Blizzard and PvP: Incompetent or Focused on Bottom Line?

[Nuba]

One doesn't need "insider" info to determine what's been going on. It's easy enough to notice from astute observation, and there are enough posts around to explain it.

You have to start from the facts that: 1) it's a sub-based game and, 2) Activision is a large corporation. Blizz isn't some small indy house with a handful of nerds making rilly kewl games for other gaming nerds. The last vestige of that went kaput when Blizzard North closed down around the time Acti took over.

They're producing a "product" to generate maximum profit margin from. That is ALL they're interested in, no different than if they made shoes or refrigerators. To them, games are just product, and as a publicly-traded corporation on the stock market their main concern is to please their stockholders.

This is the over-arching factor that fanboys often forget or pretend doesn't exist.

Their job is to hype the product (next xpac) to generate sales (which means lie, obfuscate and make bullshit promises), then to get you to pay a sub fee for as long as possible. As a side benefit, the longer you're in the game the greater the chances that you'll also spend money in the Blizz Shop. That means increasing the grind and wasting your time in game as much as they can with everything you do, while keeping overhead expenses as low as possible. That's why we haven't seen new content for PvP, or creating new gear models/separate PvP gear, or new modes of PvP like War Campaigns, all-RNG, PvE for AP, simplified rotations (pruning), constantly shifting imbalance, stupidly skewed racials, and all the rest.

Nearly every single issue that players have with WoW can be traced back to one of these motives: extending the grind or time-in-game, lowering development time/cost, encouraging race and server hopping, and so on.

this is so true, almost all of it.

You just left out the part that their minimum effort is drawing a portion of their player base away, not only in PvP (where the lack of efficiency and effort is completely aparent) but also in PvE, just read the last patch notes "so we nerfed 5% to see if it gets better" and you'll see a screaming lack of quality.
PvP lost almost its totality of the player participating base from WOTLK/(when holinka took over?) to Legion S01, that is an absurd loss of money.
They're losing money, but the nepotism inside blizzard's headquarters is just too big for them to simply fire holinka and celestalon and their useless teams.

[Nerovar]

1.) Slowly start making PvP worse
2.) Watch the steady decline in player numbers
3.) At this point PvP players are a minority
4.) Use 3.) as an excuse for further destroying PvP since it's only a mini game at this point
5.) Lose subs

It's like back in the good ol' days of WoD when they came up with something similar:
1.) Make Ashran a lackluster piece of trash
2.) Lock certain items/faster gear progression behind stupid Trashran RNG boxes
3.) Players are forced to play Ashran in order to stay competetive
4.) Nullify critique by saying that many players play Ashran (because of 2.))
5.) Make PvP gear entirely RNG in the next expansion

[Deleted]

5.) Make PvP gear entirely RNG in the next expansion

Well as far as I remember - those Ashran Boxes were sooooo popular with PvPers.

lololololololololol

[Professor Expert]

troll more!

yes BC was the best and its not even close!day 1 in wrath was ther worst this game has ever seen!yeah warth got a little better as it went on but it was the being of the end and over the years pvp gets worse and worse.

everything i said in this post and my last is 100% correct or do you think dks were balanced in s5?every season in BC was better then s5.

Yes, TBC was the best pvp was in terms of apparent fairness. All classes could, more or less, compete in the rated PvP which was the big new thing that made BGs and world pvp irrelevant. Personally, I think it was a step in the wrong direction because as soon as rated pvp arena became "the only pvp that matters" it became its own separate thing.

Prior to that, vanilla pvp was incredibly broken with ranged classes essentially being unkillable by melee...although the game was centered around big group battles and not 2-3 man skirmishes. The smaller the group size, the more individual class disparities become an issue and hinder the overall enjoyment of players - precisely why arena was so full of fail.

1.) Slowly start making PvP worse
2.) Watch the steady decline in player numbers
3.) At this point PvP players are a minority
4.) Use 3.) as an excuse for further destroying PvP since it's only a mini game at this point
5.) Lose subs

It's like back in the good ol' days of WoD when they came up with something similar:
1.) Make Ashran a lackluster piece of trash
2.) Lock certain items/faster gear progression behind stupid Trashran RNG boxes
3.) Players are forced to play Ashran in order to stay competetive
4.) Nullify critique by saying that many players play Ashran (because of 2.))
5.) Make PvP gear entirely RNG in the next expansion

Seems like that's what happened but what's the point of marginalizing pvp when that is the predominant endgame activity of most players. They still feed into this myth that raiding is popular when not even 1% of the player base raids. Raids should be integrated into the game world and should be more than a mob of players focused on one boss.

