on WoW sooner, even with how failboat 1.0 was. I could've probably stomached it later on...but whether or not I would've been around when they started requiring paid subscription again, I have no idea. The whole hindsight being 20/20 thing and whatnot.

i wouldnt say its worth it, but it made the reuse of answers this patch spine tingling.

[Consiliem]

Its funny but the folks i know that stuck with WoW all hate Vash'jir, the people who jumped to XIV loved it. Personally i'm a sucker for deep sea in videogames. All the stuff like bioluminescent deep sea life and so on is creepy and cool and fantasy games never touch on it much outside lovecraft knock offs. Maybe it says something about the audiences? jrpg fans tend to enjoy far more "birds for scale" level giant magical ruins and buildings so magic they might as well be sci-fi, western rpg fans tend to lean more to traditional low fantasy maybe with a dragon or two but still plain castles and forests and such. So for something more out there like deep sea magical fantasy adventure i was not surprised it was not popular in WoW but i think an underwater zone in XIV would probably be recieved better.

Couldn't agree with you more, everyone I know who still plays WoW hated the entire underwater experience and I thought it was refreshing. Something about running along the floor with the Sea Legs buff just felt SO satisfying.

The lack of underwater representation in video games is one of the big reasons I enjoyed playing Subnautica so much. Entirely different genre, but it does very well at the underwater exploration and lifestyle feel.

[Faroth]

Ask any long-time elemental shaman of their opinion of Celestalon...oh, and be ready to take cover.

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Oooo...that almost makes me wish I bailed on WoW sooner, even with how failboat 1.0 was. I could've probably stomached it later on...but whether or not I would've been around when they started requiring paid subscription again, I have no idea. The whole hindsight being 20/20 thing and whatnot.

My friend did the 3 months support and sent me the email about it, but even then it wasn't really clear just how much Yoshida was going to do. As much of a snore as Cataclysm was, getting alts up was more fun than what 1.0 had been and I wasn't hopping back into it at the time.

If I had known now what I knew then...



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Its funny but the folks i know that stuck with WoW all hate Vash'jir, the people who jumped to XIV loved it. Personally i'm a sucker for deep sea in videogames. All the stuff like bioluminescent deep sea life and so on is creepy and cool and fantasy games never touch on it much outside lovecraft knock offs. Maybe it says something about the audiences? jrpg fans tend to enjoy far more "birds for scale" level giant magical ruins and buildings so magic they might as well be sci-fi, western rpg fans tend to lean more to traditional low fantasy maybe with a dragon or two but still plain castles and forests and such. So for something more out there like deep sea magical fantasy adventure i was not surprised it was not popular in WoW but i think an underwater zone in XIV would probably be recieved better.

god knows the catgirls will love another excuse to slutglamour their moonfire tangas

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i wouldnt say its worth it, but it made the reuse of answers this patch spine tingling.

I'll break the mold. I hated Vashj'ir and made the jump to FFXIV!

The zone was cool, I'll grant that, but the game play in the 360 degree environment didn't work for me. The story was unfulfilling as well.

With that said.... how dare you insult my people! Apologize to the entire proud and noble miqo'te race!