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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeexbean View Post
    With people crying for flying mounts 24/7 and whining about how they basically want WOD back this doesnt surprise me. People care too much about the final destination raiding then the slow adventure. I feel legion would feel better if Blizz banned the add on that instantly puts you in groups for world quests when you enter the zone. It kills social interaction. People should be grouping up in trade chat to go out and do WQ's together not more of this quick cross realm crap
    Yes, please, more of the shit sandwich of an xpac that caused me to bail on a game I had played for the better part of a decade. Lol

    People wanting flying back being part of what's killing MMOs? Seeing that there's 2 games that offer such flight, I'm going with that being a nonfactor in the health of the entire genre.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    People wanting flying back being part of what's killing MMOs? Seeing that there's 2 games that offer such flight, I'm going with that being a nonfactor in the health of the entire genre.
    It's more about what the MMO playerbase has become than it is about any one point of contention. That playerbase has changed drastically over the years and now has a strong core of members who will find anything to complain vocally and aggressively about no matter what. WoW is full of people who are either too jaded to give anything but a cynical response or people who want everything to be instant and easy, and who will complain about anything that impedes a totally streamlines experience.

    Gone are the days when people would not play an RPG because they didn't have the time to commit to it instead of complaining that the RPG doesn't give them an option to play it with less time commitment. The average WoW player probably wouldn't even be able to sit through a standard combat phase in a game of D&D, let alone an RPG with a more complex combat system like GURPS has.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    It's more about what the MMO playerbase has become than it is about any one point of contention. That playerbase has changed drastically over the years and now has a strong core of members who will find anything to complain vocally and aggressively about no matter what. WoW is full of people who are either too jaded to give anything but a cynical response or people who want everything to be instant and easy, and who will complain about anything that impedes a totally streamlines experience.

    Gone are the days when people would not play an RPG because they didn't have the time to commit to it instead of complaining that the RPG doesn't give them an option to play it with less time commitment. The average WoW player probably wouldn't even be able to sit through a standard combat phase in a game of D&D, let alone an RPG with a more complex combat system like GURPS has.
    Your first paragraph sounds as much descriptive of the current US political climate and society as it does MMO playerbases. I'm not going any further down that rabbit hole here, though.

    It's so painful nowadays to get folks together consistently for a good ol' D&D campaign, least where I am. I'll find a couple of people who are interested, but trying to devise a schedule for it becomes an exercise in pulling one's own teeth. Oh well.

  4. #124
    Deleted
    This is like? Basically... a veteran player who has played the game for too long, or like me, for 10+ years by now, and has had a bit too much of it?

    A break would be perhaps a good idea?

    To the quoted text.

    Now the ability to kind of predict storylines etc. is somewhat a spot you'd have an argument on that they'd need "innovating" but I personally think it's a point far too wide and vague to argument over.

    It assumes that every storyline is soo daft in a sense, and easy to recognize that as the quoted text points, he "realises the traitor of the story long before the big reveal". I think such elements need concrete examples of where it was made too obvious, as it clearly comes down to the storytellers competence to hide that stuff from the player/reader/viewer/whatever.

    The argumented post though? I don't agree. I was at a different opinion earlier but I guess I had it more out of spite. I don't think the MMORPG genre is anywhere near dying.

    What makes other games a true obstacle to come to the scene with one, is the huge success of this one game and usually the problem with new titles launching and the QoL issues that they present.

    For example. I swapped to SWTOR when it launched, I bought the origin or whatever they called it, account. Played for a week or so and quit. Story was awesome, lore well made, one of the best in fact, but I believe it was probably a reason for quite a lot, is that the QoL problems it had, such as not being able to hold your camera freely in any position, but having it snap back to your ass every time you moved forward, was one of those annoyances and primary reasons people quit.
    That and in my case, the old true and tested existence of WoW and a character I already had many years into. Although, granted at the time it launched, I don't recall exactly, was it MoP? Or? There was a downtime in my WoW career where I just wanted something else, but something else just didn't satisfy on the level of quality. In fact, it was quite atrocious in SWTOR.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Teebone's Avatar
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    Grindy games aren't dying if they are done right. A good example of a more recent variety is GTA Online. It is more alive than ever since they added businesses as a form of income.