Raids should be massive scale battles against other players and/or NPCs. I always thought it was kind of stupid for the big bad raid bosses allegedly responsible for the current plights within Azeroth to be sitting around in a cave or castle waiting to be attacked rather than being out in the open world actually attacking.

Well as far as I remember - those Ashran Boxes were sooooo popular with PvPers.

lololololololololol

They weren't. Most pvp enthusiasts were fine with the conq/honor point vendor model.

[Mosotti]

It's impossible to balance WoW in PvP. Too many classes, too many spells, too many combinations. It has always been like this. The only time there is "balance" is when the fucking whiners happen to play the class that's better that season. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that you can apply to Blizzard as an awesome game designers and help them "fix the game".

- - - Updated - - -

Seems like that's what happened but what's the point of marginalizing pvp when that is the predominant endgame activity of most players

You are completely delusional. PvP predominant activity?? Fucking lol all over the fucking floor

[tikcol]

That's not an apt comparison. If you're talking about the highest level of PvP (R1/Glad/GM), then 1 Heroic kill in raids is not the same. You would compare something like Mythic raid bosses or wings and having 50 kills ("wins") during the PvP season you're referencing.

I do think that Blizz operates from a strictly profit point of view though as you said: "2.) Blizzard is completely competent, but their focus is on the bottom line..." There may be some mistakes and incompetence along the way, but from miscalculations or wrong assumptions about what the player base will tolerate and how far Blizz can push them in order to maximize profits.

They find that point or go a bit beyond it, then start to pull back from it only if necessary to stop sub loss.

Sorry but I have to tell you this, you seem to believe that a mythic raider is on par with a R1 arena player.

Only another R1 arena player is on par with another R1 arena player, there's no PvE aspect of the game that requires as much skill and knowledge of the game than being R1

[Holofernes]

i agree that tbc pvp was the best pvp wow ever had. Gear made a difference, skill made a difference. Not all classes were able to do pvp (but it became better at like s2 / s3, were variance amongst classes improved, every healer spec was strong, every class had a strong dps spec that was viable in arena (yes even rets were) and outliers only were with insanely geared rogues (renataki assa rogue in s2 , generally assa rogue in s3/s4) and perhaps feral and the sl sl warlocks were a little bit overpowered (but still you would be able to take games from them). The game was slower paced, so people could actually react to stuff. Double dps teams in 2vs2 could rank very high. CC was strong, but required to score a skill as hp to dmg ratio and burst was slowed down so much with resilience (and its crit reduce, people had like 20 % reduced crit and 40 % critdmg reduce in pvp gear), that the arena matches were entertaining and interesting to play (and watch). Often you battled for resources (cooldowns, mana) more than for a kill, it was more tactical / strategical thinking, with applying pressure with switching around, making the other healer spent more mana than your own, so u can ultimatily were the other team down. Scoring a win in a high ranked 3vs3 game back than was way more satisfying than it is nowadays. did u watch the blizzcon 3vs3 finals? This shit isnt pvp in the same style it was in tbc, its just stupid spank and gank until somebody blows up.

Since wotlk arena is more or less hurr durr + throw insta cc on the other guys. Its "fast paced" aka people just blow up left and right, and i think that this is what blizzard wanted. I liked the slower paced arena more, but perhaps im getting old. Last time i have done more or less decent arena pvp outside of weekly quests, i got a challenger title in last wod season, and i felt so alienated by how people play, just tunnel tunnel tunnel tunnel while chaining cd cd cd cd , no cd left, insta cc someone dies. This kind of playstyle should never work in competetive pvp.

[Professor Expert]

You are completely delusional. PvP predominant activity?? Fucking lol all over the fucking floor

You're obviously not very bright, but do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the distribution of players according to time spent on a given activity. BGs is up top, raids not so much. Doing this will prevent you from looking like the fool you are.

[Deleted]

They weren't. Most pvp enthusiasts were fine with the conq/honor point vendor model.

Seems you missed the point I was making. Which was exactly that. :P

[Sliske]

troll more!

yes BC was the best and its not even close!day 1 in wrath was ther worst this game has ever seen!yeah warth got a little better as it went on but it was the being of the end and over the years pvp gets worse and worse.

everything i said in this post and my last is 100% correct or do you think dks were balanced in s5?every season in BC was better then s5.