  6. #126
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    There is a good fix for "mmo dying". Make wow f2p then watch on 20 milions subs. Easy fix to do.
    Legion is the worst expansion
    BFA=Blizzard Failed Again
    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._google_trend/

  7. #127
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    Frankly I think the MMO genre stopped being "the thing" years ago. It can still be successful, not not anything like it was.
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  8. #128
    WoW's success and influence has stagnated the genre, nobody tries anything new. And if someone does nobody plays it because it's not WoW.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    WoW's success and influence has stagnated the genre, nobody tries anything new. And if someone does nobody plays it because it's not WoW.
    A rideecuoluously nefferiuous world of warcraft deydreems, becuose-a a sterlet ipprueches zee-a knuoingly lufely budeece-a ripper. Nicules, ilthuough sumuohet suozeed by a meestru deffeened by zee-a ruoffeeuon und a mestedun fur a pheelusupher, Bork Bork Bork! i zeenk vuo vill dee-a fery suon becuose-a it dues nut geefe-a credeet fery muoch tu zee-a knuoledge-a und zee-a puoer ouff zee-a peuple

  10. #130
    The next big thing is going to be VR(virtual reality)MMORPG. If someone does that right it will change everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwaynize View Post
    A rideecuoluously nefferiuous world of warcraft deydreems, becuose-a a sterlet ipprueches zee-a knuoingly lufely budeece-a ripper. Nicules, ilthuough sumuohet suozeed by a meestru deffeened by zee-a ruoffeeuon und a mestedun fur a pheelusupher, Bork Bork Bork! i zeenk vuo vill dee-a fery suon becuose-a it dues nut geefe-a credeet fery muoch tu zee-a knuoledge-a und zee-a puoer ouff zee-a peuple
    What the actual fuck?

  11. #131
    MMORPGs are very expensive to make, and only very large studios can afford to have one fail. MMOs take around $60-100 Million to create.

    MMOs have killed several moderately sized studios, and Blizzard would certainly have bankrupted without WoW's success. This means that people making MMOs must answer to a group of investors. This further means that most MMO creators cannot solely focus on the MMO. Investors don't invest into a game, they invest in a company. Games can be hit or miss, so they want long term stability. This results in several studios being forced to create several half-assed games while they focus on their MMO. This causes resources to be split, and ultimately cancellations/delays/failures to occur.

    Alternatively MMO developers can partner with a publisher. However, publishers historically are very conservative and prefer to re-skin games that have proven to be successful. Which is why shortly after WoW, we saw a lot of WoW clones, like we see with any popular games. The caveat here, is this re-skinning doesn't work for MMOs. It works well for console games, because you beat the single-player, mess around with the multi-player, then move on. But MMOs are perpetual games.

    MMOs are designed to consume all your free time. They are meant to be played to the exclusion of other games. Most everyone I know that really plays any MMO, exclusively plays that MMO and only dabbles in other games. People just can't sustain playing two MMOs at the same time. Furthermore, MMOs keep evolving, progressing, changing, and over the years you accrue a sense of being a veteran player along with a massive amount of rewards. Couple that with online bonds you form with friends, family, guild mates, etc, and it makes it very very hard to capture the attention of invested MMO'ers. A WoW clone is likely not going to make you give up 1, 5, 10+ years of online experience/rewards/relationships. It'd need to be something truly innovative.

    To put it simply, WoW is massive, it owns everything. Unless people migrate to a new game - en masse - people won't really like the new game and simply just return to WoW. I've seen it with every WoW-killer. Rift, GW2, SWtOR, FFXIV, Aion, ESO, etc. People will leave for a while, then come crawling back to WoW. The market is probably saturated at around 15-20 million players, and WoW probably has about 50% of that. Not at the same time of course, but in the cyclical nature of MMOs.

    WoW makes billions a year for Blizzard, and costs relatively nothing to maintain in comparison. It single-handedly funded ventures like Overwatch, HotS, Hearthstone, D3, Starcraft2, etc. So everyone is trying to copy it - which doesn't work for the reasons I mentioned earlier. It's too expensive to make for anyone to want to take any major risks, which results in WoW clones, which fails to pull a large number of players away from WoW because if you're choosing between WoW vs. WoW with Rifts or Lightsabers, you're going to pick WoW where all your friends/experiences/gear is. Slight mechanic/graphical changes won't make a WoW killer, because a WoW clone will never be better than the original. Everyone plays WoW, it has 10+ years of content, and you know it'll always be there. You never have to worry about all your effort going to waste.

    The MMORPG will continue to live on in WoW, and whatever Blizzard makes to ultimately replace WoW. I doubt another company has the resources to compete with WoW in the way that it needs competition. All we'll see for a while is WoW clones, until Blizzard sweeps in with WoW 2 and dominates the market again.


    Here's a good video where most of my argument comes from


    The future of MMOs will be in MMOs that aren't MMORPGs. MMOFPSs, MMORTSs, MMO-Racing, MMO-Brawlers, MMO-Puzzle games, etc.
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  12. #132
    Banned Tennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HordeFanboy View Post
    There is a good fix for "mmo dying". Make wow f2p then watch on 20 milions subs. Easy fix to do.
    I agree but they actually need to follow through and do this.

  13. #133
    I think the sub based kind are indisputably dying.

    Also I think they'll go back to being a fairly niche genre in the future.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    WoW's success and influence has stagnated the genre, nobody tries anything new. And if someone does nobody plays it because it's not WoW.
    Make up your mind, is it the fault of the developers or the community?

    But seriously, I pretty much agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #134
    Deleted
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    MMORPGs are very expensive to make, and only very large studios can afford to have one fail. MMOs take around $60-100 Million to create.

    MMOs have killed several moderately sized studios, and Blizzard would certainly have bankrupted without WoW's success. This means that people making MMOs must answer to a group of investors. This further means that most MMO creators cannot solely focus on the MMO. Investors don't invest into a game, they invest in a company. Games can be hit or miss, so they want long term stability. This results in several studios being forced to create several half-assed games while they focus on their MMO. This causes resources to be split, and ultimately cancellations/delays/failures to occur.

    Alternatively MMO developers can partner with a publisher. However, publishers historically are very conservative and prefer to re-skin games that have proven to be successful. Which is why shortly after WoW, we saw a lot of WoW clones, like we see with any popular games. The caveat here, is this re-skinning doesn't work for MMOs. It works well for console games, because you beat the single-player, mess around with the multi-player, then move on. But MMOs are perpetual games.

    MMOs are designed to consume all your free time. They are meant to be played to the exclusion of other games. Most everyone I know that really plays any MMO, exclusively plays that MMO and only dabbles in other games. People just can't sustain playing two MMOs at the same time. Furthermore, MMOs keep evolving, progressing, changing, and over the years you accrue a sense of being a veteran player along with a massive amount of rewards. Couple that with online bonds you form with friends, family, guild mates, etc, and it makes it very very hard to capture the attention of invested MMO'ers. A WoW clone is likely not going to make you give up 1, 5, 10+ years of online experience/rewards/relationships. It'd need to be something truly innovative.

    To put it simply, WoW is massive, it owns everything. Unless people migrate to a new game - en masse - people won't really like the new game and simply just return to WoW. I've seen it with every WoW-killer. Rift, GW2, SWtOR, FFXIV, Aion, ESO, etc. People will leave for a while, then come crawling back to WoW. The market is probably saturated at around 15-20 million players, and WoW probably has about 50% of that. Not at the same time of course, but in the cyclical nature of MMOs.

    WoW makes billions a year for Blizzard, and costs relatively nothing to maintain in comparison. It single-handedly funded ventures like Overwatch, HotS, Hearthstone, D3, Starcraft2, etc. So everyone is trying to copy it - which doesn't work for the reasons I mentioned earlier. It's too expensive to make for anyone to want to take any major risks, which results in WoW clones, which fails to pull a large number of players away from WoW because if you're choosing between WoW vs. WoW with Rifts or Lightsabers, you're going to pick WoW where all your friends/experiences/gear is. Slight mechanic/graphical changes won't make a WoW killer, because a WoW clone will never be better than the original. Everyone plays WoW, it has 10+ years of content, and you know it'll always be there. You never have to worry about all your effort going to waste.

    The MMORPG will continue to live on in WoW, and whatever Blizzard makes to ultimately replace WoW. I doubt another company has the resources to compete with WoW in the way that it needs competition. All we'll see for a while is WoW clones, until Blizzard sweeps in with WoW 2 and dominates the market again.


    Here's a good video where most of my argument comes from


    The future of MMOs will be in MMOs that aren't MMORPGs. MMOFPSs, MMORTSs, MMO-Racing, MMO-Brawlers, MMO-Puzzle games, etc.
    This is definitly a better post than i would've made.

    Though it only relates to the western market.

    Also, i don't think that a game needs to innovate for people to want in. It needs to work well and it needs support at the same level as wow. I wouldn't have returned if SWToR wasn't so outright broken and unsupported with raid content. I would've stayed in Guild wars 2 if it had the combat depth of the first game and the content support (good days of yearly expansions).
    The problem is the only WoW rival that is doing it right is FFXIV, but the slow global cooldown makes it feel like a step back from WoW in the gameplay department and alienates the same wow playerbase its trying to capture. Lucky for them, they have an FF fanbase to draw from aswell.