1st season of expansions are always imbalanced. Last season of expansions are always the most balanced

For obvious reasons.

Jerk yourself off about TBC all you want. TBC was no where near as balanced as cataclysm or wotlk or even mop (in terms of sheer number of viable R1 comps)

[Caolela]

Sorry but I have to tell you this, you seem to believe that a mythic raider is on par with a R1 arena player.

Only another R1 arena player is on par with another R1 arena player, there's no PvE aspect of the game that requires as much skill and knowledge of the game than being R1

I didn't say they're equivalent because that's very subjective. Also with the rampant cheating/scripting going on, and the hundreds of macros and add-ons used as crutches, it's impossible to tell who is actually the better skilled or knowledgeable.

The point was simply to compare the top rated players from one area of the game (PvP) to the top rated in another area (PvE - Mythic not Heroic).

[Professor Expert]

Seems you missed the point I was making. Which was exactly that. :P

Seems you missed the point that I was agreeing with you.

1st season of expansions are always imbalanced. Last season of expansions are always the most balanced

For obvious reasons.

Jerk yourself off about TBC all you want. TBC was no where near as balanced as cataclysm or wotlk or even mop (in terms of sheer number of viable R1 comps)

Season 3 during TBC was the most balanced. If you're citing a far end on either side of the bell curve as proof of balance, you're actually refuting your own argument in favor of balance. You're also conflating "viable" with "optimal" - they're both distinct conditions. There were always a lot of viable comps, but a relative few that were optimal...and that's always going to be the case unless classes are removed and all character skills/abilities are identical.

[Sliske]

Season 3 during TBC was the most balanced. If you're citing a far end on either side of the bell curve as proof of balance, you're actually refuting your own argument in favor of balance. You're also conflating "viable" with "optimal" - they're both distinct conditions. There were always a lot of viable comps, but a relative few that were optimal...and that's always going to be the case unless classes are removed and all character skills/abilities are identical.

Optimal is meaningless when you're talking about balance.

Rock paper scissors is 100% balanced. It also isn't fun. For more than 20 seconds.

People asking for perfect balance should understand that. Perfect balance comes at a price.

[xZerocidex]

Yes, TBC was the best pvp was in terms of apparent fairness. All classes could, more or less, compete in the rated PvP which was the big new thing that made BGs and world pvp irrelevant. Personally, I think it was a step in the wrong direction because as soon as rated pvp arena became "the only pvp that matters" it became its own separate thing.

Prior to that, vanilla pvp was incredibly broken with ranged classes essentially being unkillable by melee...although the game was centered around big group battles and not 2-3 man skirmishes. The smaller the group size, the more individual class disparities become an issue and hinder the overall enjoyment of players - precisely why arena was so full of fail.



Seems like that's what happened but what's the point of marginalizing pvp when that is the predominant endgame activity of most players. They still feed into this myth that raiding is popular when not even 1% of the player base raids. Raids should be integrated into the game world and should be more than a mob of players focused on one boss.

Raids should be massive scale battles against other players and/or NPCs. I always thought it was kind of stupid for the big bad raid bosses allegedly responsible for the current plights within Azeroth to be sitting around in a cave or castle waiting to be attacked rather than being out in the open world actually attacking.



They weren't. Most pvp enthusiasts were fine with the conq/honor point vendor model.

They're hellbent on this raid or die mentality, while it was evident in WoD it's still a thing in Legion.

Raiding is alright don't get me wrong, but as you said it's not something majority of the playerbase spend their time doing when they play. PvP participation is at an all time low in Legion and I doubt it's going to go back up anytime soon. At best, we're looking at next xpac if they decide to revert the damage that was done to the PvP side of the game(And that's a huge "If".).

[Metallourlante]

Are we talking in general or in Legion specifically?
In Legion 100% incompetent imho, they had absolutely no clue how to develop a fun environment in pvp this time

[Mosotti]

You're obviously not very bright, but do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the distribution of players according to time spent on a given activity. BGs is up top, raids not so much. Doing this will prevent you from looking like the fool you are.

Yeah, your source (your own ass hole) is pretty convincing.