    But yeah, to create such a game requires dedication, and aside from square, no one else found a way to keep up with WoW.
    Companies nowadays want piles of money for yesterday and MMO's are services. It requires the company do a good and trustworthy job that players feel like they can invest their time on. It's more atractive to them to just sucker everyone with a mobile or cheap multiplayer game where they can charge fortunes for DLC content.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2017-01-28 at 04:02 AM.

  15. #135
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    MMORPGs are very expensive to make, and only very large studios can afford to have one fail. MMOs take around $60-100 Million to create.

    MMOs have killed several moderately sized studios, and Blizzard would certainly have bankrupted without WoW's success. This means that people making MMOs must answer to a group of investors. This further means that most MMO creators cannot solely focus on the MMO. Investors don't invest into a game, they invest in a company. Games can be hit or miss, so they want long term stability. This results in several studios being forced to create several half-assed games while they focus on their MMO. This causes resources to be split, and ultimately cancellations/delays/failures to occur.

    Alternatively MMO developers can partner with a publisher. However, publishers historically are very conservative and prefer to re-skin games that have proven to be successful. Which is why shortly after WoW, we saw a lot of WoW clones, like we see with any popular games. The caveat here, is this re-skinning doesn't work for MMOs. It works well for console games, because you beat the single-player, mess around with the multi-player, then move on. But MMOs are perpetual games.

    MMOs are designed to consume all your free time. They are meant to be played to the exclusion of other games. Most everyone I know that really plays any MMO, exclusively plays that MMO and only dabbles in other games. People just can't sustain playing two MMOs at the same time. Furthermore, MMOs keep evolving, progressing, changing, and over the years you accrue a sense of being a veteran player along with a massive amount of rewards. Couple that with online bonds you form with friends, family, guild mates, etc, and it makes it very very hard to capture the attention of invested MMO'ers. A WoW clone is likely not going to make you give up 1, 5, 10+ years of online experience/rewards/relationships. It'd need to be something truly innovative.

    To put it simply, WoW is massive, it owns everything. Unless people migrate to a new game - en masse - people won't really like the new game and simply just return to WoW. I've seen it with every WoW-killer. Rift, GW2, SWtOR, FFXIV, Aion, ESO, etc. People will leave for a while, then come crawling back to WoW. The market is probably saturated at around 15-20 million players, and WoW probably has about 50% of that. Not at the same time of course, but in the cyclical nature of MMOs.

    WoW makes billions a year for Blizzard, and costs relatively nothing to maintain in comparison. It single-handedly funded ventures like Overwatch, HotS, Hearthstone, D3, Starcraft2, etc. So everyone is trying to copy it - which doesn't work for the reasons I mentioned earlier. It's too expensive to make for anyone to want to take any major risks, which results in WoW clones, which fails to pull a large number of players away from WoW because if you're choosing between WoW vs. WoW with Rifts or Lightsabers, you're going to pick WoW where all your friends/experiences/gear is. Slight mechanic/graphical changes won't make a WoW killer, because a WoW clone will never be better than the original. Everyone plays WoW, it has 10+ years of content, and you know it'll always be there. You never have to worry about all your effort going to waste.

    The MMORPG will continue to live on in WoW, and whatever Blizzard makes to ultimately replace WoW. I doubt another company has the resources to compete with WoW in the way that it needs competition. All we'll see for a while is WoW clones, until Blizzard sweeps in with WoW 2 and dominates the market again.


    Here's a good video where most of my argument comes from


    The future of MMOs will be in MMOs that aren't MMORPGs. MMOFPSs, MMORTSs, MMO-Racing, MMO-Brawlers, MMO-Puzzle games, etc.
    Very good post and absolutely loved the video.
    Had to be Batman.

  16. #136
    I really hope MMORPGS dont die

  17. #137
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Everquest Next could have been MMO Version 3. Id say WoW was version 2. Games like GW2 and Wildstar are 2.5ish.

  18. #138
    No, if you look at the big picture, people are still playing MMOs just as always and they're still making tons of cash, including WoW. It's not dying. Maybe to you, but not to the majority of people.

  19. #139
    The phase of new MMORPG development is pretty much dead and the gmaing industry has already moved on but those that are estabilished already will live on.

  20. #140
    I don't believe the genre is dying, I think we are in just a bit of a lull at the moment.

    Wait until the next innovation comes out, like 4K UHD VR and a full body haptic feedback suit. Then get another juggernaut MMO like Everquest or WoW to come along and take advantage of the new technology. People will lose their shit all over again.

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