[Caolela]

Are we talking in general or in Legion specifically?
In Legion 100% incompetent imho, they had absolutely no clue how to develop a fun environment in pvp this time

Has nothing to do with "incompetence", except for one very important thing: in their greedy push, they miscalculated how many people would leave PvP because of all-RNG gear, templates, AP/wep grind, alt unfriendly, and the rest of what Legion did to PvP.

They have plenty of clues about how to develop a fun environment in PvP because they've done so before and have 12 years XP in WoW, not to mention other titles. The problem is they don't give a fuck about that now. They're only out for max profits. They started this long ago and it became more apparent in WoD; Legion was a further extension of it.

See my post #61 above.

Some of you need to get real with the fact that no $4 Billion corporation is going to sit on its hands and allow "incompetent" design if it's going to hurt their bottom line. Any intelligent (non-fanboy) reading of the forums and blue posts before Legion would have told you what they were thinking, and their lack of response to issues raised during alpha & beta.

Blizzard's problem now is how not to revert most of the grind, RNG, etc. (keeping the profit gains) while still retaining players, and luring back those who quit. One evidence of that is how badly they borked the Arena titles and took so long to attempt a fix.

Once again they've over-reached and fucked not just the players but themselves too.

[xZerocidex]

Has nothing to do with "incompetence", except for one very important thing: in their greedy push, they miscalculated how many people would leave PvP because of all-RNG gear, templates, AP/wep grind, alt unfriendly, and the rest of what Legion did to PvP.

They have plenty of clues about how to develop a fun environment in PvP because they've done so before and have 12 years XP in WoW, not to mention other titles. The problem is they don't give a fuck about that now. They're only out for max profits. They started this long ago and it became more apparent in WoD; Legion was a further extension of it.

See my post #61 above.

Some of you need to get real with the fact that no $4 Billion corporation is going to sit on its hands and allow "incompetent" design if it's going to hurt their bottom line. Any intelligent (non-fanboy) reading of the forums and blue posts before Legion would have told you what they were thinking, and their lack of response to issues raised during alpha & beta.

Blizzard's problem now is how not to revert most of the grind, RNG, etc. (keeping the profit gains) while still retaining players, and luring back those who quit. One evidence of that is how badly they borked the Arena titles and took so long to attempt a fix.

Once again they've over-reached and fucked not just the players but themselves too.

Blizzard thought that the "RNG on top of RNG" bs was gonna help keep players subscribed, that plan pretty much backfired on their asses.

You're right though, Blizzard is suppose to be a triple A company that knows what they're doing. I'm not expecting them to be perfect and have close to no flaws but recently they've been making alot of questionable design choices lately and that worries the playerbase.

[Deleted]

Kinda leaning more towards the second line but on the other hand, i enjoy playing pvp so meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ always could be worse.

[Professor Expert]

Some of you need to get real with the fact that no $4 Billion corporation is going to sit on its hands and allow "incompetent" design if it's going to hurt their bottom line. Any intelligent (non-fanboy) reading of the forums and blue posts before Legion would have told you what they were thinking, and their lack of response to issues raised during alpha & beta.

Blizzard's problem now is how not to revert most of the grind, RNG, etc. (keeping the profit gains) while still retaining players, and luring back those who quit. One evidence of that is how badly they borked the Arena titles and took so long to attempt a fix.

If you want to get into the business angle, the shareholders of ATVI pressured blizzard to "diversify" itself, and that took WoW from being 70% of the company's revenue to something like 20-30% that it is now. It's one of those cases where caving to the money men in the interest of more favorable short term gains resulted in products that are less profitable and less sustainable than ever before. Up to the point where they essentially decided to sabotage WoW by catering to the drones who play MOBAs it was steadily gaining subscribers.

Yeah, your source (your own ass hole) is pretty convincing.

The things that come out of my butthole are indeed more convincing than anything that came out of your facehole.

Blizzard thought that the "RNG on top of RNG" bs was gonna help keep players subscribed, that plan pretty much backfired on their asses.

You're right though, Blizzard is suppose to be a triple A company that knows what they're doing. I'm not expecting them to be perfect and have close to no flaws but recently they've been making alot of questionable design choices lately and that worries the playerbase.

I think their fixation on RNG is an attempt to milk short-term subs for as long as possible. They probably bought into the mythology of 'big data analytics' and think that they can reduce everything down to statistical analysis. I bet there are factions within the company of those who want the game to be more like it used to be, and those who are pushing for even more dumbing down and homogenization. Probably a hostile work environment.